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Were major battles made more difficult from the original? How much?

I've just finished the game and was curious about this. Compared to when I had first played BG some 15 years ago, I died a lot less and leveled easier because my knowledge of D&D and tactical aptitude is now vastly superior to when I was a kid. For example, using all the proper weapons for each character, kiting enemies like wolves, ogres and bears, learning to instantly pause and jump spellcasting enemies with quick spells/abilities to interrupt them before they get off a horror/mirror image....

... however, on boss battles I died a lot more than I remember from 15 years ago. It was crazy. That guy in Nashkel swarmed me once, ok. But Davaeorn caught me in his instant-lightning-bolt several times, wiping the entire party. He was also surprisingly resilient. The battle atop the Iron Throne was also very difficult, with at least 4 casters throwing save or lose spells at me. The party at the beginning of the Undercity with their crazy mages and archers that shoot bombs - I had to reload at least 10 times, don't remember that from before.

When Sarevok revealed Tazok, Angelo and Semaj (the latter two being full of contigencies and the room's traps being undisarmable), I was like "WTF". The amount of spells that rains on you the very second the battle begins is insane. Sarevok also seems to attack faster and deal a lot more damage (which is way more dangerous than high magic resistance he had before). I probably had to reload the final battle 20 times. And that was after stuffing each character with every kind of potion and scroll known to man! I feel happy but a bit sadomasochistic after that battle. Were they really made that more difficult or I just have a rosy memory of the past?

Anyways, is there an official list of changes in comparison to the original game somewhere, like a BG to BG:EE complete patch log?

Comments

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,290
    There isn't any official, comprehensive list yet, but @typo_tilly has been working on one for some time. As it is, the idea behind making it is also the reason why it takes a long time to put together: there are a whole lot of changes introduced that it might be nice to know about.

    To answer your main question more directly though, afaik there hasn't been any particular specific changes to make boss type encounters more difficult.

    Marmotbiffyclanger
  • NoonNoon Member Posts: 171
    edited January 2014
    I think only Sarevok fight has been changed, with Sarevok losing his magic resistance, which is bad imho,
    Here he lies helplessly because of my spell and we beat his face easily :
    image
    and Semaj getting a sequencer most notably (or is it with SCS only ?).

  • unkinheadunkinhead Member Posts: 107
    Baldur's Gate is simply a challenging game in general. But if you progress a certain way, or metagame properly, it becomes much easier, which isn't as fun.

    For example, the final fight and the one before it would be a joke if your CHarname was an Archer and you bought 20-50 Arrows of Detonation for the fight.

    It just depends on each unique playthrough, which is what makes it so great imho.

    My first playthrough was with a Kensage for BG (just Kensai for BG) and it was moderately difficult, i also didn't use ANY potions, and had a four man squad...In retrospect, i don't even remember how i did it, but i know i kind of cheesed Semaj with traps.

    My second one, with an archer, was a breeze, with a 6 man party.

    Third, Archer Solo (i like the class), was very easy as well

    fourth, Full party with charname cleric, extremely difficult, i drank 5000 potions and it was still extremely difficult even with a plethora of NPC classes.

    All of this though (other than the traps for semaj) is assuming you are approaching the fight in a non-cheesy way. Baldur's Gate is just a very difficult game in general, only through experience and metagame knowledge (and sometimes luck) does it ever become "easy" and when it does, you install SCS and such. Although i think BG2 is much more difficult.

  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    I don't think the final fight has been made more difficult in BGEE. In fact, I think it may have lost some difficulty- Sarevok doesn't seem to have the Magic Resistance that he used to.

    That being said, it is usually a difficult fight (especially if you're playing SCS and have to defeat his friends first). I think it's always been difficult- BG1, BgTutu, BGEE. Those undisarmable traps seem to get me every other time.

  • vangoatvangoat Member Posts: 212
    The first time I played through BG (15 years ago) I found Sarevok very difficult.

    After playing through BGEE I was suprised that I literally beat him down within a couple of rounds, using a f/m/c, kagain and dorn buffed to the extreme. He went down before the casters basically had a chance to do anything. I was so underwhelmed I reloaded and tried attack his cronies first. The end result was still the same, Sarevok copped a beatdown. So I don't know if it was different, more than likely I just know how to buff my characters better now

  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 388
    The fact that you have a Potion Case this time around really tips the difficulty in your favor should you hoard all of the potions you come across and use them in the tough battles.

    tbone1GreenWarlock
  • Midnight910Midnight910 Member Posts: 6
    I found the final fight much easier. I used to cheese Sarevok. Summon monsters to hold him while I filled him with arrows. Paste his mage when he got too close, then continue using Sarevok for target practice. This time, I had a Cavalier, Ajantis, Rasaad, Yeslick, Imoen, and Neera. Everyone had melee weapons and we mopped the floor with him. Curb Stomp Battle.

