Black Pits Questions

Heindrich

I've decided to necromance this thread and update it rather than create an entirely new one.

This is the party that I intend to take through Black Pits 1 and 2.

Lilly Black - Elf Mage (Party Leader)
Str: 8
Dex: 15
Con: 11
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

Sima Kang - Human Sorcerer
Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

Sima Jin - Human Kensai => Mage
Str: 15
Dex: 17
Con: 15
Int: 17
Wis: 12
Cha: 12

Heindrich Lowen - Human Cavalier
Str: 17
Dex: 12
Con: 17
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

Otori Takeo - Half-Elf Fighter/Thief*
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 15
Wis: 10
Cha: 15
This is how he took shape with the help of forumites

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/29033/class-suggestion-for-otori-takeo#latest

* Special Abilities (Once per day) at Thief Levels

All implemented as Innate Abilities

lv1:
+ Sleep

lv4:
+ Invisibility
+ Blur
+ Mirror Image
+ Poison Weapon

lv7:
+ Improved Invisibility

lv13:
+ Mislead

lv20:
+ Simulacrum

Special Penalties:
+ Cannot wear armour heavier than Splint Mail.
+ Cannot use shield.

Xiaolongnü - Half-Elf Kensai/Druid*
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 15

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/29442/help-me-theory-craft-this-character#latest

*Special Abilities (Once Per Day) at Druid Levels: (As Innate Abilities and Priest Spells)

lv1:
+ Hold Person (Innate): Represents the robes... but probably gonna be useless later on. Also it shows up as a spell in the UI, even though I added it as an innate ability.

+Slow Poison (Innate): Her sect appears to have the secrets to many poisons and their anti-dotes. This represents the mystical anti-dote potions she carries. This will probably be crucial in a party with no other divine casters.

lv4:
+ Poison Weapon (Innate): Represents the times when she occasionally uses the knowledge of poisons offensively, most typically through throwing needles (darts).

+ Blur (Innate): Represents her defensive techniques to confuse enemies and reduce the chance of being hit.

lv5:
+ Summon Insects (Spell): Her bees are iconic, this can represent unleashing a small swarm at a foe.

+ Offensive Spin (Innate): Seems fitting for some of her offensive moves, where she uses her robes to strike at enemies with blur of strikes.

lv9:
+ Insect Plague (Spell): Again her bees, but this time, a much larger swarm.

lv14:
+ Creeping Doom (Spell): She unleashes ALL her bees! lol

My (new) questions are:

1) I've heard BP is harder than the core game. Does the above party have a fighting chance given their non-min/max'd stats? I intend to play on Core Rules.

2) Can you import a BP 1 party into BP 2? Is that 'intended'?

3) Is there much of a plot to BP 1 and 2? Like enough to bother with roleplaying it? Are they linked? Does it make sense?

4) How is it possible to justify the ridiculous speed of level-ups in BP from a RP perspective?

Edit: Updated Custom Class bonuses/penalties

nano

The cleric is pretty strong if you prebuff. There's one trap level but you're better off using the cleric spell and walking around them as there's no time to disarm mid battle.

Dungeonnoob

1: The cleric heals will probably be disrupted,but the saves are decent.
2: It was a chest i could not open on my first run thru pits 2,didn't have a thief and i didn't memo knock
spell with my sorc.
3: I would go with Sven methinks.I would prefer a Inquisitor if you lose your mages in a battle,true seeing is
a must have.
4: I buffed only before the last 3 battles if i remember correct.

booinyoureyes

Hey Heindrich my buddy, just so you know hiding in shadows is very very hard in the Black Pits so backstabbing may not be the best way to go.

I'd actually go for the archer, since oftentimes in the harder fights against larger parties of baddies they start on the other side of the map. In these situations disrupting their spells is key, so an archer would be great.

The dwarven defender would also be awesome for running up ahead and tanking.

For the cleric, I found a couple spells to be super helpful in the Black Pits (which I actually enjoyed a lot despite being more of a role-playing type BG fan). Command makes the first couple fights a lot easier (sleep makes it a joke). Entangle is extremely powerful since oftentimes the most difficult opponents will be bunched up with only one archer (one archer in particular is absolutely devastating though).

