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charname is a half race?

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  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Actually the saga says they are bhaalspawns (more direct race ref cannot be done) and they mostly in the end are idntified as such and war eachother for it. And are even hunted for this (genocide).

    This ofc does not mean they all look like bhaal copies but their bhaal blood/race/taint give many tells on almost all. Hence simple to find and kill.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    I know they're referred to as Bhaalspawn. That's a epithet, not a racial identifier.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @tennisgolfball No, a God can be anything he wants. You carry his divine essence, not his race, or all Bhaalspawn would be Tiefling (offspring of some other race and an evil outsider). As for why the children aren't clones of the mother when she is the only one contributing "real" genetics to the situation, it's very possible that Bhaal made a recombination of the mother's genes when he sired the child. He contributes some measure of power, she contributes the remixed genetics, and voila! It's a baby Bhaalspawn!

    Turning into the Ravager is because whatever humanity/spirit you had is sucked away by Irenicus, allowing the Bhaal aspect of the Ravager (which all his spawn/children have inherited in some small part) to take over. It starts as an unintended side effect of Irenicus stealing your soul, and eventually, you learn how to draw on that power even with the soul back in your body, because with every other Bhaalspawn you slay, you are absorbing more of Bhaal's essence into you- and it gets stronger. It has nothing to do with Bhaal being some sort of unique race, any more than having the power of Spellfire makes someone not whatever race they started as any more. In the original game, encountering Sarevok awakened the essence of Bhaal within you, and it started trying to influence you to become the image of Bhaal. But you retain enough strength of will to choose your own course.

    As for "they seemed like a normal member of their race at first", so do wizards and sorcerers. So do Wild Mages. It doesn't make them any less whatever race they present as- it's a question of a power you have that others don't. Bhaal's essence is a power that CHARNAME and Imoen (and others) have that most do not. It doesn't make them any less the race that you chose in character creation. It's not like you are Iyachtu Xvim or something.

    Perhaps you missed the part of the wiki where it was stated that the difference between a Bhaalspawn and a normal member of their (humanoid) race was that "part of their soul was divine"? That's the only difference.
    Madhaxelminsterbooinyoureyes
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    I did not miss the part on the wiki that says they only seem to be of x race but are not. And even by the end cant even mask themselves as x race.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    Don't misquote the wiki. It doesn't call being a Bhaalspawn a race.
    Bhaalspawn mostly seemed like normal members of their race at first, so long as the race was humanoid (Abazigal was considered a half-breed according to the game). Part of their soul was divine, however, and this would eventually reveal itself, sometimes granting supernatural powers of different kinds but usually also tempting them to evil and murder. Individual reactions were very different, however. The personalities of individual Bhaalspawn were just as varied as those of other people, but they all had to deal with similar issues when their other side manifested itself. Some, such as Sarevok and most of the Five, fell to the temptation of power and embraced their darker sides in a quest for divinity. Others, weak-willed rather than power-hungry, had no such ambitious goals and may have even tried to do what was right, but reveled in bloodshed nevertheless. Examples include Abdel Adrian (Novelized name) and Gavid, a serial killer whose shade is encountered in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal. Yet other Bhaalspawn - such as Balthazar, and the game's protagonist if they "succeed" in enough of the tests in the Pocket Plane - conquered their darker nature and acted selflessly, turning their divine power into something unlike its original nature. Finally, some Bhaalspawn hadn't even had to deal with their inner taint before being found out and being persecuted or taken advantage of because of it, like Imoen, or some of the Bhaalspawn in Saradush in the game version of Throne of Bhaal. Some of the latter were simply ordinary people who wished no part in the prophecy. And yet, it was that very prophecy that predicted that Bhaal's children should be not only of all races but also of all alignments.
    elminsterbooinyoureyesMoczo
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    From the Forgotten Realms wiki again: "Bhaalspawn mostly seemed like normal members of their race at first, so long as the race was humanoid"

    Look up the word seem. Then work on your reading skills and maybe you will understand that it says they seemed to be of x race at first (and in the end it was plain that they could not even pass as only their race, their heritage and traits from bhaal make them unpassable as x race only).

    I dont do this to belittle you. I really think you need it.

  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    You seem to really like picking fights, don't you?

    That's not what the line means. Obviously Bhaalspawn aren't normal members of their race. Neither are mages or paladins. Being a Bhaalspawn results in all sorts of extra powers, urges, and physical characteristics, but none of that is the result of genetic makeup. Rather, it is the result of having divine essence in one's soul.

