It is worth noting, @Archaos that the Sorcerer class was not introduced until very late into the production of BG2 (and the same with the Barbarian and Monk). So late, in fact, that character writing and building was probably already done. Factor in as well that it wasn't until late in the final stages of game development that the developers decided to keep Imoen in the game as a joinable NPC, and it is more understandable to see why they could not prevent Nalia's minimalisation as a character: by the time they had written Nalia, there was no thief(dual)/mage, and there was no mention of Sorcerers either.
That may be so, but they underutilized her dual-classing in the extreme. Would you want to run around buffing her with potions all the time just so she can be a reasonable thief? If you had another thief in your party, would you ever need Nalia's thief abilities? Nope, on both counts. That was true even without considering Imoen.
I guess the only reason she's a dual is flavor, and I suppose that's OK, I just wish she wasn't *three* slots per level behind Edwin
I tried to play with Nalia, but what the point of a thief duals at 4, and her voice set grates on my nerves. I think she would most definitely be an interesting character personality and development-wise, but I would have to find out with the should off. I just really had a hard time with that. :P
Anomen is a wonky dual class, too, with his proficiencies in weapons clerics can't use. That's purely done for flavor and to match his backstory (he mentions a crusade against giants --> spear prof makes sense), but he still profits from the fighter class in general. Nalia doesn't really profit from her thief levels; the skills are simply too low. Why would she stop practising as a thief when she notices on every corner that she's not good enough yet? She didn't have to go along with a training to reach a goal like Anomen, she had the freedom to do it all on her own terms. Mechanically, she doesn't make much sense and the skills don't really fit the backstory either. (She's not good with stealth despite sneaking away for years, for instance.)
@recklessheart I understand that but how hard would it be to change her class in the last minute? I mean, someone with Shadow/EEKeeper can change her class and abilities in what, 5-10 minutes? @KidCarnival True, that's another thing that bugged me. She's a 4-5 level Thief, I believe? Did she stop sneaking out at some point in her life and focused on her Mage training? Was she like: "Meh, I grew tired of sneaking out so I better return to my studies"?
If I make another Good playthrough and take Nalia, I'm changing her into a Sorcerer with Knock and Invisibility.
You could argue, however, that her thief skills are adequate only for getting her out of the castle, and are not trained nor ever were intended for high pressure or particularly daring-do situations. Her thieving skills are good enough for what she needed to accomplish that which she wished to accomplish.
@KidCarnival: That's what I meant. It's a poorly utilized dual class. I do think it makes some sense, as @recklessheart also points out. She learned how to sneak out of the castle and that's about as much rogue as she wants to be.
Anomen may have weird proficiencies, but his dual-classing is actually immensely useful.
Has anyone tried to use Nalia as a stealthy thief? It's no fun. She can stealth with magical invisibility or potions, as can anyone else. Her actual skills before she decided to pick up magic do not reflect "good enough to sneak out" - and not required, because her way out is a big door in the basement. She never had to use actual stealth, beyond sneaking into the basement. And that isn't such an artform in a huge castle.
As (vanilla*) sorcerer, her stats wouldn't have mattered at all and her writing would still make sense. And assigning spells to her takes a few minutes, so I don't see how a last minute change was completely impossible either.
* Vanilla wouldn't require any rewriting about dragon ancestors, but DD wasn't on the table anyway.
I find her interesting. She is now in my team of morally deficient vagabonds, and I like how every npc picks on her, even paladins and chaotic good warriors, trying to mock and break her world view. I like how she stays true to her convictions so far. She is not a shallow character.
Wow. You know, that is an excellent idea. Whatever was I thinking? I can be so bloody shortsighted at times. You've convinced me to give her another shot. Much obliged
Wow. You know, that is an excellent idea. Whatever was I thinking? I can be so bloody shortsighted at times. You've convinced me to give her another shot. Much obliged
So she's getting a Drew Barrymore portrait so you'll no longer be bothered by similarity?
I wouldn't say I LIKE HER, but I like her as a character. She has a thing and she does it. She has emotions and such. So that's nice. Do I like the way she acts? Not so much. But she seems "real" enough for a game with dragons and dungeons and what not.
It's just that Jan and Imoen are better than Nalia in the end.
It depends how much that means to each individual, though, I guess. The thread is more interested in discussions of her character writing than those of her build: while on paper she does not function as well as (at least) Imoen, variety is the spice of life and it isn't as though the game is impossible if you take Nalia instead of Imoen every now and again.
1. A different class (so she wasn't compared to the other thief/mages. I honestly think a lot of the anger at Nalia is frustration that with so many class combos out there, we got such little variety in general and such redundancy with one class in particular. My recommendation: Undualed thief, with potential to dual class to Mage. Now she's a SUPERIOR Imoen instead of an inferior Imoen. People could choose her to have a straight thief that doesn't permanently die, or they could dual her at whatever level they want, turning her into a powergamer's champ.
