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There should be a reputation loss if you kill Unshey, Landrin and Zhurlong

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
During my recent playthrough as an evil assassin I found out that in the current version of BG:EE you don’t get any reputation loss if you kill Unshey (a lad who asks to return his belt), Landrin (a lady who asks to free her house from the spiders) and Zhurlong (a thief who asks to bring back his stealthy boots).

In case you don’t have any RP conscience you can easily complete their quests, get the reward and kill them to get even more experience and take those precious items from their corpses.

I think this is not how it should be.

You should get a reputation loss if you kill these people.

From my point of view, you have to choose whether to complete Unshey’s and Zhurlong’s quests or to take their items with you without getting a quest reward (of course, you can pickpocket them but it’s another story).



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Comments

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    A weak case can be made for leaving Zhurlong as is, but I'm inclined to agree with you on all three.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    you monster....
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    That...is not okay.

    Murdering random people without reputation loss is not okay.

    Unless you're a chaotic evil sorcerer who kills anyone who looks at you the wrong way, but that's another story. :D
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    As an aside, I do believe Unshey is a female dwarf, no? An author of sorts? This of course makes killing her no more or less deplorable than if she were a young lad.
    That Zhurlong, though (…)
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    I've found it interesting that while http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Unshey says this person is female, Dan Simpson here http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/75251-baldurs-gate/faqs/2456 says Unshey is male.

    Also it seems that in the previous version of the game his (her) murder resulted in a big reputation hit. See a comment to this article http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Unshey and this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30r-5P-4tg4&cd=4&ved=0CDgQtwIwAw&usg=AFQjCNFmwASCXC7SS1dQnrqeYSQ0BCMRkg.

    It should be mentioned Unshey is described as "innocent" by wikia.

    In case of Zhurlong I think the most important thing he is not hostile to you and gives all the stolen money back to you so he shouldn't be considered killable without a reputation loss.

    In case of Landrin if you have a high reception due to CHA and\or reputation you get antidotes as some help from her. The fact you can just kill her and get antidotes without any penalty seems to contradict to this high reception condition.
  • Aozgolo108Aozgolo108 Member Posts: 79
    I think it's just a matter of repute. We don't really KNOW these characters aside from their rather brief interactions with the PC. Reputation is a matter of subjectivity from those who know of your actions. I mean if you think about it, how many times do you kill, admittedly deserving, people in public places, particularly inn rooms? If we're so concerned with saying that there should be reputation loss with killing these few NPCs why not go further to ask why does nobody question your actions if you waltz into let's say Tranzig's room and murder him?

    For all we know people could be happy you rid the inn of that thieving dwarf. Maybe Landrin really planted those spiders herself and lied to get you to do her dirty work? Perhaps Unshey is in league with all manner of evil humanoids and sold off that belt to the ogre and wants you to kill him to recover it.

    Sure a detect evil spell might dismiss all of that but I don't think it's a big enough stretch to have certain characters be killable without a rep loss when it's not exactly a well known instance. Aside from those who KNOW that killing them has no rep loss (which is basically meta-gaming) anyone who would otherwise kill them anyway is well prepared for the consequences anyway. I don't know about you but I never went around quicksaving, killing off someone, then reloading just because "oh I guess I do less reputation"... it's kind of assumed in most cases that that will happen unless a quest specifically calls for their demise.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    As someone who plays predominantly evil characters or at least neutral CHARNAMEs traveling with evil party members, I nevertheless have to call that reasoning out as a bit of a stretch. These particular NPCs are developed little beyond their occupation, (if that), and gender. They are in plain sight of other people. Murdering them in cold blood justifies a reputation loss within the established codex of BG's rules, regardless of whatever backstories we may have invented for them.
    Except perhaps for Zhurlong…
  • CallirgosCallirgos Member Posts: 105
    Killing these characters should result in a reputation loss.

    For Zhurlong...
    IF he is hostile first, say from a failed pick pocket attempt (which is completely reasonable) THEN no reputation loss.
    On the other hand if he is being neutral, and you back stab him - yes, reputation loss.

