@Bjjorick My gorge rises=it makes me want to puke. And I don't think it was one of the more erotic. We have the Queen in bed with the man who killed her husband, and Ophelia kills herself. I think "Twelfth Night" or "Two Gentlemen of Verona" would possibly be seen as more erotic. And there is also "A Midsummer Night's Dream" with Titania and Bottom and the lovers who wind up in the woods together.
And opponent? Really? I was merely pointing out that those phrases could look just as strange to modern eyes as the lines from Hamlet vis-a-vis the lines from Hamlet while pondering the skull of Horatio. And it's not that Hamlet is "not the most moral". It's that he refuses to accept the man who killed his father (his uncle) as the King, with a side order of being upset at his mother welcoming that man into her bed. The play points out the destructive nature of revenge. Hamlet gets his revenge, but also causes the death of people whom he loves, and himself (although his murderous uncle is also to blame for many of them, like the death of the Queen, who drinks poisoned wine prepared by the Uncle, Claudius, for Hamlet). And he only finds out about the murder when he sees and meets his father's ghost.
There is no other lines in that play that in any way hint that Hamlet is homosexual. Indeed, Hamlet seems to love Ophelia, but his obsession with the murder of his father is the proximate cause of her taking her own life.
@LadyRhian Sorry, i used the opponent comment just as we seem to be on different sides in most of the topics. I didn't mean it to suggest animosity, more of a use what you know about a person to help them see better on a difference of opinion. I'd odd though.
But, on your post, i see hamlet as a man that is willing to destroy a kingdom to avenge a king. A king that i'm sure built up and/or loved his kingdom. It may not have been his intention, but he was obviously willing to go that far, as that's what it came down to. He also seemed to love his mother romantically, i've heard numerous times about how his jealousy may have been fueled by the death of his father and the fact that he wasn't able to claim his mother. Put more tastefully usually. But as far as him being homosexual, that isn't what i was saying. He just seemed as though he, at the VERY LEAST, confused friendly love/family love with sexual/romantic love. As in he lacked the restraint and needed to possess all that he cared about. Perhaps i'm wrong and never read it all myself, and all my opinions could be based off of misconceptions, which is a very likely possibility.
but that moment coupled with what i do know, leads me to believe that he had what he desired, and if it wasn't given freely, he would take it by force and damn the consequences.
@Bjjorick Okay. Sorry for the jump to that conclusion.
He didn't intend to destroy the Kingdom- he was asked by his father's ghost to avenge his death. He agrees, and later regrets his agreement, realizing the spirit may have been lying. However, the spirit is correct, as Claudius (the King) admits to the same sin as Cain (who slew his brother) and talks about the stench of the deed (in private, mind you). And the Queen appears not to have known that her husband was killed by his brother. While the play has a Christian background, she never wonders if her soul will end up in Heaven or Hell and exhibits motherly love and concern for her son (because the Ghost is invisible to her, when she sees him arguing with and talking to it, she concludes that her son must be mad, as other people have been saying.
As far as I am aware, only one person claimed that Hamlet's love for the Queen was incestuous and that was a man named Jones, who was also the biographer of Freud and used his views and methods (and even Freud said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.") I am not aware of anyone who agreed with him in these views.
Perhaps you should read a synopsis of the play, and then the play itself. Hamlet didn't forge ahead come hell or high water. He's one of Shakespeare's most tormented Heroes. He's committed himself to avenging his father's death, but he dithers, wanting to make sure that Claudius really committed the crime the Ghost accused him of. In the play, he has a group of players put on a play called "The Death of Gonzago", using the method of his father's death (as related to him by the ghost) and watches Claudius to see his reaction. "The play's the thing, wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King." Claudius runs out of the play, confirming (for Hamlet) the accusation of the Ghost.
hmmm, as i said, bits and pieces and we all have our own failings. Part of mine is my inability to overcome certain things, and maybe this play has it merits, but once more, it seems to me that the evils of men lead to the evils of men. It's actually nice to have a female in a shakespearian story that isn't manipultive, young and foolish, loving but manipultive. I still haven't figured out brute's wife, so maybe that's another. But for the credit i give her, i would find it very hard to trust her unless she was my wife.