    And since your original point was that Bhaal's DNA would have been that of his original mortal race, possibly human, I'm not sure what your assertion actually is at this stage.
    elminsterKastionArchaosMoczo
  • KastionKastion Member Posts: 44
    @tennisgolfboll

    "Seems" just says something "appears" a certain way. It doesn't necessarily dictate if it IS that way or not, just that it appears to be. In this instance, the bhaalspawn "seems" to be a normal member of their race which means they appear to be. Of course things will be off about them since they half a divine aspect to their very souls so that's going to throw up some red flags when certain powers start to pop up.

    I think all you're arguing about is interpretation of words and what you think they mean compared to what other people think they mean. Everyone agrees the bhaalspawn isn't normal I'm sure. You think one way and that's fine for you if that's how you want to view it. Heck, some people still pronounce Drow like it rhymes with "No" instead of "how" and if that's how they want it to be, that's fine.
    Archaos
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2014
    @mlnevese

    I beg to differ.
    A god can't just do whatever he/she wants in the physical realm. They need an avatar for that, otherwise an avatar form would serve no purpose.

    "An avatar is a physical manifestation of a deity on Toril. It is usually significantly less powerful than the deity it represents." - Avatar, FR Wiki.

    Basically an avatar is a physical proxy of a deity, made to act on a physical level on Toril.

    @tennisgolfboll

    Being Bhaalspawn is not a race. Bhaal is not a race. Bhaal's race is "god" or "deity" or "outsider". All terms being correct. Not human, not elf, not whatever, not anymore since Bhaal became a god.

    A half-god/half-elf still appears like a full-blooded elf, the difference is that his soul is divine, since gods are divine and spiritual beings, not physical.

    An avatar of Bhaal in the form of Kazgaroth, is still a divine being in physical form. When he turned into an elf to impregnate an elven woman, the child was a full blooded elf with a divine soul.
    Hence a Bhaalspawn elf, potentially like CHARNAME or Illasera or Sendai.

    Is that so difficult to comprehend?
    elminsterKastion
  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    a Murder-God-Mud-Blood
    Silverstar
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Madhax said:

    You seem to really like picking fights, don't you?

    That's not what the line means. Obviously Bhaalspawn aren't normal members of their race. Neither are mages or paladins. Being a Bhaalspawn results in all sorts of extra powers, urges, and physical characteristics, but none of that is the result of genetic makeup. Rather, it is the result of having divine essence in one's soul.

    And since your original point was that Bhaal's DNA would have been that of his original mortal race, possibly human, I'm not sure what your assertion actually is at this stage.

    No i am trying to help you understand but i cant teach if you dont want to learn.

    Reread all posts and you will see human heritage isnt the point. Its bhaal heritage (whatever it is). Bhaal, like abraham in the bible, sires a new people. They are called bhaalspawns. They have many mother races but only one father race. In the end they are identified by their father race and a genocide takes place.

    Simple really and its all in the game.

    You might not want it to be like this but it is anyway.
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Archaos you dont seem to want to understand the concept of race and how it is identified. The fact that bhaalspawns are herded together and treated as a race in game makes then a race. Both socially and physical (which could be argued does not exist in dnd as it is a fantasy)
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    @Tennisgolfball Why did you post this thread as a question if you were just going to belittle anyone who disagrees with you and state your interpretation of this matter as fact?

    There's literally not a single person in this thread who has agreed with you yet. Groups of people have been herded together for plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with race. @Archaos understands exactly how divine heritage is treated in a DnD setting and has explained his reasoning perfectly. You telling him he doesn't know what he's talking about and simply restating your faulty reasoning from before is both pointless and insulting.
    elminsterKastionArchaos
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    edited January 2014
    Oh no im fin with you disagreeing in fact i like it. A fantasy world should and must be openended imo.

    I posted the thread after.my latest playthrough and i once thought as archaos did. But after that playthrough i started to ponder bhaal and his role in the bhaalspawns.

    And so i could connect the dots. How you at first (as charname) are lead to think that it is just you and sarevok that are bhaals children.

    but as years roll enormous amounts of children of bhaal are found and kill others and eachother. In the end whole armies seek the new race out (they are a race as dictated by their numbers and racial traits). The traits are so major that most cannot even pass for their mothers race anymore (as written on the wiki). The genocide takes place, the bhaalspawns are easily identified.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2014
    @tennisgolfboll

    Bhaalspawn are not a new "race" as defined in the rules. They're not half-something physically.