I would actually recommend either a Shapeshifter or an Avenger instead for divine (oops, corrected. said arcane before) casting (I dunno the characters you are making to say if this class will fit role-playing. I only recognize lily black from a two second lets play video i checked out)

Due to the higher level cap, avengers will get fifth level spells, meaning they can cast Chaos ( sooooo powerful in the BPs). Web is amazing for the same reasons entangle is for the black pits. Finally chromatic orb rocks because of the high levels a druid reaches! So their special spells really are awesome

Shapeshifters can become werewolves with really good magic resistance, which can be super helpful in the hardest fights against other "parties". It might not be as great later on, but in the early game the werewolf form is absolutely dominant!

Enjoy!

Heindrich

@booinyoureyes

Thanks for ur time and advice! I guess I hadn't considered that stealth might be quite tricky in a low level rogue character in an arena situation, which I suppose is realistic.

I've gotta say though... I don't particularly like Druids from a RP-perspective, it just doesn't appeal to me much, even though I did use Cernd for parts of my BG 2 LP, and found him to be pretty good, even in the SoA late-game. However, I just don't particularly like the idea of magically transforming into various monsters, especially the cheesy/weird ones like Jelly or Golems, which don't even have brains! As u can probably tell, I do love Arcane casters! lol

Anyways an intro of the above party and their origins:

Lilly Black - u know already, from Tord's "Misadventures of Lilly Black LPs"

Sima Jin - A character I initially created for a novel I hope to write, and somebody (whose personality) I use for various RPG games. He is protagonist of my first full playthrough of BG 1 and BG 2, including my first LP with BG 2 Vanilla. I have plans to 'reboot' the character with a BG EE to BG 2 EE full saga playthrough, and this time he starts as a Kensai, with plans to dual-class into Mage at the very start of BG 2 EE. I know that this does mean that he will be pretty useless in Black Pits 1 and BG 1 EE.

Sima Kang - A character I created for a MP game with a few other forumites. Vaguely based on Jin, and in the 'Black Pits reality', Jin's younger, but more talented and confident/arrogant half-brother.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/27270/the-bhaalspawn-journals-roleplaying-multiplayer-game/p1

Heindrich Lowen - A character from Advanced Heroquest, a British table-top D&D style game based on the Warhammer Fantasy setting. It's what got me into the whole fantasy genre, and 'Heinrich Lowen' was a archetypical 'human warrior' in a party of 4 that the game manual included as example characters for the game. At 10-11 years old, I wasn't creative enough to come up with my own character, and somehow identified the most with the sword-swinging white dude in plate armour (to be fair, the other options were a dwarf, an elf and an old wizard), and ended up using Heinrich for all sorts of games, as well as online things like this forum. At some stage I mispelt Heinrich as 'Heindrich', and that name has stuck.

Otori Takeo - the protagonist of the Tales of the Otori novels, and the inspiration for me to attempt to write novels of my own. And thus the spiritual inspiration for Sima Jin too, although the characters are pretty different in terms of skills and ideologies.

Amelia - Based off one of the best people I have ever known, and one of my best friends, who sadly died in an accident last year. She was so nice that I sometimes used her in a healer/carer role in RPG games, because it reflected her character. I completed Avernum 3 with her in a 6-man party made up of characters mostly based off myself and real life friends.

Torallion Leafstar - Archetypal Wood Elf in the example party of Advanced Heroquest.

Sven Hammerhelm - Archetypal dwarf warrior in the example party of Advanced Heroquest.

Heindrich

^^ Bump for updated questions!

KidCarnival

Some more general advice:

1. Do not create a squishy character in slot 1. You can't rearrange the party by moving portraits up and down; the character in slot 1 will always appear in front of the group. Create your tank or damage dealer first, then the other melee/heavy armor, then the casters last. (i.e. DD #1, Tank #2, Cleric #3, Druid or Archer #4, Bard #5, Mage #6)

2. There are some roleplay opportunities; moreso in BP2. You can export your BP1 party and then import them in BP2. It is consistant; in BP2, you are assumed to be the champion of Baeloth' arena and meet certain characters from there, too.

3. Backstabbing is possible in both Black Pits, but it's tedious to stealth. A thief is not really neccessary. Either take a Stalker, Assassin, Shadowdancer or a multiclass thief who can stealth via spells/scrolls or potions.

4. A cleric for healing isn't neccessary. Your health will be restored after each fight. Unbugged, only permanent effects like level drain have to be removed by a cleric, and you can do that with scrolls. Cleric buffs are awesome though - in Black Pits 1, you can prebuff before beaming into battle. In BP2, that is not possible, but the arena is larger and enemies will usually spend the first few turns buffing anyway. (I say unbugged because in BP1, there is one fight that may result in permanent Deafness - that is a bug. It happened to me a few times. Sometimes, it just goes away on its own, sometimes you're stuck with it. However, that fight is somewhat random - it's portals summoning enemies and you don't know what you'll get. If you are lucky, the one with a risk to cause perma-deafness won't be in the fight at all.)