And yeah, my info is 2nd hand so my arguement is moot. I'm not quite ready to read this one yet, but the reason is more then i admitted to. In life, i learned very young that there is only one first time for everything, and if you do too much too fast, you lose the hope of one more first time. This doesn't apply in relationships or things of that nature, but in stories and thoughts and certain experience, i prefer to hold back so that i still have that one experience to come. I went though most of the others work quite quickly, and seemed to understand them better then those around me, but that's not a mark of intelligence, but of enjoyment. If you enjoy it, you'll find a way to dig deeper into it.
But i still fully expect to find a man lacking in morals. I know the story as a man standing at a house looking into it knows a house. I know pieces, but not the warmth that may lie within. For now, i think i'll stand outside and dream of what may or may not be. And if it's not what i expect, all the better.
But unless i'm just immature and grow out it, i still expect to find it homoerotic. Ehh, at least now i know that it's not a constant theme though out the story (i hope).
Ragnar is the name I use the most. It is a name that goes well with fighting classes and fighter/mage. I use it on fighters, fighter/mage and even on archer class.
@ladyrhian you insult me maddam. Only the most enlightened can judge a book by it's cover. Or pretend to sound smart when they can't even spell madam.
besides, takes a long time to clear out all the cobwebs. there are books i could recite nearly word for word, cover to cover. Takes most of the fun out of reading them.
@Bjjorick I find that a steel-bristled brush through the ear holes is perfect for cleaning out mental cobwebs. You'll see things in a whole different way afterwards, trust me!
@ladyrhian sorry, but as a personal rule, i never accept advice from a person unless they have first hand experience doing it. Now, should that be the case.....
I guess i could wait around for awhile if you want to run and try it first? (typically lawful/neutral good in game, seem chaotic neutral irl)
Kharas is probably the name I have used most as main charafter name. It goes for fighting type of chars. Its the name of a dwarf warriorsmith from Dragonlance. And since I started playing PnP just after I had finished that book series, it came natural
Other char names are usualy either something I make up on the spot, or names of gods from either the Dragonlance or the Forgotten realms pantheons.
Yes.. naming my chars after gods.. I am a humble kind of person
@ladyrhian hmmmm, so are you going to teach me to do it? i mean, it's quite unfair that you always give no one is ever able to return the favor, right? That seems an injustice to you that must be rectified. By the power of Boo, this travesty shall NOT stand!!!
@Kharas I loved the dragonlance books, and read many of the spin off books as well, so i can understand you taking a name from there. I just hated how the pally in the story died. It was quite unexpected for me.
@Bjjorick Ahh yes.. Sturm Brightblade.. Knight of Solamnia.. He really were a great character.. I were damn sad when he died as well
I have always liked the knights of Solamnia.. just because he were the first "knightly" character I really liked. And then Kitiara goes and kill him.. that Bitch!!!
@Kharas I liked the two red Dragons at the end of the first book, and how the Senile Queen Red Dragon killed the male Red Dragon. "Must... protect... the children!"
Although I must admit.. I remember reading that passage.. but for the life of me I cant put it into context
And even though the death of Sturm were damn sad.. the one moment in the dragonlance Chronicles that tore most at my heart.. were when Flint Fireforge died
@Kharas I found the mage interesting in the story, i don't remember the names, but when he was cursed to see death in all around him, and then he saw the elven female that was paired with the elven mage, her being described though his eyes was a very powerful moment for my teenage years. How all around her and behind her and even in the sky above, he saw death, but upon her was not even the smallest of blemish. Probably far from accurate to the words written there, but the scene stuck with me.
