I prefer the storyline and development of the intrigue of Sarevok over the revenge storyline of Irenicus and the boredom of Amelyssan.
Amelyssan could have been a good antagonist, but it is pretty obvious what her deal is from the get-go.
The only real reason why Irenicus comes across as a cool villain is due to the excellent cut-scenes that BG2 has over BG1. However, without those the character development is lacking and condensed to something like 2 journals.
Sarevok and his intrigue spans the sword coast and lets you wade through every corner of Baldur's Gate. You do not get to see much of him directly, but indirectly you get to gather bits and pieces of the story, thereby developing his character and when you meet him at last, the vision you had of him is acted upon spot on.
I like that Irenicus & Bhodi have both fallen from grace. There's a real Paradise Lost dynamic to their arc. I also like that Charname seeks revenge on them whilst they seek revenge on the elves because the elves took vengeance against them... And any story that ends with a battle within the planes of Hell has to be cool!
I'm a big fan of endings. I love it when a story culminates into an epic showdown with everything on the line. As cool as Irenicus was, it felt less integral to the "Bhaalspawn Saga" than Sarevok or Melissan. This is the fight the series was building up to, so I like it the most. Plus its super hard.
I vote Sarevok because I like his schemes most in BG(:EE) 1.
Isair and Madea had the chance to kill the protagonists at that village - but they didn't. Irenicus had the chance to kill the protagonist at Spellhold but he didn't.
There was already a discussion about the latter subject in another thread and I'm aware that you can come up with tons of reasons why he didn't finish off the main char after stealing their soul, but I usually very much dislike it, when a villain is portrayed to be overly powerful only to be defeated in the very end because he neglected to kill off the hero when he had the chance to do so earlier on.
Couldn't Sarevok have just chased after us after killing Gorion and ended it all before it even really began? Or on our return to Candlekeep for that matter?
I'm a big fan of endings. I love it when a story culminates into an epic showdown with everything on the line. As cool as Irenicus was, it felt less integral to the "Bhaalspawn Saga" than Sarevok or Melissan. This is the fight the series was building up to, so I like it the most. Plus its super hard.
You have to play with Ascencion, really, it males the endong million times cooler and makes some people to get back.
And Irenicus was very aware that you were a Bhaalspawn, he imprisoned because of that, and he discovers that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn and he removes your and Imoen's soul, while Sarevok couldn't kill you despite of being a War Machine with a cheesy stats. Amelyssan made a very big mistake: using you as a tool, if she tried to kill you at the start of ToB she could have became the Lady of Murder with no problems, as the Five were going to destroy themselves in a war that she was planning, Irenicus made mistakes too, he was the one that got the closest to reach what he wanted to do, even when you kill him he drags you to the Nine Hells. I ever think that if it weren't for Irenicus, there are very few reasons to turn evil for ToB, I mean, he makes you WANT the power, just like what Evil does in Time Bandits, to make you go to him, to fulfill his lost power to gain more power!! And yeah, Irenicus is like a little off-topic when talking about Bhaalspawns, but I still thinking that it is the best enemy in the saga.
Couldn't Sarevok have just chased after us after killing Gorion and ended it all before it even really began? Or on our return to Candlekeep for that matter?
The bardic powers of narrative structure teach us a simple lesson in these sort of situations: Such an event would make for a rather terrible story.
I had to pick Irenicus because he was the first and only computer game villain that I ever really felt passionately about wanting to kill. After being sucker punched at every turn by the things he did to Charname and his/her companions, it was so incredible satisfying to defeat him once and for all in Hell.
I have to agree on this point. Irenicus manipulates Charname several times and in true (vaud)villain style. Add David Warner voicing the whole thing and what's not to like.
I will admit that "you never forget your first" so Saravok is a close second in my mind. But on hindsight, Irenicus (or Icarus) was always there in the background. Right from the beginning.
Now, if they'd had a villain voiced by James Earl Jones, that would have been hard to top. Hmmmm. Wonder where that came from?
