I do think a lot of the criticism for Nalia comes from people falsely equating the class system in a place like Athkatla with more modern economic/social systems. I think a lot of what makes her annoying to some players is how she constantly views the serfdom as "victims", but in a system like Amn's they don't really have the same freedoms that most people in developed countries do in modern times. That said she definitely overdoes it, but I think it is understandable.
Agreed - although she is a bit overly ideological, her intentions are fundamentally commendable. The fact that her personality is somewhat flawed makes her seem more realistic and identifiable IMO.
The first is "How are we helping the less fortunate trudging around down here" particularly when it is said in her own keep!.
The fact that she complains about being in her own keep is one thing that has always irritated me. However, I tend to excuse this as being a scripting oversight by the devs rather than an intended character flaw.
The fact that she complains about being in her own keep is one thing that has always irritated me. However, I tend to excuse this as being a scripting oversight by the devs rather than an intended character flaw.
I don't remember using her in a playthrough ever. That's why I'll be using her in my upcoming playthrough when I gather the energy to play BG2 again in the weekend
I always thought the point was that she starts out naive but with good intentions and eventually gets wiser, but I need to see it for myself.
I don't mind Nalia, really. The only problem I have with her is that she's not the best companion for the bhaalspawn. I don't mean that in a bad way; she has her own plans and ambitions which are focused on Amn, and isn't that interested in traveling long distances, adventures and exploration, or the whole bhaalspawn business. Other NPC's might have their own schemes, but usually they can coincide with what you're doing. That's what she makes clear to me in ToB; she would rather be getting on with her own stuff then getting dragged into yours. She goes along because she feels obligated and there's the whole destiny thing, but all the while she's obviously thinking more about her own plans.
So therefore, I usually leave her after finishing her quests so she can get on with it.
I was amused by how deep and dark Nalia is as a character, despite being Lawful Good. Lawful Good characters usually are plain and simple. But her story and personality were the most well constructed of all NPCs in Baldur's Gate II.
She's a Thief, but is Lawful Good. She is a noble, but she takes good care about the farmers that lives around her family's stronghold. She worries about the poor and oppresed, yet I loved how she was a bit snobbish when I asked if she was proposing me.
She's not on my main party, but I do rotate a lot its members. And I loved every thing she said when we adventured together.
Nalia is Chaotic Good, although changes to Neutral Good if you summon her in ToB, apparently. Although I agree much of her behavior, the way she uses the system and is trying to get it changed from within, could be Lawful Good.
I like Nalia mostly because she comes off like a real person rather than a caricature, her personality can be grating, and she isn't optimal as a thief or a mage. But here's the thing, no one is perfect.
I should note for the record I like most of the characters in BG2 except for the female romances (Jaheira, Viconia, and Aerie) because the romances are so poorly done that they actually compromise the characters of those three women and make them toxic to have around me. I suppose if I played as a female I would be able to like them just fine as well.
I didn't vote as my opinion wasn't really represented XD. My thoughts however are that while Nalia is good and I like her personality and character arc, stats wise she is just not quite as good as the other two thief/mage options. Jan keeps gaining thief levels, making him the best thief option of the three (his unique gear also helps quite a bit). While, Imoen ( Having dualed at a later level) has the points to handle any lock and trap in the game from the get go (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't recall her not being able to disarm/pick anything in my playthroughs). Magic wise, Nalia is, I believe, on par with Imoen, it does seem that Nalia is a sub par Imoen to me, useful mostly as stop gap until you get Imoen back. Note that is from a pure stat and mechanics standpoint, once again, I do like her character and arc for rp reasons.
has the points to handle any lock and trap in the game from the get go (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't recall her not being able to disarm/pick anything in my playthroughs).
She has 100 open locks and 95 in find traps. That's enough thieving for the whole game.
Other than that, Nalia is pretty much on par with Imoen. She does have higher strength so she can carry a bit more. Always nice. The big "problem" with both is that they are not specialists, nor do they have any cheating rings or amulets that grant them extra spell slots. Edwin has 3 slots more per level. That's crazy.