And yeah, Sturm Brightblade, the most honorable man i've ever known, who revived the dragonlances, discovered their secrects, and died before having a chance to use it. Or i have that backwards, he revived them and died trying to use it without knowing it's secret, but i seem to recall that there was a meeting and his made his appearance on the scene by throwing the lance at it full power and shattering a might bolder to draw the attention of those around him.
Long time ago, i still have the 3 main books, maybe i should read them again.
Ye.. Raistlin Majere were one hell of a good character. Starting out wanting to save the world, and as times goes by, his allignment, and his robe, changes to reflect his new view of the world.
Weak to begin with, his trial in the tower of Wayreth (spelling?), left him a shattered man. Broken in body but not in spirit.
He is by far my favorite evil mage character.
Sturm did recover the dragonlance during a expedition to the Icewall. But he died at the siege of High Clerist tower, before the knights of Solamnia got a chance to use the Dragonlances as they are meant to be used, riding on the back of good dragons.
Hmm.. seems to be some time since I have read them as well.. guess I should spend some of the time waiting for BGEE going trough them again
@Kharas I liked Kitiara, well except for that moment when she killed Sturm. Even without having officially taking the oath He was more 'Knightly' than most of the other knights.
@Bjjorick His name was Raistlin. one of his nicknames\titles ended up being The Hourglass Mage.
@Jolanthus Raistlin, if i remembered anything it should have been that, thank you. But i did remember the hourglass eyes. And maybe it's just, but the main elf male char (name possibly started with a T) i did not care for. He seemed a bit shallow compared to the other chars. Not in fighting ability or anything, just as a person.
@Kharas You know, the moment when Raistlin changed his red robes for black wasn't played off to be to epic a moment, as far as i recall, but to me, it was. It was the moment when he accepted what he was and decided to start kicking ass, and he did alot of ass kicking. I think his brother held him back for awhile earlier, but i do remember that most people distrusted red mages, but tolerated them. It was common thinking that a red mage was just a step away from taking up the black robes. I should have saw that as foreshadowing, but i was young and loved the way the story was told.
@Bjjorick Ye.. if I remember correct it were while their ship were falling into the maelstrom, while being attacked by a blue dragon.. Caramon runs to Raistlins room to save him, as he have so many times before, and see his brother teleport away. I cant remember if he had changed robe already there, of it if were the next time you "meet him" in the library of Palanthas..
@Jolanthus Well.. I really liked the early stories about Kitiara Uth Matar.. and she does redeem herself a little by carrying Sturms son.. But after she becomes the Blue Lady she irritates me a good bit
@Jolanthus yeah, i was thinking Tarin, so i wasn't far off, but i knew that didn't sound right. Lol, did you read them recently? and do you have the extended books, i read most but mostly finding them at flea markets/yard sales, and the one where Raistlin over took the dark goddess and set himself up as a god, i could never find. The queen of blades, queen of spiders? what was she the queen of? hmmm i'm getting old i guess.
@kharas it was right after, he teleported away and was soaking wet in a library, and that caused him to take off his robe, he reached for the red, stopped, and grabbed the black. It's been a looooooong time but i seem to remember that's the case.
@Bjjorick It's been a while since I've read any dragonlance novel. The Hourglass Mage is still sitting waiting to be read though which is annoying me greatly as that's the one book in The Lost Chronicles trilogy that I was really waiting for.
@jolanthus was the same, but sadly, never found a copy. i need to go look through the childhood possesions i still have and see if i have any of the books left, and if so, how many. but thank you both for reminding me of this great saga.
Shannara was my first BG character, using the red-headed warrior with the sword covering half her face. I'd just seen the book on the shelves and thought it was a cool name for a female warrior. She didn't make it far in BG2, as I recall.
My BG2 character was Kenjimoto Tsudoke, a monk (of course). He finished BG2.
Those are my only two 'finish the game' characters. I've tried a few other iterations, but never went too far. Not sure why or why not. I love the game, though.
My favoured last name shall be kept a secret, but as for my first name:
My main character in the BG series is almost always named Anduine, and he is either a NG Fighter or LG Paladin/Cavalier.