I voted for Jon Irenicus mainly because he's superbly characterized, having some of the best lines in the game and being voiced by such a *good* actor! I to this day am still moved by his last dialogue with Ellesime, when she asked if he didn't remember anything of her love. To which he replies with what is without a doubt one of my favourite lines in videogames: "I... I do not remember your love [...] for years I clung to the memory of it and then to the *memory* of the memory. And then nothing, the Seldarine took that away from me too...". So yeah, Irenicus because he's just plain awesome!
But, there's a but. I think we all have to give Sarevok credit for something: hadn't he been such a great villain, Baldur's Gate would have remained a good game, well characterized, definitely above your regular game, but still... a good game. Sarevok is just one of the moltitude of reasons BG is not just a *good* game, but rather a game so good that defined the way we saw and judged video games after it was published. Game of the year 1998, yet still discussed, modded, played through over and over again by hundreds of thousands of people everywhere in the world 17 years after it first got published. And all this is at least in part because of Sarevok.
I'm a big fan of endings. I love it when a story culminates into an epic showdown with everything on the line. As cool as Irenicus was, it felt less integral to the "Bhaalspawn Saga" than Sarevok or Melissan. This is the fight the series was building up to, so I like it the most. Plus its super hard.
You have to play with Ascencion, really, it males the endong million times cooler and makes some people to get back.
And Irenicus was very aware that you were a Bhaalspawn, he imprisoned because of that, and he discovers that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn and he removes your and Imoen's soul, while Sarevok couldn't kill you despite of being a War Machine with a cheesy stats. Amelyssan made a very big mistake: using you as a tool, if she tried to kill you at the start of ToB she could have became the Lady of Murder with no problems, as the Five were going to destroy themselves in a war that she was planning, Irenicus made mistakes too, he was the one that got the closest to reach what he wanted to do, even when you kill him he drags you to the Nine Hells. I ever think that if it weren't for Irenicus, there are very few reasons to turn evil for ToB, I mean, he makes you WANT the power, just like what Evil does in Time Bandits, to make you go to him, to fulfill his lost power to gain more power!! And yeah, Irenicus is like a little off-topic when talking about Bhaalspawns, but I still thinking that it is the best enemy in the saga.
sup @crevsdaak ! I think Irenicus was awesome because of his dialogue and voice acting. He was the most memorable and by far the coolest. But when you really think about it he was kinda dumb (leaves you in Spellhold, gets captured by the worst police force ever). Plus he was super whiny (oh, boo hoo hoo, the elves don't wanna play with me anymore). He literally can't get over his ex-girlfriend for decades.
Yet he was awesome and had major presence. He was the "coolest" by far. However, his storyline was extremely tangential to the overall Bhaalspawn Saga. The first game and last game serve as perfect bookends, and really define the overall story. The second game, while by far the best and most entertaining (due to sidequests and characters), has a story that seems more like a distraction than an integral part of your characters history. Melissan is a good final villain, since she is so linked to your characters history. I mean, if you want to compare it to something like Star Wars:
Sarevok is Darth Vader: mysterious link to the main character that is discovered along the journey. Badass voice and presence. Redeemable.
Melissan is the Emperor: little seen mastermind. Tricks everyone. Final showdown.
Where does that leave Irenicus in the overall story-arc? Grand Moff Tarkin?
I kinda wish Melissan had made some appearances earlier in the game. If I was to ever make a modit would add some parts in, like maybe Melissan saved you with Gorion or maybe she was a mentor for Sarevok under a different alias (why he doesn't recognize her in ToB) when he first rose to power. It would be cool to see her as the mastermind pulling all the string in the background, playing all the Bhaalspawn against eachother from the day they were born. Her character is underdeveloped, especially compared to Irenicus, but as arguably the most significant villain, she has the most potential for greatness (and improvement).
Ascension is awesome, but even after that I wish there was more to ToB.
I loved (to hate) Irenicus so he was a close second to me. But I really liked Belifhet. The gradual realization about who the actual villain in the game is was a big moment for me. Great and very satisfying ending of Icewind dale.
But when you really think about it he was kinda dumb (leaves you in Spellhold, gets captured by the worst police force ever).