I like Nalia mostly because she comes off like a real person rather than a caricature
@fitscotgaymer see, this is where I really disagree. I think she is very much a representative of the young, naive, highly involved (and overly self-involved) upper middle class left-wing college student that you will find in real life (as someone on here described her, a "fantasy limousine liberal"). The girl who is a Political Science/Sociology major who was big into Kony 2012. I dunno if "caricature" is the right word, but I think her type of character is very recognizable. Anomen and especially Keldorn are the two characters I would match with the description you gave. Keldorn defies the modern stereotype of the "super self-righteous paladin", since while he is a bit flawed with his family and with Viconia, he is nowhere near as extreme as many other paladins/lawful good types are often portrayed. He's the anti-caricature.
I really dislike Nalia. I think it's her voice, it grates on my ears. I only really like her if I'm a fighter and I want to do her side-quest. But her thieving skills are substandard, and I usually have Aerie and Jaheira if i'm good or Edwin and Viconia if i'm evil, so I'd rather use her slot for a tank like Keldorn or Korgan.
That's what I meant by "a bit over the top personality". Nalia is full of tropes; the kind noble who rejects her privilege (to some degree) and flaunts it, Robin Hoodesque helping the poor, rebelling against the stereotypical parents (or probably more "guardians", we don't meet her parents, just the aunt)...
But I don't hold that against her. This kind of character has a place in a typical fantasy setting, just like greedy, grumpy dwarf veteran (Kagain, Korgan), the arrogant, ambitious mage (Edwin), the charming rogue (Safana, Coran) or the ultra-righteous knight in shiny armor (Ajantis, to a degree, Anomen, who certainly has more depth than the former). Most NPCs fall into a stereotype category; some have more depth (notably Anomen, Keldorn, Rasaad, and from BG1, Kivan defies the charming, noble elf warrior trope pretty hard), but all that comes with the genre. In a scifi setting, you'd have other stereotypes instead - the proud warrior race guy, the miracle worker engineer, the daredevil genius pilot, someone who was touched by the Vorlons, the enemy mine guy and so on. Every genre has it's own stereotypes and cliche characters. And here, we shouldn't forget that this game and the characters were written 15 years ago. Fiction develops, and in some cases, it takes decades to break with stereotypes and shape them into something new. Today, we compare medieval fantasy to Game of Thrones with all it's shades of grey and no clear good/evil lines. 15 years ago, the halfling was a lovable rogue, the orc was an aggressive monster, the elf a noble archer, the dwarf a permanently drunk grumpy smith and the human a knight in shiny armor or a wizard with a long beard and a walking stick. Of course it looks a bit dated to compare characters from that time with more recent settings. You also can't really compare the original Star Trek with District 9 - both have social commentary, but each addressing their own time, with the methods of characterization and storytelling of their time.
Another character who defies tropes is Monty, who, while a thief, is not your typical halfling rogue. He doesn't have that loveable charm, friendly disposition or insatiable curiosity. Instead has a gruff demeanor and is very abrasive. Though he does fit the assassin/mercenary archetype, its fun to see a halfling who does not resemble Bilbo/Regis/Tasslehoff or any of the other numerous Hobbit/Halfling/Kender rogues you'll find in typical fantasy stories.
Another character who defies tropes is Monty, who, while a thief, is not your typical halfling rogue. He doesn't have that loveable charm, friendly disposition or insatiable curiosity. Instead has a gruff demeanor and is very abrasive. Though he does fit the assassin/mercenary archetype, its fun to see a halfling who does not resemble Bilbo/Regis/Tasslehoff or any of the other numerous Hobbit/Halfling/Kender rogues you'll find in typical fantasy stories.
This is why Montaron is one of my favourite characters, since he both fits and counters the halfling rogue mould. He isn't charming. He's a violent sociopath. He's probably the only evil NPC in BG1 who is actually a partial-deconstruction of a cliche rather than just being one. If he was a 2E kit he'd be a Thug, which is kinda great since Halflings can't legally be Thugs.