2. A different hair color. Safana and Imoen were similar in appearance and class, but they were clearly different characters, so the fact that they're both redhead thieves with dual-class mage potential (Safana needs a tome to get to 17) doesn't really matter. But Nalia IS an Imoen replacement - female human thief>mage who grew up behind walls, wants to get out, have an adventure, and help people - plain and simple, and that's just not a good thing. People who like Imoen will still want Imoen. People who don't like Imoen will probably also not want Imoen 2.0. So if you're going to have one, you have to try to create differences SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW, and hair color is as good a place to start as any. Give her black hair and a French accent - Voila!
3. Less whining. Bitch, I know you'd prefer to be out helping the poor, but I didn't exactly choose to be here in the Underdark, and if you were paying attention, you'd know that! Also, last time I checked, our reputation is 20! So could you MAYBE cut me the teeniest bit of slack? Seriously... Character killer. Silence the random whining (which, as noted, is never worse than in HER OWN KEEP doing HER OWN QUEST that SHE ASKED US TO DO!).
4. A romance. Look, none of the romances in BG2 are super amazing, but they're better than nothing, and the character development arcs do seem to be more impressive with a romance option. The romance dialogues, just by their sheer number, give the protagonist an active role in the NPC getting from Point A to Point B (to Point C). Nalia as a character has real potential for a very good arc. She clearly has a Robin Hood thing going, and you've got the power to be a tremendous Robin Hood. Alternately, for people who have played KotOR2, Nalia could have really used a Kreia-esque mentoring - taking her preconceived notions of charity and goodness and either corrupting them, or developing them into a broader perspective. The TOB dialogue touches on this a little bit when she (suddenly, out of nowhere, massive character twist) looks back on who she was with disdain, but getting to experience the journey from Point A to Point B would have been interesting.
5. A lot more NPCs. Nalia is somewhat underwhelming, but the thing that really sucks about how underwhelming she is, is that there aren't a lot of underwhelming NPCs in the game. In BG1, one of the advantages of having so many NPCs is that plenty of them could be described as "underwhelming", and people don't really care, because they can choose to take somebody else. It doesn't really bother most people if they never run around with Skie, or Alora, or Safana, or Garrick, or whoever. But if there's only 1 or 2 NPCs that aren't appealing, they stick out. You feel like, "I've played everybody else, I suppose I really should see what Nalia has to offer." And then when what Nalia has to offer turns out to be, "Not much", you feel extra irritated.
She can use a bow from her dual-class, which is probably one of the most useful things about it, IMO.
It's just that Jan and Imoen are better than Nalia in the end.
As thieves, yes.
As mages, I'm not so sure. Nalia as a single class can level up faster than Jan, and Imoen's ability to gain levels suffers from the fact that she spends half the game rotting in Spellhold.
Nalia's pretty average. Nothing great, nothing terrible. She can use Zerth blade for a couple extra spells and just act like a normal mage would, or she can use a shortbow and some arrows and just chill at a distance while firing off arrows. Only real problem with Nalia is is that she's a worse Imoen. Like seriously, she's basically Imoen but with less thieving skills.
Imoen makes her almost obsolete in comparison. You could always run both in your party if you so desire, or you can just keep Nalia despite the lack of thieving skills. You could also ditch both in favor of the vastly superior Jan Jansen, but it's up to you. She's decent, but out-ranked by many.
EDIT: also why people would consider Jan Jansen a better *mage* than Nalia is because he's a gnome, he's a thief/*illusionist*. That means he's a specialist mage (gnomes are the only race that can be specialist mages in a multi-class), and gets bonus spells per day, which means he'll eventually have more spells than Nalia, though Nalia might get higher level spells first due to XP needs.
She looks like Drew Barrymore and I can't get past it. I'm more than likely projecting some of my dislike for the actor onto Nalia.
Nalia's portrait was indeed clearly influenced by Barrymore, but there's another actress whose looks have been blended in. Look at a portrait of Nalia next to a photo of Susan Sarandon, and suddenly the Drewness melts away. It's like one of those mind tricks where you stare at an image and it starts moving--once you see it, you can't un-see it.
@KidCarnival's suggestion to make Nalia a dragon disciple or bard, is exactly right. Shrugging off her mediocre thief skills, she's just a mage. As a wealthy royal hobnobbing all over Faerûn it feels like she could've believably been something more exotic.
Having said that, she's been in my party before and done a fine job. Echoing a lot of comments here, I like that she wants to help people. In some ways, her hopeful naivete is what adventure games are all about.