If you're referring to the Cowled Wizards you realise he handed himself in purposefully, right?
He hands himself over on purpose, but he did not confront them on purpose. It should never have gotten that far. Imoen escaping in the first place was silly enough. Nevermind the fact that he should have had you captured as soon as you worked for Bodhi if you were evil. Its clear that Bodhi can make it to Spellhold all on her own.
No, of course, but he wasn't captured by them. He could've kept going all day fighting them off, he just got bored with doing it and realised that the distraction would've resulted in you and Imoen escaping so he just manipulated the situation to get them to take him in with Imoen. Sadly, he just didn't forsee the Shadow Thieves launching such a successful assault so soon.
You're right that he could've captured you sooner if you worked with Bodhi, but he knew you would get to Spellhold either way.
@booinyoureyes I see Amelyssan as The Emperor, Irenicus as Darth Vader and Sarevok as Boba Fett, and the PC is Luke !! I don't know about appearance, if I do, Irenicus is a lot like Palpatine, Sarevok is totally like E3 Dark Side Anakin (and then he should get wiser...) and Amelyssan, eeeeeh, well, like Darth Zannah.... killing her master FTW and using a two handed weapon? Not good enough?
I think Irenicus was awesome because of his dialogue and voice acting. He was the most memorable and by far the coolest. But when you really think about it he was kinda dumb (leaves you in Spellhold, gets captured by the worst police force ever). Plus he was super whiny (oh, boo hoo hoo, the elves don't wanna play with me anymore). He literally can't get over his ex-girlfriend for decades.
I kind of think he wanted to be "Captured by the worst police force ever." After all, they were taking him to a nice place where he could set up a new shop, all safe and secure from the meddling Shadow-thieves and Charname.
As far as "leaving you in Spellhold", again "not unwatched". I don't guess you were supposed to survive. Bodhi was there with her cadre of vampires to make sure that you didn't. Sure, it was a bit arrogant (and therefore rookie villain move) not to handle your execution himself, but by that point, he wasn't afraid of an entire Elven Nation. Why worry about one single neutered (or so he assumed) adventurer/Bhaalspawn?
I'm not saying it's Shakespeare or anything, but it isn't exactly Wile E Coyotee either.
@booinyoureyes I totally agree with your opinion about Amelyssan; she is a really decent villain, and she has that link to you, the player, that is more invested than Irenicus. It's sad, because she just suffers from 'expansion pack villain syndrome' where they're just never going to be as fleshed out as the main game villain, unless they're a character that you interacted with in the main game. If, like you said, she'd been around in the background in SoA or the original she would've been such a great villain because you'd have even more vested interest in defeating her and her plans.
For me, Amelyssan is a close second, but Irenicus will always be my favourite villain in a video game because I just think he's well rounded. I almost didn't want to defeat him :P
For me, Amelyssan is a close second, but Irenicus will always be my favourite villain in a video game because I just think he's well rounded. I almost didn't want to defeat him :P
To be honest, I find Irenicus and Sarevok both more memorable than Melissan. I just think Melissan is the most important. I kinda view her as the main villain of the series (though you could argue Bhaal), which is how I viewed this poll. I *like* Sarevok the best probably, but more because of the importance he had in the Bhaalspawn's development, and because he becomes an awesome joinable NPC later on. Irenicus has the best lines and voice-acting.
I just think Melissan is the "main" villain of the series. Since Irenicus wasn't really tied to your "destiny" or part of Alaundo's Prophecy, he seems kind of like an afterthought when all is said and done. He's more significant than a Firkraag, but he's not exactly arch-nemesis material for your main character (though kidnapping Imoen helps in that regard).
Unfortunately Melissan seems to be a big series of "what ifs" as well. She could have been as memorable as the other two, but ToB was rushed. Unlike many, I actually like ToB a lot, but I agree with most players that it seemed to lack a lot of what made the other two so much fun, and a big part was Melissan not being as fleshed out.
His journals pretty much prove beyond any doubt that he did *not* intend to be captured.