Am I the only one who likes generalist mages? The ability to cast any spell is well worth one less spell per level, IMHO.
Depends on the type of specialist. If we're talking about a conjurer, the only spell you'll really miss is True Sight, and that job can easily be done by any thief, cleric or other mage you have. Not even close to being worth the cost of 1 slot per level IMO.
Then again the specialists are super unbalanced and some of them are just horrible. Losing all of abjuration for example... ouch
In all my travels with Nalia De'Arnise, I remember most the peculiar urgency with which she felt the destitute apparently deserved recompense from our communal coinpurse. It never seemed certain whether she truly pitied the despised rivvil, or sought to appease some nagging statute of her surfacer's nobility, or perhaps was eager to shed the weight of wealth that stooped her shoulders and often turned her searching gaze inwards.
Suffice it to say, she had little overt regard for the precepts of Shar, despite the fact the Goddess lurked waiting behind every coin passed from her deft fingers. I had once entertained notions of formalizing the arrangement, and indeed made a veiled overture to that effect one moonless night while those about us were lost to fitful sleep - but it seemed Nalia was a young woman desperate to fill the voids left by the losses of her brief lifespan with charitable and naively-optimistic deeds. She tried to convince me at times that there was no cruel arrogance to be found swimming in the shadowed depths of her heart... and yet the line of separation between herself and others was never cut so cleanly as when she declared them needful of aid. I've sometimes wondered at what she herself might have discovered within, waiting and whispering her name, had she not found strong and reassuring company in her hour of need. Perhaps she sought to reassure herself, with her pronouncements of the difference between us. I've often suspected I frightened her, though she hid such feeling well.
Perhaps she goes on still, believing me cruel and thoughtless to those impoverished, never knowing how much interest I held in seeing if Shar would help me guide the wayward Nalia into a deeper acceptance of her own bereavement. The Golden Lord De'Arnise left behind him a daughter eager to pay lip-service to the ideals of behavior she set in his stead - and yet for all her foolish prattle, I cannot deny that I felt a strange kinship to her at odd moments, hearing her voice lift in another story of her early years; a hymn of praise to her gods of largesse and patronage. Perhaps I, in turn, found some fleeting solaces in those tempting notions of rulership, luxury and power.
I don't know how to vote. On one hand, I can appreciate her writing — I find her personality intriguing and somewhat unusual. On the other hand, "interesting personality" doesn't automatically mean "likable personality". From her first sentences in Copper Coronet my character wanted to put his boot into her lovely "privileged" posterior. Hence, despite interesting personality, I never found place for her in my party.
@fitscotgaymer see, this is where I really disagree. I think she is very much a representative of the young, naive, highly involved (and overly self-involved) upper middle class left-wing college student that you will find in real life (as someone on here described her, a "fantasy limousine liberal"). The girl who is a Political Science/Sociology major who was big into Kony 2012.
That's me. You neglect to mention, though, that I also mentioned she was "hilarious" and I "loved" her. She is my favourite fantasy limousine liberal.
I like Nalia, seriously. She actually isn't a caricature in fantasy terms, because she is presented as a mix of good or bad, if one separates oneself from how you personally view the character and instead just pay attention to how she's treated in story. Sometime her left-wing college student activism is presented as positive, sometimes as negative. Sometimes she's genuinely helpful, other time she's clueless. That's refreshing, as opposed to other more one-note characters (like Viconia). It's the same reason I liked BG1 Neera, who has a similar mix of likable and unlikable traits (jury's still out on BG2 Neera until they patch the romances and I take another crack at a good-aligned run).
I also really liked where they were going with Nalia in ToB; it's a pity that, like many interesting bits of character development in the game, it doesn't really go anywhere and feels unfinished.
I can't keep Nalia around. I totally tried, but she kept spitting out that "How are we helping the less fortunate.." line and making me want to fireball her.