Skaffen

In BP2 sequencers and contingencies rule. You can pre- buff in BP1 but not in but can store the spells in the bunk room. So keep that in mind that your party will start combat with their pants down and have only 1-2 rounds to cast (which I typically use for summons, truesight and have chain contis set up on sight of enemy).

One other good tip: Enchanted Weapon is one of the most useful spells in BP2. You get +3 melee weapons for the whole party so you can save your gold for more important/better stuff. It lasts 24h so you can cast and rest snd get your 4th level spells back.

Heindrich

KidCarnival said:

1. Do not create a squishy character in slot 1. You can't rearrange the party by moving portraits up and down; the character in slot 1 will always appear in front of the group. Create your tank or damage dealer first, then the other melee/heavy armor, then the casters last. (i.e. DD #1, Tank #2, Cleric #3, Druid or Archer #4, Bard #5, Mage #6)

@KidCarnival
Ah... that's gonna be a problem... I had intended for a pure mage with 11 Cons to be party leader.

Why oh why?! can't u switch positions? What is with that?! Also just how bad is it, like are there battles where the party leader is forced to fight in a melee situation? Or an enemy starts right in ur face? How important is this party position ranking?

KidCarnival

Picture the triangle-leader-in-front formation. That is how you will load in the arena, always. Enemies will automatically target the nearest character, and that is always the one you created first. You can switch the portraits/order and formation around, to have a different leader though (basically, shopface). If you create your fighter first, you can still have the 11 con mage as leader by moving him to #1 once you start the game. How you load in the arena depends only on the order of creating the characters, not in which order you put them later.
Edit: I'm trying to say: The formation and order you have "backstage" (in the resting/store area) has nothing to do with the formation and order in the arena. In the arena, the character you have as party leader will load in the position you created him, not where he's in the portrait order.

There are some battles (I assume you want no spoilers, so I won't name any) where the enemies load close to your party, so creating the characters in order of armor is important. I found out the annoying way with a 14 con bard.

Other option, if you really want your mage created first - make sure to beam into the arena invisible. The first few battles won't be a problem, so you can get the spell early enough. It's just a spell slot you have to sacrifice. (I did for my jester; for a pure mage, it's not such a big deal in comparison.)
It also helps to have faster characters in #2 and #3, i.e. a monk and a barbarian who'll rush to intercept the enemies targeting #1.

Heindrich

@KidCarnival

Damn that's really annoying. The main reason I wanted Lilly as party leader (aside from paying respect to Tord, who inspired my LP), was so that she can summon a familiar, which featured a fair in Tord's LP, and was an Imp called Duke. XD

CrevsDaak

I should try to minimize the dual/multi-class characters, it caused me lots of trouble in BP1/BP2 (I don't like it much so I gave up after the first try :P, but BP1 got complicated with multi-classes).

KidCarnival

Aye, I hadn't considered the familiar issue. In that case, Invisibility is really your only option. There is a scroll merchant who has the spell, and the first fights are... comically easy, but still give you a lot XP to level really fast, and the scroll won't cost much. You won't have much gold - it's a big contrast to BG - but the scroll will go a long way in that case.

In BP 2, you'll have less of a problem with a caster in #1 due to the larger arena. There are also different arena layouts and enemies can't always do a frontal assault. You won't be able to prebuff, but you are also much less at risk to be targeted first in #1.

KidCarnival

Oh, I just see you have 2 arcane casters. Don't give the sorcerer Invisibility; just scribe with the mage, that's enough. Sleep alone will get you safely through the fights you need to get the XP/level to cast Invisibility.

Heindrich

@CrevsDaak
What do you mean DCs and MCs caused u problems? How would it be different to normal games?

@KidCarnival

Actually I will have at least 3 Arcane casters in BP 2 cos the Kensai will dual-class at the beginning of BP 2. I say 'at least' cos I am still theory-crafting the 6th character, who might end up being a mage of some sort as well lol.

Overall, with those fairly mediocre stats, is it reasonable to expect that party to handle everything BP 1 and BP 2 throws at them at Core Rules difficulty?

Oh and another question... how is the xp availability? Will u progress further with BP 2 or not compared to SoA and ToB? How much xp do u have by the end?