As far as his actions in spellhold are concerned... he left you fully armed when he had you at his mercy. No excuses for that.
I can't speak to the journals as I don't have them memorized. Nor do I have insights into what the Devs actually intended. I'd think it went like this though. "My base is compromised by those stinking Shadowthieves. Being a resourceful individual, I can adapt my new surroundings (i.e. Spellhold) to my purpose with relative ease, so why not let them take me?" All of which would have happened long after his journal entries were written. But that is pure speculation on my part. Certainly he "Could" have gotten free if he had wanted too, so any speculation of him being "Forced" against his will seems kind of moot in my mind. so 'by choice' is the only logical conclusion.
And would you take the time to strip down ants of their armor and weapons? Or take the time to exterminate all of them? Or would you let your "Sister" who likes killing ants and wants a challenge, do it for you while you get on with the Important work of becoming a God?
by the time you catch up with him in Spellhold, he's crazy enough to think he is untouchable. Everyone is beneath him, you least of all because the only thing that made you even remotely special (your Bhaalspawn essence) has been stripped away from you. Even fully armed, you are gnats to him (in his brain) and of zero consequence. Yeah, this is a rookie move as far as arch villains are concerned, but not unheard of or unreasonable considering the character.
1. basically you are saying him screwing up was in character. Doesn't make his mistakes less stupid. 2. His journals were written after he had taken over spellhold. I was actually surprised by what he said in my last playthrough, since I spent the time to read all the little things 3. 'by choice' is not at all a logical conclusion. Why would he want to let the Bhaalspawn he needed escape, have to ensure that he a. finds out where Imoen is taken b. finds a way to get to a remote location that his notoriously difficult to reach c. doesn't get killed by someone like Firkraag along the way. In order to ensure success, he makes sure that Bodhi charges him 15,000 gp that he has to collect by doing incredibly dangerous jobs. On top of that he has to move his entire operation to a whole new location after being "so close to unlocking your power". That makes no sense whatsoever. If he didn't look and sound so damn cool while doing it, none of us would forgive such incompetence!
Don't they say you never forget your first? Hah, hah. My love for Sarevok probably comes mostly from the way he's developed in ToB, though: in BG1, he truthfully isn't that interesting, though the pinpricks you get about him from other characters (Tamoko, Winski) are tantalizing. But his characterization in ToB really makes him, and I'm pretty fond of his voicing, too.
But where's PS:T's last spoiler boss? "I can forge planes with my power. I can *unmake* you." I'll take moss badass boast for a hundred, please. Sure, the fight is pretty unmemorable, and like good old Mephy, it can be skipped (and is probably better skipped), but the sheer badassness can't be denied- that's a lot of power there, only bypassed because the Nameless One and his companions are so powerful themselves. And there's another with excellent voicing.
...Irenicus probably has the best voicing, though, yeah.
But where's PS:T's last spoiler boss? "I can forge planes with my power. I can *unmake* you." I'll take moss badass boast for a hundred, please.
I think he unmade himself because of being a total jerk (joking), I mean, he is by far the coolest enemy in all the IE games, but the real main antagonist in PS:T is the Nameless One himself, his mortality only tries things over him, he has an amazing phrase about learning Arcane arts from Lum, he is able to unmake you in the same way he can be unmade. But he does not know the thing that can change the nature of a man.
Has to be the 'Vok. He's so likeable as a bad guy I would pay good money to play a Baldur's Gate game from his perspective. He has so much personality, he could have been the main protagonist himself! Easily one of the most well thought out, well designed, intriguing antagonists in video game history.
Take away his evil spiky armour and you see a life full of tragedy, violence, ambition, love and sorrow.
Yes, yes - I know. I have a total bromance for the 'Vok.
I voted Irenicus, but they were all amazing! Sarevok was the perfect initial villain (his plans were brilliant) and Melissan was the perfect mastermind (again, brilliant plans), but they were both under-represented in thier stories. Irenicus tho - dude had mad charisma. The "It" factor as they say.