She'll always come to the keep though. I love the voicing of the line "Dead! Die you beast!" so she's always going to be around to avenge her father.
Nalia should have been a Sorcerer in my opinion. Maybe she's not an Imoen clone personality-wise, but she absolutely is class-wise. A female, Good-aligned, human dual-classed Thief->Mage? Seriously? Even her hair is almost the same, color being an exception.
They should have given her Knock and Invisibility as spells to make the whole "sneaking out at night" backstory be more plausible, she would be different than Imoen and the good equivalent to the spell-machine that is Edwin, they would demonstrate what the new Sorcerer class can do and since she's noble-born she could claim that her family is descended by dragons.
But no, they chose to make her an Imoen clone with crappy Thief skills and when you get Imoen back you find out that you wasted the scrolls on her, instead. As a Sorcerer she wouldn't have to worry about scrolls and you could have both of them in the same party, Imoen being more utility and Nalia a blaster.
@Archaos: Totally agree they should have made her a sorcerer. I've been thinking it's silly that they don't have a single sorcerer NPC for your party. That said, if you already have a thief in your party and you're just looking for a good-aligned mage, I actually prefer Nalia mechanically. She has ever so slightly better stats with the same stats where it really counts but 14 strength rather than 9.
Most importantly though, you get to keep Nalia from the very beginning so no matter when you do all your quests, she won't be behind in XP. Imoen always will.
That is why she I choose her over Imoen for my new good playthrough.
Comments
The fact that she complains about being in her own keep is one thing that has always irritated me. However, I tend to excuse this as being a scripting oversight by the devs rather than an intended character flaw.
Also she gives me the keys to her house and lets me store stuff in her basement.
I always thought the point was that she starts out naive but with good intentions and eventually gets wiser, but I need to see it for myself.
So therefore, I usually leave her after finishing her quests so she can get on with it.
She's a Thief, but is Lawful Good. She is a noble, but she takes good care about the farmers that lives around her family's stronghold. She worries about the poor and oppresed, yet I loved how she was a bit snobbish when I asked if she was proposing me.
She's not on my main party, but I do rotate a lot its members. And I loved every thing she said when we adventured together.
I should note for the record I like most of the characters in BG2 except for the female romances (Jaheira, Viconia, and Aerie) because the romances are so poorly done that they actually compromise the characters of those three women and make them toxic to have around me.
I suppose if I played as a female I would be able to like them just fine as well.
Other than that, Nalia is pretty much on par with Imoen. She does have higher strength so she can carry a bit more. Always nice. The big "problem" with both is that they are not specialists, nor do they have any cheating rings or amulets that grant them extra spell slots. Edwin has 3 slots more per level. That's crazy.
I dunno if "caricature" is the right word, but I think her type of character is very recognizable. Anomen and especially Keldorn are the two characters I would match with the description you gave. Keldorn defies the modern stereotype of the "super self-righteous paladin", since while he is a bit flawed with his family and with Viconia, he is nowhere near as extreme as many other paladins/lawful good types are often portrayed. He's the anti-caricature.
But I don't hold that against her. This kind of character has a place in a typical fantasy setting, just like greedy, grumpy dwarf veteran (Kagain, Korgan), the arrogant, ambitious mage (Edwin), the charming rogue (Safana, Coran) or the ultra-righteous knight in shiny armor (Ajantis, to a degree, Anomen, who certainly has more depth than the former). Most NPCs fall into a stereotype category; some have more depth (notably Anomen, Keldorn, Rasaad, and from BG1, Kivan defies the charming, noble elf warrior trope pretty hard), but all that comes with the genre.
In a scifi setting, you'd have other stereotypes instead - the proud warrior race guy, the miracle worker engineer, the daredevil genius pilot, someone who was touched by the Vorlons, the enemy mine guy and so on. Every genre has it's own stereotypes and cliche characters.