But that's where she cracks a bit -- why no romance? A hero and a princess are like peas in a pod.
I think what EE did with her outfit was gorgeous. I had already resolved to take her on my last playthough (a non-canon good run: Keldorn Anomen Mazzy Nalia Valygar) and seeing her in those custom colours was just the icing on the cake.
Nalia has always been one of my favorite characters, and I find it hard not to take her.
Despite what many seem to think, she is flat-out a better mage than Imoen and Jan. Her stats are equal to Immy, with Imoen having slightly better wisdom and Nalia having drastically higher strength. Plus Nalia gets the added mage levels earlier than Imoen, and much earlier than Jan.
Imoen and Jan are much better thieves but it has already been established in the past, that if you are willing to micromanage rings and potions, Nalia is still competent enough to be the only thief you need in the game.
With all that being said, I do agree that she would have done better and probably gotten more love as a different class. I maintain that her storyline lends itself to good Fighter->Mage dual or a Sorcerer.
Personality-wise I have no problem with her. She is supposed to be annoying, privileged and naive. It speaks to how good her characterization is that people get annoyed by the way she acts and speaks, because you are supposed to be annoyed by the way she acts and speaks. You still see her grow throughought the game(much more if you use the Nalia romance mod, which I highly recommend as a romance is the only thing missing from her character.)
In summary, people always see fit to replace Nalia with Imoen due to their similarities, but fail to focus on their differences. Nalia is a better mage than Imoen, and Imoen is a better thief than Nalia. Different characters.
As a character, I like her very much . She has her own personality, an incredible quest, a unique personal ring, and she pushes you into adventuring from the start. Honestly, she is just an amazing character.
However , I find her a bit hard to believe as either thief or mage.
I mean, she was a thief who has dexterity 18 . How did she get so competent? Besides, she doesn't act like a thief , and the game always seems to suggest that she became a thief in order to learn how to sneak out of the keep. Maybe she had bow practice with her father, but she won't say anything about that either.
She is also a dualed level 9 mage . How did she get so powerful? She says that she had never done any adventures before she met you, but strangely enough she has access to powerful spells , has the dexterity of a master thief and skill in martial weapons.
This is something that I'll never agree with, her background and her class skills are to inconsistent. If she were a 3rd edition character, I would design her as 1st level mage with open lock/disarm trap skills (due to her high intelligence) and her two feats would be weapon proficiency in bow and short sword.
Even if you count that other npc's are leveled according to charname's experience, I will state that they were already adventurers , and their background is consistent with their levels.
Comments
I guess the only reason she's a dual is flavor, and I suppose that's OK, I just wish she wasn't *three* slots per level behind Edwin
I understand that but how hard would it be to change her class in the last minute? I mean, someone with Shadow/EEKeeper can change her class and abilities in what, 5-10 minutes?
@KidCarnival
True, that's another thing that bugged me. She's a 4-5 level Thief, I believe? Did she stop sneaking out at some point in her life and focused on her Mage training?
Was she like: "Meh, I grew tired of sneaking out so I better return to my studies"?
If I make another Good playthrough and take Nalia, I'm changing her into a Sorcerer with Knock and Invisibility.
Anomen may have weird proficiencies, but his dual-classing is actually immensely useful.
As (vanilla*) sorcerer, her stats wouldn't have mattered at all and her writing would still make sense. And assigning spells to her takes a few minutes, so I don't see how a last minute change was completely impossible either.
* Vanilla wouldn't require any rewriting about dragon ancestors, but DD wasn't on the table anyway.
1. A different class (so she wasn't compared to the other thief/mages. I honestly think a lot of the anger at Nalia is frustration that with so many class combos out there, we got such little variety in general and such redundancy with one class in particular. My recommendation: Undualed thief, with potential to dual class to Mage. Now she's a SUPERIOR Imoen instead of an inferior Imoen. People could choose her to have a straight thief that doesn't permanently die, or they could dual her at whatever level they want, turning her into a powergamer's champ.
2. A different hair color. Safana and Imoen were similar in appearance and class, but they were clearly different characters, so the fact that they're both redhead thieves with dual-class mage potential (Safana needs a tome to get to 17) doesn't really matter. But Nalia IS an Imoen replacement - female human thief>mage who grew up behind walls, wants to get out, have an adventure, and help people - plain and simple, and that's just not a good thing. People who like Imoen will still want Imoen. People who don't like Imoen will probably also not want Imoen 2.0. So if you're going to have one, you have to try to create differences SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW, and hair color is as good a place to start as any. Give her black hair and a French accent - Voila!