@the_spyder Exactly, he is a classic example of an unreliable narrator, in this case being an actual player in the story. He is flawed, he is wounded, he is misguided, and he doesn't see any of this until it is too late. It makes him great.
Comments
Amelyssan could have been a good antagonist, but it is pretty obvious what her deal is from the get-go.
The only real reason why Irenicus comes across as a cool villain is due to the excellent cut-scenes that BG2 has over BG1. However, without those the character development is lacking and condensed to something like 2 journals.
Sarevok and his intrigue spans the sword coast and lets you wade through every corner of Baldur's Gate. You do not get to see much of him directly, but indirectly you get to gather bits and pieces of the story, thereby developing his character and when you meet him at last, the vision you had of him is acted upon spot on.
I also like that Charname seeks revenge on them whilst they seek revenge on the elves because the elves took vengeance against them...
And any story that ends with a battle within the planes of Hell has to be cool!
John Kassir < David Warner
And Irenicus was very aware that you were a Bhaalspawn, he imprisoned because of that, and he discovers that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn and he removes your and Imoen's soul, while Sarevok couldn't kill you despite of being a War Machine with a cheesy stats.
Amelyssan made a very big mistake: using you as a tool, if she tried to kill you at the start of ToB she could have became the Lady of Murder with no problems, as the Five were going to destroy themselves in a war that she was planning, Irenicus made mistakes too, he was the one that got the closest to reach what he wanted to do, even when you kill him he drags you to the Nine Hells.
I ever think that if it weren't for Irenicus, there are very few reasons to turn evil for ToB, I mean, he makes you WANT the power, just like what Evil does in Time Bandits, to make you go to him, to fulfill his lost power to gain more power!!
And yeah, Irenicus is like a little off-topic when talking about Bhaalspawns, but I still thinking that it is the best enemy in the saga.
Such an event would make for a rather terrible story.
I will admit that "you never forget your first" so Saravok is a close second in my mind. But on hindsight, Irenicus (or Icarus) was always there in the background. Right from the beginning.
Now, if they'd had a villain voiced by James Earl Jones, that would have been hard to top. Hmmmm. Wonder where that came from?
But, there's a but. I think we all have to give Sarevok credit for something: hadn't he been such a great villain, Baldur's Gate would have remained a good game, well characterized, definitely above your regular game, but still... a good game. Sarevok is just one of the moltitude of reasons BG is not just a *good* game, but rather a game so good that defined the way we saw and judged video games after it was published. Game of the year 1998, yet still discussed, modded, played through over and over again by hundreds of thousands of people everywhere in the world 17 years after it first got published. And all this is at least in part because of Sarevok.
I think Irenicus was awesome because of his dialogue and voice acting. He was the most memorable and by far the coolest. But when you really think about it he was kinda dumb (leaves you in Spellhold, gets captured by the worst police force ever). Plus he was super whiny (oh, boo hoo hoo, the elves don't wanna play with me anymore). He literally can't get over his ex-girlfriend for decades.
Yet he was awesome and had major presence. He was the "coolest" by far. However, his storyline was extremely tangential to the overall Bhaalspawn Saga. The first game and last game serve as perfect bookends, and really define the overall story. The second game, while by far the best and most entertaining (due to sidequests and characters), has a story that seems more like a distraction than an integral part of your characters history. Melissan is a good final villain, since she is so linked to your characters history. I mean, if you want to compare it to something like Star Wars:
Sarevok is Darth Vader: mysterious link to the main character that is discovered along the journey. Badass voice and presence. Redeemable.
Melissan is the Emperor: little seen mastermind. Tricks everyone. Final showdown.
Where does that leave Irenicus in the overall story-arc? Grand Moff Tarkin?
I kinda wish Melissan had made some appearances earlier in the game. If I was to ever make a modit would add some parts in, like maybe Melissan saved you with Gorion or maybe she was a mentor for Sarevok under a different alias (why he doesn't recognize her in ToB) when he first rose to power. It would be cool to see her as the mastermind pulling all the string in the background, playing all the Bhaalspawn against eachother from the day they were born. Her character is underdeveloped, especially compared to Irenicus, but as arguably the most significant villain, she has the most potential for greatness (and improvement).