  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 368
    Changes to the base engine have unforeseen affects on difficulty. Dual-wielding makes your characters more choppy, but replacing that shield can be a huge increase in damage (~20% for something hitting at about 10s) You also can't abuse area transitions so much. I have no idea how much was done on the scripting end where I don't even look but there are a lot of things that people just assume were always the way they are, but are actually huge changes. For example, BGEE Jaheira has 2 points in club. I saw someone complaining about this being a trap selection in BG1 since there were no magical clubs in the old days. Of course, when you remember how BG1 skills worked, that's silly because there WAS no club skill back then. It was blunt weapons, which covered staves as well, which made perfect sense given the number of magic staves lying around.

    Is it possible some of these fights got harder due to these changes? Maybe. It's hard to say for sure given the variability of the game system. One time I fought the demon knight and he managed to perfectly dispel charname, stun him, and chop him to bits. One reload later, my whole group butchers him in like 2 rounds flat. That's just how some games go.

    atcDaveDreadKhan
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    The game is easier than it was IMO :
    - tosc makes it easier (like tob does it for soa) by raising the cap and adding items (like free ring of free action from the start of the game which synergize more than nicely with the already OP web)
    - dual wielding is too strong (also true in soa) and did not exist in vanilla bg1.
    - some kits are completely unbalanced for bg1. For example :
    - berserker rage beats all the spellcasters of the game (since they just cast save or else spells)
    - poison weapon (assassin, blackguard) beats everything in the game
    - extended spell selection also makes things easier especially if i remember correctly, there was no stoneskin or MMM in vanilla bg1. Both spells are too strong by bg standards (almost no dispell magic, not enough stoneskin bypassing damage)

    As for boss fights, the top of the iron throne fight was already challenging (impossible?) if you faced it head on without proper preparation.
    Sarevok without his magic resistance is weak, falling very easily to spells like magic missile (a sorc has 12 magic missiles + potentially 2 more from a sequencer : that's 190 unavoidable damage for sarevok ...)

    Finally the things that makes it easier is the age of the game and internet. Nowdays, everybody knows the best tactis to deal with any situation : what are the best spells, the best buffs, how some abilities can change the game. (i discovered the awesomeness of poison weapon very recently)

    JLee
  • frosgrimfrosgrim Member Posts: 2
    I played a lot of BG original years ago. When I just faced Sarevok I assumed he was still MR and didn't even try to use magic against him. Sigh. Thus, I found the final battle a bit of a challenge with Angelo lobbing explosion arrows constantly. I developed a good tactic and was able to beat them pretty easy once I figured out how to take Angelo down early.

    I deliberately didn't look at any of the message boards on my first play through of EE because I wanted to experience it raw so to speak. Did it with a F/C male dwarf. Tons of fun.

    Sarevok loosing MR is disappointing as that made him a darn hard fight in the original.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,508
    Twani said:

    I don't think the final fight has been made more difficult in BGEE. In fact, I think it may have lost some difficulty- Sarevok doesn't seem to have the Magic Resistance that he used to.

    That being said, it is usually a difficult fight (especially if you're playing SCS and have to defeat his friends first). I think it's always been difficult- BG1, BgTutu, BGEE. Those undisarmable traps seem to get me every other time.

    He used to have magic resistance in the original BG1. Totsc actually was what changed that, not BGEE.

    ThacoBellDreadKhan
  • HerrderGezeitenHerrderGezeiten Member Posts: 139
    edited January 2014
    Why is his MR gone?

    That sounds more than a little bit disappointing.

    The game is wwwaaaayyyyy easier.

    Sorcer, Mage, Cleric many new Spells (Stone Skin ? Start with Find Familiar ?? Minor Sequencer ???)
    +Scrolls -> why is there a 20 Stack from Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to buy ? (and other Spells)

    Kits with strong Bonis.
    New Weapons
    More Ammunition (Explosiv Arrows are not so rare any more,.. )
    Bags are importent 2 -> more place is more Combat Items with you.
    Ankegh Armor + ( +1/+2 RK/Save Item )

    Post edited by HerrderGezeiten on
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 655
    To be honest it is good if Sarevok lost his magic resistance. It makes so little sense: throughout the game, mages are easily the most ferocious combatants. When you get to the big boss fights (including the final fight in ToB) your mages are reduced to near uselessness. It's unsatisfying.

    ThacoBellDreadKhan
  • MoczoMoczo Member Posts: 229

    To be honest it is good if Sarevok lost his magic resistance. It makes so little sense: throughout the game, mages are easily the most ferocious combatants. When you get to the big boss fights (including the final fight in ToB) your mages are reduced to near uselessness. It's unsatisfying.