3. Less whining. Bitch, I know you'd prefer to be out helping the poor, but I didn't exactly choose to be here in the Underdark, and if you were paying attention, you'd know that! Also, last time I checked, our reputation is 20! So could you MAYBE cut me the teeniest bit of slack? Seriously... Character killer. Silence the random whining (which, as noted, is never worse than in HER OWN KEEP doing HER OWN QUEST that SHE ASKED US TO DO!).
4. A romance. Look, none of the romances in BG2 are super amazing, but they're better than nothing, and the character development arcs do seem to be more impressive with a romance option. The romance dialogues, just by their sheer number, give the protagonist an active role in the NPC getting from Point A to Point B (to Point C). Nalia as a character has real potential for a very good arc. She clearly has a Robin Hood thing going, and you've got the power to be a tremendous Robin Hood. Alternately, for people who have played KotOR2, Nalia could have really used a Kreia-esque mentoring - taking her preconceived notions of charity and goodness and either corrupting them, or developing them into a broader perspective. The TOB dialogue touches on this a little bit when she (suddenly, out of nowhere, massive character twist) looks back on who she was with disdain, but getting to experience the journey from Point A to Point B would have been interesting.
5. A lot more NPCs. Nalia is somewhat underwhelming, but the thing that really sucks about how underwhelming she is, is that there aren't a lot of underwhelming NPCs in the game. In BG1, one of the advantages of having so many NPCs is that plenty of them could be described as "underwhelming", and people don't really care, because they can choose to take somebody else. It doesn't really bother most people if they never run around with Skie, or Alora, or Safana, or Garrick, or whoever. But if there's only 1 or 2 NPCs that aren't appealing, they stick out. You feel like, "I've played everybody else, I suppose I really should see what Nalia has to offer." And then when what Nalia has to offer turns out to be, "Not much", you feel extra irritated.
As mages, I'm not so sure. Nalia as a single class can level up faster than Jan, and Imoen's ability to gain levels suffers from the fact that she spends half the game rotting in Spellhold.
Imoen makes her almost obsolete in comparison. You could always run both in your party if you so desire, or you can just keep Nalia despite the lack of thieving skills. You could also ditch both in favor of the vastly superior Jan Jansen, but it's up to you. She's decent, but out-ranked by many.
EDIT: also why people would consider Jan Jansen a better *mage* than Nalia is because he's a gnome, he's a thief/*illusionist*. That means he's a specialist mage (gnomes are the only race that can be specialist mages in a multi-class), and gets bonus spells per day, which means he'll eventually have more spells than Nalia, though Nalia might get higher level spells first due to XP needs.
Having said that, she's been in my party before and done a fine job. Echoing a lot of comments here, I like that she wants to help people. In some ways, her hopeful naivete is what adventure games are all about.
But that's where she cracks a bit -- why no romance? A hero and a princess are like peas in a pod.
I like when she calls Roenall a bastard. I wish the game had let my party kill him as party of her quest.
Despite what many seem to think, she is flat-out a better mage than Imoen and Jan. Her stats are equal to Immy, with Imoen having slightly better wisdom and Nalia having drastically higher strength. Plus Nalia gets the added mage levels earlier than Imoen, and much earlier than Jan.
Imoen and Jan are much better thieves but it has already been established in the past, that if you are willing to micromanage rings and potions, Nalia is still competent enough to be the only thief you need in the game.
With all that being said, I do agree that she would have done better and probably gotten more love as a different class. I maintain that her storyline lends itself to good Fighter->Mage dual or a Sorcerer.
Personality-wise I have no problem with her. She is supposed to be annoying, privileged and naive. It speaks to how good her characterization is that people get annoyed by the way she acts and speaks, because you are supposed to be annoyed by the way she acts and speaks. You still see her grow throughought the game(much more if you use the Nalia romance mod, which I highly recommend as a romance is the only thing missing from her character.)
In summary, people always see fit to replace Nalia with Imoen due to their similarities, but fail to focus on their differences. Nalia is a better mage than Imoen, and Imoen is a better thief than Nalia. Different characters.
However , I find her a bit hard to believe as either thief or mage.
I mean, she was a thief who has dexterity 18 . How did she get so competent?
Besides, she doesn't act like a thief , and the game always seems to suggest that she became a thief in order to learn how to sneak out of the keep. Maybe she had bow practice with her father, but she won't say anything about that either.
She is also a dualed level 9 mage . How did she get so powerful? She says that she had never done any adventures before she met you, but strangely enough she has access to powerful spells , has the dexterity of a master thief and skill in martial weapons.
This is something that I'll never agree with, her background and her class skills are to inconsistent. If she were a 3rd edition character, I would design her as 1st level mage with open lock/disarm trap skills (due to her high intelligence) and her two feats would be weapon proficiency in bow and short sword.
Even if you count that other npc's are leveled according to charname's experience, I will state that they were already adventurers , and their background is consistent with their levels.