And here, we shouldn't forget that this game and the characters were written 15 years ago. Fiction develops, and in some cases, it takes decades to break with stereotypes and shape them into something new. Today, we compare medieval fantasy to Game of Thrones with all it's shades of grey and no clear good/evil lines. 15 years ago, the halfling was a lovable rogue, the orc was an aggressive monster, the elf a noble archer, the dwarf a permanently drunk grumpy smith and the human a knight in shiny armor or a wizard with a long beard and a walking stick. Of course it looks a bit dated to compare characters from that time with more recent settings. You also can't really compare the original Star Trek with District 9 - both have social commentary, but each addressing their own time, with the methods of characterization and storytelling of their time.
Then again the specialists are super unbalanced and some of them are just horrible. Losing all of abjuration for example... ouch
Neither like or dislike, use her sometimes for pratical uses or know her content, other than that, never had much love or hate for her.
Suffice it to say, she had little overt regard for the precepts of Shar, despite the fact the Goddess lurked waiting behind every coin passed from her deft fingers. I had once entertained notions of formalizing the arrangement, and indeed made a veiled overture to that effect one moonless night while those about us were lost to fitful sleep - but it seemed Nalia was a young woman desperate to fill the voids left by the losses of her brief lifespan with charitable and naively-optimistic deeds. She tried to convince me at times that there was no cruel arrogance to be found swimming in the shadowed depths of her heart... and yet the line of separation between herself and others was never cut so cleanly as when she declared them needful of aid. I've sometimes wondered at what she herself might have discovered within, waiting and whispering her name, had she not found strong and reassuring company in her hour of need. Perhaps she sought to reassure herself, with her pronouncements of the difference between us. I've often suspected I frightened her, though she hid such feeling well.
Perhaps she goes on still, believing me cruel and thoughtless to those impoverished, never knowing how much interest I held in seeing if Shar would help me guide the wayward Nalia into a deeper acceptance of her own bereavement. The Golden Lord De'Arnise left behind him a daughter eager to pay lip-service to the ideals of behavior she set in his stead - and yet for all her foolish prattle, I cannot deny that I felt a strange kinship to her at odd moments, hearing her voice lift in another story of her early years; a hymn of praise to her gods of largesse and patronage. Perhaps I, in turn, found some fleeting solaces in those tempting notions of rulership, luxury and power.
I like Nalia, seriously. She actually isn't a caricature in fantasy terms, because she is presented as a mix of good or bad, if one separates oneself from how you personally view the character and instead just pay attention to how she's treated in story. Sometime her left-wing college student activism is presented as positive, sometimes as negative. Sometimes she's genuinely helpful, other time she's clueless. That's refreshing, as opposed to other more one-note characters (like Viconia). It's the same reason I liked BG1 Neera, who has a similar mix of likable and unlikable traits (jury's still out on BG2 Neera until they patch the romances and I take another crack at a good-aligned run).
I also really liked where they were going with Nalia in ToB; it's a pity that, like many interesting bits of character development in the game, it doesn't really go anywhere and feels unfinished.
She'll always come to the keep though. I love the voicing of the line "Dead! Die you beast!" so she's always going to be around to avenge her father.
A female, Good-aligned, human dual-classed Thief->Mage? Seriously? Even her hair is almost the same, color being an exception.
They should have given her Knock and Invisibility as spells to make the whole "sneaking out at night" backstory be more plausible, she would be different than Imoen and the good equivalent to the spell-machine that is Edwin, they would demonstrate what the new Sorcerer class can do and since she's noble-born she could claim that her family is descended by dragons.
But no, they chose to make her an Imoen clone with crappy Thief skills and when you get Imoen back you find out that you wasted the scrolls on her, instead. As a Sorcerer she wouldn't have to worry about scrolls and you could have both of them in the same party, Imoen being more utility and Nalia a blaster.
Most importantly though, you get to keep Nalia from the very beginning so no matter when you do all your quests, she won't be behind in XP. Imoen always will.
That is why she I choose her over Imoen for my new good playthrough.