CrevsDaak

@Heindrich1988 as far as I played, F/M was nothing better than my bard (who had the highest kill rates, helped a lot with spell casting (who got a very low roll, and had no proficiencies bonus, so).
But you can get great benefits from the Ranger/Cleric Multi-Class, I forgot to say this before, as clerics don't take so long to get all the spell levels and can buff nicely to deal more damage/hit much more than Fighter/Mages. Cleric/Thief might go well for BP2, thieves will be useless in BP1.
I think that with two arcane casters it will be enough, I had to spent a lot of money in scrolls and I did not like that (I had a F/M, a Wild Mage (use Conjurer and use the clerical True Seeing, forgot about wild magic here, and when you kill a cow pry it does not fall over you) and a Bard).

KidCarnival

Oh, that shouldn't be a problem. I've read from people who finished BP with 6 pure mages or solo sorcerer (BP1 that is - soloing BP2 seems to be futile).

You gain quest XP after each fight. Doesn't matter how many party members you have, you always get the same per character. I don't know the total XP in BP2, but I assume it's the same as in BP1 - not restricted by XP, but level. In BP1, you can reach level 10 with any class, so slightly more than in BG for most.

Dual/multiclassing isn't so bad due to the fast leveling. In doubt, you can always repeat previous battles (for less gold & XP) if you are 200 XP short of regaining a class. About thieves, the only truly useful thief is assassin-mage; the poison makes for a nice caster disabler/counter mage, but other than that, thief skills aren't needed. The F/T isn't ideal, unless you EEkeep to assassin, otherwise you are wasting half the character on useless skills. I'd turn that into assassin-mage or assassin-fighter, if you really want to keep the thief part.

CrevsDaak

@KidCarnival well, I played with 6 sorcerers and I was so full of money I started buying stuff just "it could be bought", I am planning to make a BP2 with all sorcerers as well.
The thing is that multi-classes can't reach the levels that other classes can, anyway I always play without the XP cap, so it don't causes me trouble.

KidCarnival

@CrevsDaak - That's a good point; many casters do save gold - especially if they are sorcerers and need no scrolls. Most stock is limited in BP1 (except normal ammo) and the things sorcerers (and mages) can use is much cheaper than equipping a party of heavy armored characters. The light weapons are cheap, and you have to make due for a long time with minor mage robes, one Ring of Princes and Cloak of Protection... That's also to consider when deciding on weapon profs; if everyone in your party uses the same 3 weapons, some will end up with inferior versions in the end. There's also just one of each Arch Mage robe. (And unmodded, no Elven Chain, which really sucks for bards - just saying since one character is listed as "blade/druid/something" - Pecca has a mod that adds Elven Chain and some more things for mages to BP, if you go with Blade, I'd recommend installing it.) It's less a problem in BP2; there is a much bigger weapon selection, and I don't think you'd cripple your party by dualing if you go through both Pits.

meagloth

I'm surprised no one mentioned the stats. I found them a bit underwhelming. @Heindrich1988 I know you like to RP and not min/max, but I tried to do a bp1 game with some very poor roles and found it somewhat difficult. (I play insane, and don't like to replay battles.) And remember, you have to have 18 int to cast level 9 spells now, right?
@crevsdaak is right, havering lots of mages will save cash. You could easily do an all sorcerer bp1 run and never spend a single gold.
Also, if you made lowen a berserker instead of a fighter, than the rage ability gets past mind flayers and lots of other nasty things. If you don't like that, then make him that paladin kit with the innate dispel at twice their level. I don't know that I would have survived without that on my bp2 run. Ideally you would have both.

In bp2 a thief is useful, but not really in 1, with low levels and small arenas. All the guards have two potions of extra healing on them, which you can pickpocket easily if you don't mind some quicksave cheese. I got a buttload of potions that way, and it lasted for the first to tiers.

Heindrich

@meagloth

Ah yes... I forgot about the intelligence issue. Though doesn't that just affect scribing lv9 scrolls? So if I used Potion of Genius, my mages can scribe and use any spells? Does sub-18 Int affect mage HLAs?

I would prefer to keep Heindrich Lowen as a straight up fighter, but I wouldn't rule out making him a Paladin of some sort if it would give me a fighting chance. I am kinda concerned about how a pure fighter might become ineffective at the BP 2 levels.

It's also why I'm resistant to the idea of making the 6th character a monk. I'm worried that I can't carry 2 weak characters in BP 1 (Monk and Kensai), though I've heard that monks become absolute powerhouses in BG 2.