    But that was half the fun! You needed to come up with new tactics on the fly as old ones bounced off him like he was some kind of crazy spiky Superman. The new version...hell, in my last run I had Jaheira summon a wood nymph, and it Held Monster on him ten seconds into the fight. Not epic at all.

    Noon
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,508

    To be honest it is good if Sarevok lost his magic resistance. It makes so little sense: throughout the game, mages are easily the most ferocious combatants. When you get to the big boss fights (including the final fight in ToB) your mages are reduced to near uselessness. It's unsatisfying.

    Plus he's shown to be susceptable to gorion's magic. Kind of hard to explain how that would be the case but later he would have 90% resistance while wearing the same helmet and armor.

    jackjackArtonaThacoBell
  • TaearTaear Member Posts: 90

    To be honest it is good if Sarevok lost his magic resistance. It makes so little sense: throughout the game, mages are easily the most ferocious combatants. When you get to the big boss fights (including the final fight in ToB) your mages are reduced to near uselessness. It's unsatisfying.

    I really agree with this. I know there are spells that reduce resistance but honestly why would you be spending your time casting those when you can beat the enemy up much faster?
    It's just like Final Fantasy, the only times you'd want to cast a debuff is on the things that are totally immune to it.

    DreadKhan
  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 203
    edited February 2014
    Perhaps Sarevok lost the source of his magic resistance, as the code for the game was redone? If it was given by some item, or even a spell, and it was somehow forgotten or then got removed due to magic resistance making Sarevok a bit too difficult to deal with, especially when he is melee range and both his attacks per round and damage seem to be what a player character might be able to pull off in late Soa/early ToB?

  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Maybe Sarevok lacking MR makes more sense for the story.
    But it can make the final fight anticlimatic : like Mozco said, sometimes you just land a hold person and the fight is over. Or he get stuck in one of the webs traps, or he dies in Semaj cloudkill,...

    Or you just kill him with magic missile : 1 mage with the ring of wizardry can cast 12 of them (14 with minor sequencer) : that's 60d4+60 against which he cannot defend...

    What is funny is that the first time i did BGEE with my solo sorc, i was assuming he was magic resistant. So i relied on MMM and summoning wand to kill him which was painfully slow. Only later did i discovered that he add no MR anymore...

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,508
    If you want to fight a much harder version of sarevok just type in

    C:CreateCreature("Sarevo2")

    Its got 999 health, -20 AC, 100% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, 100% cold resistance, 50% resistance against physical attacks,

    He has the same dialog as the Koveras but its technically a different creature file (more health and less physical resistances).

    Ohh and he gets an auto-kill ability. Just to make things more interesting :D

    jackjackdomeplsffsJuliusBorisovThacoBell
  • ZagaciousZagacious Member Posts: 63
    edited July 28
    elminster said:

    If you want to fight a much harder version of sarevok just type in

    C:CreateCreature("Sarevo2")

    Its got 999 health, -20 AC, 100% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, 100% cold resistance, 50% resistance against physical attacks,

    He has the same dialog as the Koveras but its technically a different creature file (more health and less physical resistances).

    Ohh and he gets an auto-kill ability. Just to make things more interesting :D

    3 years later but i just wanted to comment that the normal 'sarevo' also has an autokill ability, but it seems like he rarely fires it. after 3 times of spawning he only used it once, either that or he has some ability that lets him crit for crazy amounts cause he instantly killed a guy i had with 200 hp (for testing purposes)

    Edit: Note this is BG EE 1.3 for me

    Post edited by Zagacious on
    JuliusBorisovprocco
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,819
    Zagacious said:

    elminster said:

    If you want to fight a much harder version of sarevok just type in

    C:CreateCreature("Sarevo2")

    Its got 999 health, -20 AC, 100% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, 100% cold resistance, 50% resistance against physical attacks,

    He has the same dialog as the Koveras but its technically a different creature file (more health and less physical resistances).

    Ohh and he gets an auto-kill ability. Just to make things more interesting :D

    3 years later but i just wanted to comment that the normal 'sarevo' also has an autokill ability, but it seems like he rarely fires it. after 3 times of spawning he only used it once, either that or he has some ability that lets him crit for crazy amounts cause he instantly killed a guy i had with 200 hp (for testing purposes)
    Would that be Deathbringer Assault?

    ArtonaDreadKhan
  • ZagaciousZagacious Member Posts: 63
    edited July 28
    ThacoBell said:

    Zagacious said:

    elminster said:

    If you want to fight a much harder version of sarevok just type in

    C:CreateCreature("Sarevo2")

    Its got 999 health, -20 AC, 100% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, 100% cold resistance, 50% resistance against physical attacks,

    He has the same dialog as the Koveras but its technically a different creature file (more health and less physical resistances).