    They're just siblings, that's the ONLY thing they have in common. No genes, no half-race, no other common characteristic except that they're they children of Bhaal and their souls are half-divine.

    In detail:
    1) Children of Bhaal
    2) Display various abilities, some to a lesser extend.
    3) Disintegrate on death
    4) Show some degree of murderous impulse
    5) Have the potential to become gods

    What "traits" are you talking about? Charname looks normal. Imoen looks normal. Sarevok, Balthazar, Illasera, Sendai, all look normal for their race. (A small exception could be Sarevok's glowing eyes but that might be his Deathbringer training)

    Quoting the wiki:
    "Bhaalspawn mostly seemed like normal members of their race at first, so long as the race was humanoid (Abazigal was considered a half-breed according to the game). Part of their soul was divine, however, and this would eventually reveal itself, sometimes granting supernatural powers of different kinds but usually also tempting them to evil and murder. Individual reactions were very different, however."

    That's it. That's the only difference of Bhaalspawn. Their soul is divine. They don't start looking like monsters.
    Sylph
  • KastionKastion Member Posts: 44
    I think @Archaos has the best of it as well and explains it clearly.

    @Madhax

    It's best to let this one go. I know it's one of those insert-palm-to-face situations but he seems set in his ways. The best thing to do is just walk away from threads like this.

    Silverstar
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    edited January 2014
    Archaos said:

    @tennisgolfboll

    Bhaalspawn are not a new "race" as defined in the rules. They're not half-something physically.

    They're just siblings, that's the ONLY thing they have in common. No genes, no half-race, no other common characteristic except that they're they children of Bhaal and their souls are half-divine.

    In detail:
    1) Children of Bhaal
    2) Display various abilities, some to a lesser extend.
    3) Disintegrate on death
    4) Show some degree of murderous impulse
    5) Have the potential to become gods

    What "traits" are you talking about? Charname looks normal. Imoen looks normal. Sarevok, Balthazar, Illasera, Sendai, all look normal for their race. (A small exception could be Sarevok's glowing eyes but that might be his Deathbringer training)

    Quoting the wiki:
    "Bhaalspawn mostly seemed like normal members of their race at first, so long as the race was humanoid (Abazigal was considered a half-breed according to the game). Part of their soul was divine, however, and this would eventually reveal itself, sometimes granting supernatural powers of different kinds but usually also tempting them to evil and murder. Individual reactions were very different, however."

    That's it. That's the only difference of Bhaalspawn. Their soul is divine. They don't start looking like monsters.

    Of course they are a new mix of race. They dont all look like monsters (not anymore than an elf is a monster). It is very clear that they by tob are easily identified from their heritage. The game does not specifiy how, since they are all half race and bhaal is strange indeed its very different how they look. One thing is certain, they can no longer pretend to be only dwarf etc.

    children of bhaal dont all disintegrate when they die. Kill imoen and see. I am sorry but you are simply wrong here aswell
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2014
    @tennisgolfboll

    "Bhaalspawn seemed like normal of their race, so long as the race was humanoid"
    In other words, an elf looks like an elf since elves are humanoid. The ONLY exception it makes is for Abazigal which looks like a Half-Dragon.

    Tell me where in the game or the wiki it says that Bhaalspawn start looking like monsters and I'll check it out.

    Second, the only reason that she doesn't distentegrates is bacause she wasn't supposed to be a Bhaalspawn in the first game and in the second game you would want to pull your hair out if she was disintegrated on death with no possibility of resurrection.
    It's similar to NPCs that scale to your level when you recruit them. It's just more convenient for gameplay.

    Also "Facing Irenicus and her Bhaalspawn essence makes her more troubled and uncertain, but the innocence that allowed her to avoid the effects of the taint never really disappears" - Imoen wiki article

    That might be another explanation why she doesn't disintegrates but simply gameplay convenience is more probable.

    By the way, may I have the exact quote from the game? Don't quote Melissan though, she's a priestess of Bhaal, she can detect your soul if she wanted.
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457


    You lie about the wiki because it proves you are wrong. Here is (again) what it really says:


    From the Forgotten Realms wiki "Bhaalspawn mostly seemed like normal members of their race at first, so long as the race was humanoid "

    They seemed but were never just the motherrace. This only applies when they were young. Only as young could most seem to be normal race. By the end almost none could pretend to be just dwarf etc.