Oh yeah... the reason why those stats are so mediocre, aside from RP'ing character strengths and weaknesses, is that I like the idea of 6 relatively ordinary individuals working as a team to overcome much greater adversaries. That was part of the whole narrative that I established in my BG 2 LP... that although Jin himself is weaker than many of the powerful enemies he comes across, like Irenicus and Abazigal, he is successful because he has loyal friends who stand by his side, and grow together as a team.

meagloth

@heidrich1988, monks are supposed to be uber powerful at high levels, but I took a sun soul monk along, on my first(failed) bp2 run, and I guess I played him wrong because he was the first to get chunked in every battle. He was completely useless. I should have used the straight monk, but still. He had half the hit points as the fighter, and couldn't hit anything. I don't know what I did wrong, but it was sad.

KidCarnival

I assumed you plan to balance certain things with potions (if you go with Blade over Druid, you can still pickpocket by the time you reach BP2 - worth considering). A vanilla fighter... will be pretty medicore though, not just in BP2. I like paladins to tank, berzerkers to do the damage, but that's a matter of preference in the end.

I wouldn't really recommend taking a monk and a kensai, even if you plan to dual the kensai. It would be tedious through BP1, though certainly not impossible. I played BP1 with "best out of 10" rolls, so no real min/maxing possible (I didn't intentionally add weaknesses, but some stats were far from optimal) - I wouldn't worry about the stats if you have a solid class selection. The sorcerer saves you some money to buy potions if you really need to boost stats for a fight or scribing and in BP2, you have the option to ask the audience for better gear. You'll get random stuff after the fight, sometimes good, sometimes nothing you need, but still good to sell to have the gold for something else. In doubt, save a potion of genius and scribe high level spells after completing a tier.

meagloth

Hehe. I sat in front of the computer for three hours rolling a bp party with 87+ all around.

CrevsDaak

@KidCarnival I played with a Blade (killer, but she had to use Ghost Armor a lot), a F/M (useless), a Berserker, a Wild Mage (choose Conjurer or Sorcerer, and fuck the cows), a Priest of Helm (Ranger/Cleric is much better for BP2, choose what you want for BP1) and an Archer (another killer).
I think I'll start with a Dragon Disciple just to exploit a very beneficial bug that gives more AC, HP and CON at character creation.

meagloth

Oh, one more thing, I found the paladin HLA Summmon deva-looking-thing really usefully because instead of using my cleric pr maglev they could be casting rails servant and time-stop, respectively.

Heindrich

@meagloth

Yeah I was pretty amazed Keldorn suddenly got that in the final battle vs Melissan. And because it's an innate ability, he didn't even need to rest to use it!

I think I will probably make Heindrich an Inquisitor so that he remains useful throughout BP and BP 2. If I was just going to run BP 1, I'd be okay with a pure vanilla fighter... but I fear he'll be increasingly useless in BP 2. And with a party like that, I really cannot afford to carry a useless character, especially in the melee role.

FinneousPJ

@Heindrich1988 If you don't see him as an inquisitor, another choice would be the cavalier. It's a great kit that could well be a fighter kit IMO.

EDIT: Might be a bit far off but I think the best normal warrior classes (in BP2 at least) are barbarian or dwarven defender if you don't mind being a smelly little dwarf

meagloth

I used a dwarvin defender and it was quite nice. He had hella hit points with dwarvin 19 con and could tank around all day. He was dual wielding axes. The damage resistance fighter HLA doesn't stack with defensive stance though

Heindrich

@FinneousPJ

Actually Cavalier is a good suggestion! I thought of Inquisitor just because I was more familiar with the kit thanks to Keldorn, and I thought his True Sight and Dispel would be useful. But yeah... it doesn't fit Heindrich Lowen's character very well, whereas Cavalier appears to just be a badass fighter with awesome immunities and bonuses.

I will plough most of Takeo's thief points into Detect Illusions, so hopefully that means I don't need mage True Seeing, and with a pure mage, a sorcerer and (in BG 2) a Kensai=>Mage, I should have all the arcane penetration that I need anyway.

The biggest weakness in the party now is a lack of clerics and their buffs, but hopefully it won't be too crippling with all that Kensai/Cavalier hitting power and arcane firepower.

FinneousPJ

@Heindrich1988 The cavalier gets divine spell casting up to 4th level I recommend stacking AoF with DoE in BP2.