Ascension is awesome, but even after that I wish there was more to ToB.
But I really liked Belifhet. The gradual realization about who the actual villain in the game is was a big moment for me. Great and very satisfying ending of Icewind dale.
You're right that he could've captured you sooner if you worked with Bodhi, but he knew you would get to Spellhold either way.
As far as "leaving you in Spellhold", again "not unwatched". I don't guess you were supposed to survive. Bodhi was there with her cadre of vampires to make sure that you didn't. Sure, it was a bit arrogant (and therefore rookie villain move) not to handle your execution himself, but by that point, he wasn't afraid of an entire Elven Nation. Why worry about one single neutered (or so he assumed) adventurer/Bhaalspawn?
I'm not saying it's Shakespeare or anything, but it isn't exactly Wile E Coyotee either.
For me, Amelyssan is a close second, but Irenicus will always be my favourite villain in a video game because I just think he's well rounded. I almost didn't want to defeat him :P
As far as his actions in spellhold are concerned... he left you fully armed when he had you at his mercy. No excuses for that.
I just think Melissan is the "main" villain of the series. Since Irenicus wasn't really tied to your "destiny" or part of Alaundo's Prophecy, he seems kind of like an afterthought when all is said and done. He's more significant than a Firkraag, but he's not exactly arch-nemesis material for your main character (though kidnapping Imoen helps in that regard).
Unfortunately Melissan seems to be a big series of "what ifs" as well. She could have been as memorable as the other two, but ToB was rushed. Unlike many, I actually like ToB a lot, but I agree with most players that it seemed to lack a lot of what made the other two so much fun, and a big part was Melissan not being as fleshed out.
Or Beamdog with some DLC... wink wink...
And would you take the time to strip down ants of their armor and weapons? Or take the time to exterminate all of them? Or would you let your "Sister" who likes killing ants and wants a challenge, do it for you while you get on with the Important work of becoming a God?
by the time you catch up with him in Spellhold, he's crazy enough to think he is untouchable. Everyone is beneath him, you least of all because the only thing that made you even remotely special (your Bhaalspawn essence) has been stripped away from you. Even fully armed, you are gnats to him (in his brain) and of zero consequence. Yeah, this is a rookie move as far as arch villains are concerned, but not unheard of or unreasonable considering the character.
1. basically you are saying him screwing up was in character. Doesn't make his mistakes less stupid.
2. His journals were written after he had taken over spellhold. I was actually surprised by what he said in my last playthrough, since I spent the time to read all the little things
3. 'by choice' is not at all a logical conclusion. Why would he want to let the Bhaalspawn he needed escape, have to ensure that he a. finds out where Imoen is taken b. finds a way to get to a remote location that his notoriously difficult to reach c. doesn't get killed by someone like Firkraag along the way. In order to ensure success, he makes sure that Bodhi charges him 15,000 gp that he has to collect by doing incredibly dangerous jobs. On top of that he has to move his entire operation to a whole new location after being "so close to unlocking your power".
That makes no sense whatsoever. If he didn't look and sound so damn cool while doing it, none of us would forgive such incompetence!
But where's PS:T's last spoiler boss? "I can forge planes with my power. I can *unmake* you." I'll take moss badass boast for a hundred, please. Sure, the fight is pretty unmemorable, and like good old Mephy, it can be skipped (and is probably better skipped), but the sheer badassness can't be denied- that's a lot of power there, only bypassed because the Nameless One and his companions are so powerful themselves. And there's another with excellent voicing.
...Irenicus probably has the best voicing, though, yeah.
But he does not know the thing that can change the nature of a man.
Take away his evil spiky armour and you see a life full of tragedy, violence, ambition, love and sorrow.
Yes, yes - I know. I have a total bromance for the 'Vok.
Exactly, he is a classic example of an unreliable narrator, in this case being an actual player in the story.
He is flawed, he is wounded, he is misguided, and he doesn't see any of this until it is too late. It makes him great.