  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @tennisgolfboll

    ...You realise that elves, gnomes, drow, dwarves are ALL Humanoid, right? Humanoid doesn't mean human, it means human-like generally.

    And how they couldn't pretend that they weren't just a dwarf/elf/etc? I want the exact quote from Throne of Bhaal that says that ALL Bhaalspawn look like monsters in the end.
    Madhax
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    Archaos said:

    @tennisgolfboll

    ...You realise that elves, gnomes, drow, dwarves are ALL Humanoid, right? Humanoid doesn't mean human, it means human-like generally.

    Wow, if not understanding what "humanoid" means was the root of this whole argument, I'll headdesk so hard I won't be able to see straight for a week.
    ArchaosjackjackKastion
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Madhax said:


    Wow, if not understanding what "humanoid" means was the root of this whole argument, I'll headdesk so hard I won't be able to see straight for a week.

    Just making sure, because the misinterpretation of a single word can change many things.
  • SylphSylph Member Posts: 210
    Archaos said:

    Madhax said:


    Wow, if not understanding what "humanoid" means was the root of this whole argument, I'll headdesk so hard I won't be able to see straight for a week.

    Just making sure, because the misinterpretation of a single word can change many things.
    Huh, I read this thread and got the impression the misinterpretation was of the word "seemed" somehow being thought to mean "appeared to be but really wasn't" or something o_O
    jackjack
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @Sylph
    That might be true as well. Though it says "seemed". Someone that "seems" like a human, might not "be" human.
    A Bhaalspawn Human "looks" like a human but is not like every human. He's a Child of Bhaal and that means that their soul is divine.

    And by the way, @tennisgolfboll, "Bhaalspawn mostly seemed like normal members of their race at first, so long as the race was humanoid", means that Bhaalspawn "looked" like normal members of their race at first glance. Not in the beginning of their life.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited January 2014
    From a social standpoint there is the one guy in Saradush who says his family forced him to flee because a Dragon wanted him dead (because he was Bhaalspawn), and I'm sure there were others so I could kind of see if you were known about that there would be an issue of marginalization (marginalization due to heritage), but I think Sarevok's rise to power is a pretty good indication of the fact that relatively powerful Bhaalspawn could interact with ordinary people without giving off any indication that they were Bhaalspawn. So I really don't see how the concept of race enters into it because its largely Bhaalspawn leading the armies that are killing Bhaalspawn. Like in the case of Yaga Shura and Saradush and the case of Sarevok hunting you and Gorion down with his party.
  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    edited January 2014

    Madhax said:

    You seem to really like picking fights, don't you?

    That's not what the line means. Obviously Bhaalspawn aren't normal members of their race. Neither are mages or paladins. Being a Bhaalspawn results in all sorts of extra powers, urges, and physical characteristics, but none of that is the result of genetic makeup. Rather, it is the result of having divine essence in one's soul.

    And since your original point was that Bhaal's DNA would have been that of his original mortal race, possibly human, I'm not sure what your assertion actually is at this stage.

    No i am trying to help you understand but i cant teach if you dont want to learn.

    Reread all posts and you will see human heritage isnt the point. Its bhaal heritage (whatever it is). Bhaal, like abraham in the bible, sires a new people. They are called bhaalspawns. They have many mother races but only one father race. In the end they are identified by their father race and a genocide takes place.

    Simple really and its all in the game.

    You might not want it to be like this but it is anyway.
    It's hard to say this seriously (perhaps more so because arguments on the above matter are moving a bit toward the vociferous side), but:
    You do all realize that what you're disagreeing on is not the nature of a Bhaalspawn, but the semantics of what "race" means.

    Which is cool. Words are interesting. And we have relatively few to convey many, many nuanced thoughts.
    But maybe I just wanted to point out that you two are using different definitions of what it means to be a "race" (biological/metaphysical/ancestral/etc.) and but arguing about a completely different issue. That's never going to be productive as is. :)
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    @syllog

    The meaning of "race" is much more cut-and-dry in DnD than it is in real life, though. Right?
    Archaosjackjack
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    @Madhax

    Indeed. I prefer the word "heritage", instead.
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