I almost always prefer to wield two-handed swords, but I sometimes wield a longsword or bastard sword and shield, with the occasional warhammer mixed in.
Comments
And opponent? Really? I was merely pointing out that those phrases could look just as strange to modern eyes as the lines from Hamlet vis-a-vis the lines from Hamlet while pondering the skull of Horatio. And it's not that Hamlet is "not the most moral". It's that he refuses to accept the man who killed his father (his uncle) as the King, with a side order of being upset at his mother welcoming that man into her bed. The play points out the destructive nature of revenge. Hamlet gets his revenge, but also causes the death of people whom he loves, and himself (although his murderous uncle is also to blame for many of them, like the death of the Queen, who drinks poisoned wine prepared by the Uncle, Claudius, for Hamlet). And he only finds out about the murder when he sees and meets his father's ghost.
There is no other lines in that play that in any way hint that Hamlet is homosexual. Indeed, Hamlet seems to love Ophelia, but his obsession with the murder of his father is the proximate cause of her taking her own life.
But, on your post, i see hamlet as a man that is willing to destroy a kingdom to avenge a king. A king that i'm sure built up and/or loved his kingdom. It may not have been his intention, but he was obviously willing to go that far, as that's what it came down to. He also seemed to love his mother romantically, i've heard numerous times about how his jealousy may have been fueled by the death of his father and the fact that he wasn't able to claim his mother. Put more tastefully usually. But as far as him being homosexual, that isn't what i was saying. He just seemed as though he, at the VERY LEAST, confused friendly love/family love with sexual/romantic love. As in he lacked the restraint and needed to possess all that he cared about. Perhaps i'm wrong and never read it all myself, and all my opinions could be based off of misconceptions, which is a very likely possibility.
but that moment coupled with what i do know, leads me to believe that he had what he desired, and if it wasn't given freely, he would take it by force and damn the consequences.
He didn't intend to destroy the Kingdom- he was asked by his father's ghost to avenge his death. He agrees, and later regrets his agreement, realizing the spirit may have been lying. However, the spirit is correct, as Claudius (the King) admits to the same sin as Cain (who slew his brother) and talks about the stench of the deed (in private, mind you). And the Queen appears not to have known that her husband was killed by his brother. While the play has a Christian background, she never wonders if her soul will end up in Heaven or Hell and exhibits motherly love and concern for her son (because the Ghost is invisible to her, when she sees him arguing with and talking to it, she concludes that her son must be mad, as other people have been saying.
As far as I am aware, only one person claimed that Hamlet's love for the Queen was incestuous and that was a man named Jones, who was also the biographer of Freud and used his views and methods (and even Freud said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.") I am not aware of anyone who agreed with him in these views.
Perhaps you should read a synopsis of the play, and then the play itself. Hamlet didn't forge ahead come hell or high water. He's one of Shakespeare's most tormented Heroes. He's committed himself to avenging his father's death, but he dithers, wanting to make sure that Claudius really committed the crime the Ghost accused him of. In the play, he has a group of players put on a play called "The Death of Gonzago", using the method of his father's death (as related to him by the ghost) and watches Claudius to see his reaction. "The play's the thing, wherein I'll catch the conscience of the King." Claudius runs out of the play, confirming (for Hamlet) the accusation of the Ghost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet - Synopsis
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/hamlet/full.html -The text of the play
And yeah, my info is 2nd hand so my arguement is moot. I'm not quite ready to read this one yet, but the reason is more then i admitted to. In life, i learned very young that there is only one first time for everything, and if you do too much too fast, you lose the hope of one more first time. This doesn't apply in relationships or things of that nature, but in stories and thoughts and certain experience, i prefer to hold back so that i still have that one experience to come. I went though most of the others work quite quickly, and seemed to understand them better then those around me, but that's not a mark of intelligence, but of enjoyment. If you enjoy it, you'll find a way to dig deeper into it.