    Ohh and he gets an auto-kill ability. Just to make things more interesting :D

    3 years later but i just wanted to comment that the normal 'sarevo' also has an autokill ability, but it seems like he rarely fires it. after 3 times of spawning he only used it once, either that or he has some ability that lets him crit for crazy amounts cause he instantly killed a guy i had with 200 hp (for testing purposes)
    Would that be Deathbringer Assault?
    Not sure what that is or what caused it, all I know is he did 200+ damage in one hit, I have no mods. BG 1 EE 1.3. A character I had made for screwing around who had -6 AC , 200 HP, 19 Constitution, and around 50+ phys resist and some magic resist, but suddenly he was just instantly killed by a 'sarevo' I spawned. It looked like he wasn't even attacking when I died that's how I remember. The 2 other times I spawned him he didn't use the ability or w/e it is at all.

    I suspected it had something to do with me spawning him in Candlekeep, like the script recognizes when you're spawning him and makes him instant kill you randomly, but I really have no idea.

    Edit: I looked up Deathbringer assault and I see now.. that's pretty much an instant kill spell for anyone in BG EE who's not mega cheating..

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    I find it funny that people refer to a fight as easy because the target failed a save they happen to have very good odds of making. Sarevok in ToTSC/EE is not an easy fight unless you've either meta'd or gotten very lucky. I've soloed him with a cleric before, but I very much meta'd.

    I've also went at him solo with a bard, which should have been easy, except he somehow couldn't be stunned with the Wand of Paralysis/Wand of Stinky Cheese. Since I was counting on stunning him, that made for a very unpleasant arrow-plinking spree for my Bard.

    Does Sarevok actully have his Deathbringer thingey in EE? Good to know, I avoid meleeing him without party, but that gives me a very good reason to do so!

    ThacoBellArtona
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,508
    edited July 29
    Zagacious said:

    elminster said:

    If you want to fight a much harder version of sarevok just type in

    C:CreateCreature("Sarevo2")

    Its got 999 health, -20 AC, 100% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, 100% cold resistance, 50% resistance against physical attacks,

    He has the same dialog as the Koveras but its technically a different creature file (more health and less physical resistances).

    Ohh and he gets an auto-kill ability. Just to make things more interesting :D

    3 years later but i just wanted to comment that the normal 'sarevo' also has an autokill ability, but it seems like he rarely fires it. after 3 times of spawning he only used it once, either that or he has some ability that lets him crit for crazy amounts cause he instantly killed a guy i had with 200 hp (for testing purposes)

    Edit: Note this is BG EE 1.3 for me
    Must have a mod active because it doesn't have any kind of autokill ability (and wouldn't do 200 damage in a round). He uses a 1d10+5 sword and has 18/100 strength.

  • ZagaciousZagacious Member Posts: 63
    elminster said:

    Zagacious said:

    elminster said:

    If you want to fight a much harder version of sarevok just type in

    C:CreateCreature("Sarevo2")

    Its got 999 health, -20 AC, 100% magic resistance, 100% fire resistance, 100% cold resistance, 50% resistance against physical attacks,

    He has the same dialog as the Koveras but its technically a different creature file (more health and less physical resistances).

    Ohh and he gets an auto-kill ability. Just to make things more interesting :D

    3 years later but i just wanted to comment that the normal 'sarevo' also has an autokill ability, but it seems like he rarely fires it. after 3 times of spawning he only used it once, either that or he has some ability that lets him crit for crazy amounts cause he instantly killed a guy i had with 200 hp (for testing purposes)

    Edit: Note this is BG EE 1.3 for me
    Must have a mod active because it doesn't have any kind of autokill ability (and wouldn't do 200 damage in a round). He uses a 1d10+5 sword and has 18/100 strength.
    BG EE 1.3 no mods

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,508
    Sarevok does 1d10+5 damage, with a +6 strength damage bonus. So the most damage each of his hits will do each turn is 21 (I think he gets 3 hits per round since he is hasted).

    If your character was unarmed that is another +4 per hit. Bringing it up to 25. 25x3 is 75.

    So even if your character was unarmed and had no helmet (which means double damage on criticals) the most he could do in a round is 150. But even that is under pretty extreme circumstances.

    batoorJuliusBorisov
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 556
    edited July 29
    Shouldn't he technically have Deathbringer assault either way though? I mean it's part of his arsenal in ToB after all. Or was it a matter of game balance?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,819
    Well, Sarevok has DB assault in his cutscene with Gorion. Whether that translates to him having it in BG1EE, I dunno. It was added in ToB originally, but EE does use a an upgraded version of the BG2 engine.

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,494
    Well, Sarevok should not have an ability that lets him instakill even the most durable party member simply because he got lucky.

    Deathbringer Assault is not a good mechanic to pit the player against because there wouldn't be way to play around it other than to simply not let Sarevok near you. Which would basically give the player even more of an incentive to kite him to death.

    Artona
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