    This would be so simple to do... 15 minutes tops.
  • GKL206GKL206 Member Posts: 75
    I'm shocked you can kill Unshey and Landerin without losing reputation. Zhurlong I can sort of understand but even then it should only be after he's turned hostile.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    GKL206 said:

    I'm shocked you can kill Unshey and Landerin without losing reputation. Zhurlong I can sort of understand but even then it should only be after he's turned hostile.

    I tried it in version 1.2 and I got a rep loss in both cases. So it must have appeared as a bug sometime after that. What version are you (or were you) running Bengoshi?
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,642
    I always thought you do get rep loss from killing Unshey. If I knew that you don't I would have killed him/her every time for the belt. I'm sure I've tried it and got a rep loss, and I haven't updated to 1.2 yet. I always kill Zhurlong though, annoying little bastard.
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    Zhurlong can be killed for no Rep Loss - Landrin and Unshey not so much, at least as of 1.2.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    @elminster‌

    It's intriguing. 1.2 with only the SCS installed. But it seems odd if this is connected to the SCS.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    image

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  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    @elminster‌

    Baldur's Gate works in mysterious ways ;)
  • Raphite01Raphite01 Member Posts: 20
    You shouldn't get any reputation loss for killing anyone when there are no witnesses. You should get waaay more than just reputation loss when killing someone when there are witnesses.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    You don't get a rep loss for killing Vitali (the thief in the Naskel Carnival tent) so I agree with being able to kill Zhurlong. They both steal from you after all.

    But I do try to rollplay it a bit depending on what alignment my main character is. True Neutral and up I don't kill. Chaotic Neutral or Evil and they're dead meat.
  • EtaminEtamin Member Posts: 830
    edited September 2014
    I want to confirm this bug is connected to SCS and precisely to "Smarter Mages" component (Priests seems to be Ok). Not only Unshley or Landrin killing doesn't cost reputation, but also Phlydia and Firebead Elvenhair in Candlekeep.
  • EtaminEtamin Member Posts: 830
    @CrevsDaak so is it intentional?
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Well, if the current situation (without SCS) is that it does cost REP to kill Landrin or Unshey but doesn't cost REP to kill Zhurlong, then I say "it ain't broke, so don't fix it!"

    After you give Zhurlong his Boots to complete the quest, if you speak to him again then he'll steal from you again, and you will notice it because your dialogue window will tell you. Just as every character in the game will turn hostile against you if he notices your Thief picking his pocket, so we're equally justified in turning hostile against Zhurlong when he's the one caught picking our pockets, and the fact that he hasn't turned hostile is irrelevant. By Forgotten Realms morality, we're amply justified in striking first and with no loss of REP, just as the target of a failed pocket-picking by your own Thief doesn't wait for you to turn hostile, he just attacks.

    So, leave well enough alone, it's already working correctly. (And anyway, my party's Thief needs those Boots :-))
  • EtaminEtamin Member Posts: 830
    It works correctly IF SCS is not installed. But with SCS many innocent mages doesn't cost reputation upon killing, so it's broken in my opinion.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Etamin - fair enough, but surely that's a "fix SCS" problem, not a "fix BG" problem!
  • EtaminEtamin Member Posts: 830
    I never said it's "fix BG" problem :)
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Okay then, we're agreed, @Etamin‌.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Etamin said:

    @CrevsDaak so is it intentional?

    Probably, i'm not inside @DavidW‌'s head :p
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    But killing Zhurlong is so justified though...
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Two points here :

    One, the reality point : no-one witnesses the act, it can't affect reputation (another unsolved mystery murder...)

    Two, the practical point : how many zots would have to be invested to provide checks that someone had witnessed said act (ala stealing, etc). Perhaps it is just not worth the work vs the result (checking for rep loss after killing someone if it was witnessed or not).

    It would be cool if such was implemented IMHO.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    I feel justified in greasing Zhurlong. He steals from you repeatedly. If the shoe was on the other foot everyone would turn against you. The others should result in Rep loss though.
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