But i still fully expect to find a man lacking in morals. I know the story as a man standing at a house looking into it knows a house. I know pieces, but not the warmth that may lie within. For now, i think i'll stand outside and dream of what may or may not be. And if it's not what i expect, all the better.
But unless i'm just immature and grow out it, i still expect to find it homoerotic. Ehh, at least now i know that it's not a constant theme though out the story (i hope).
besides, takes a long time to clear out all the cobwebs. there are books i could recite nearly word for word, cover to cover. Takes most of the fun out of reading them.
I guess i could wait around for awhile if you want to run and try it first? (typically lawful/neutral good in game, seem chaotic neutral irl)
Other char names are usualy either something I make up on the spot, or names of gods from either the Dragonlance or the Forgotten realms pantheons.
Yes.. naming my chars after gods.. I am a humble kind of person
@Kharas I loved the dragonlance books, and read many of the spin off books as well, so i can understand you taking a name from there. I just hated how the pally in the story died. It was quite unexpected for me.
I have always liked the knights of Solamnia.. just because he were the first "knightly" character I really liked. And then Kitiara goes and kill him.. that Bitch!!!
but mayhap i should go into no further details.
It were a really good "awwww" moment
Although I must admit.. I remember reading that passage.. but for the life of me I cant put it into context
And even though the death of Sturm were damn sad.. the one moment in the dragonlance Chronicles that tore most at my heart.. were when Flint Fireforge died
Left a poor little me all crushed!
And yeah, Sturm Brightblade, the most honorable man i've ever known, who revived the dragonlances, discovered their secrects, and died before having a chance to use it. Or i have that backwards, he revived them and died trying to use it without knowing it's secret, but i seem to recall that there was a meeting and his made his appearance on the scene by throwing the lance at it full power and shattering a might bolder to draw the attention of those around him.
Long time ago, i still have the 3 main books, maybe i should read them again.
Ye.. Raistlin Majere were one hell of a good character. Starting out wanting to save the world, and as times goes by, his allignment, and his robe, changes to reflect his new view of the world.
Weak to begin with, his trial in the tower of Wayreth (spelling?), left him a shattered man. Broken in body but not in spirit.
He is by far my favorite evil mage character.
Sturm did recover the dragonlance during a expedition to the Icewall. But he died at the siege of High Clerist tower, before the knights of Solamnia got a chance to use the Dragonlances as they are meant to be used, riding on the back of good dragons.
Hmm.. seems to be some time since I have read them as well.. guess I should spend some of the time waiting for BGEE going trough them again
@Bjjorick His name was Raistlin. one of his nicknames\titles ended up being The Hourglass Mage.
@Kharas You know, the moment when Raistlin changed his red robes for black wasn't played off to be to epic a moment, as far as i recall, but to me, it was. It was the moment when he accepted what he was and decided to start kicking ass, and he did alot of ass kicking. I think his brother held him back for awhile earlier, but i do remember that most people distrusted red mages, but tolerated them. It was common thinking that a red mage was just a step away from taking up the black robes. I should have saw that as foreshadowing, but i was young and loved the way the story was told.
@Jolanthus Well.. I really liked the early stories about Kitiara Uth Matar.. and she does redeem herself a little by carrying Sturms son.. But after she becomes the Blue Lady she irritates me a good bit
@kharas it was right after, he teleported away and was soaking wet in a library, and that caused him to take off his robe, he reached for the red, stopped, and grabbed the black. It's been a looooooong time but i seem to remember that's the case.
My BG2 character was Kenjimoto Tsudoke, a monk (of course). He finished BG2.
Those are my only two 'finish the game' characters. I've tried a few other iterations, but never went too far. Not sure why or why not. I love the game, though.
My main character in the BG series is almost always named Anduine, and he is either a NG Fighter or LG Paladin/Cavalier.
I almost always prefer to wield two-handed swords, but I sometimes wield a longsword or bastard sword and shield, with the occasional warhammer mixed in.
@jmanreis : Nice portrait.