What are the best worst NPC mods?

golingarf

I've been reading the complaints about some of the npc mods for BG2, and I've decided I definitely have to try a soap-opera-themed game with Saerileth, Tsujatha, and Chloe. Everybody seems to despise them, but honestly they sound completely awesome to me, in a Rocky Horror Picture Show kind of way. Solaufein will make a cameo as well.

Are there any other bizarre or outrageous yet well-developed npc's out there that deserve to be added to this party? Stats or even classes are no issue to me - I plan on nerfing the hell out of all of them, so I'm only interested in their personalities. Also, is there a way to get romances to work simultaneously? I'm considering throwing in the infamous Anomen affair as well, since I've never done that.

chrstnmonks

I played the tsujatha one in my opinion it was pretty well done do not know about chloe or saerlith

vangoat

You could try Kelsey I guess. Everyone seemed to love him but he seemed lame to me

Blackraven

I like Isra (Cavalier) for both BG1 and BG2 (though I haven't fully played her in BG2). Playful Dace the Bounty Hunter (SoA/ToB). Laidback Gavin the Lathandrite (BG1&2). Mur'Neth (BG1) is an interesting character.

None of these NPCs is overpowered, they have nice dialogue, and are voiced, which is something I really like. (Dace IMO is even "too voiced", as in her full dialogues.)

Adrian (Sorcerer SoA/TOB, non-voiced) is nice as well, subtle evil.

Necomancer

All I remember about the Kelsey mod is some old ancient wizard order hated him because he was so awesome and an NPC female showed up specificly to warn him and call him handsome before she left. Oh, and he romances Imoen, that character that people would want to romance if it wasn't for the incest thing.

...Yeah I...I gotta admit, he kinda felt like a self-insert.

Edit:It doesn't help I just learned Kesley's portrait is a modified picture of the author of the mod itself.

CrevsDaak

I once discovered a NPC mod named Cawn Troll Pluskyu. The installation was my favorite part. I just had to add a line to my baldur.ini and press CRTL+Q a bunch of times, awesome NPC mod, never regreted installing it.

SionIV

Saerileth is without doubt the worst. Any NPC that will fall over and actually die from a broken heart takes the top spot.

jacobtan

Most NPC mods are fine if you're not out to wreck them. Many mod NPCs are pretty needy but then again, there are many people in real-life (probably some players too) who are broken or otherwise emotionally fragile.

Of these, Saerileth probably takes the cake for being overly intrusive, melodramatic and unbelievable. Bad classes/stats can be solved with EEKeeper, bad voice acting can be tuned out, but an intrusive mod with an implausible story can't be resolved.

Glam_Vrock

jacobtan said:

Of these, Saerileth probably takes the cake for being overly intrusive, melodramatic and unbelievable. Bad classes/stats can be solved with EEKeeper, bad voice acting can be tuned out, but an intrusive mod with an implausible story can't be resolved.

You think so?

CHALLENGE: Rewrite Saerileth and make it good. Not "better", because literally anyone could do that. Make it GOOD. Or at least as good as NPC mods get.

Anyway, I dunno if the OP's reading this since it took a month for people to start responding, but if so, try this. I'm too scared to play it but you seem like a man on the edge.

Necomancer

Glam_Vrock said:

jacobtan said:

Of these, Saerileth probably takes the cake for being overly intrusive, melodramatic and unbelievable. Bad classes/stats can be solved with EEKeeper, bad voice acting can be tuned out, but an intrusive mod with an implausible story can't be resolved.

You think so?

CHALLENGE: Rewrite Saerileth and make it good. Not "better", because literally anyone could do that. Make it GOOD. Or at least as good as NPC mods get.

Anyway, I dunno if the OP's reading this since it took a month for people to start responding, but if so, try this. I'm too scared to play it but you seem like a man on the edge.

Step one: Make her not 15 years old.

Step two:Make it so she can accept behavior that isn't 100% goodie niceness.

Step Three:Make it so you can even corrupt her into accepting bad behavior.

Step four:Keep her obsession for you but make CHARNAME able to encourage it for romantic or manipulative reasons or act as a mentor for a young girl in need of guidance. Possibly keep her 15. It might be nice to have an apprentice.

Step five:Tone down the "romance" considerably.

Step six: Get rid of the annoying little bits and minor fixes to dialogue to make it more believable and less like a hopeless romantic love quest a 15 year old boy/girl would imagine. You can keep that guy who loves her but it'd be nice to be able to explain to him hes a creepy obsessive man child and needs to realize that he doesn't love Saerileth so much as he loves the idea of her.

There you go, now you have a NPC who is either a corruptible young lady, a youthful romance or a stalwart apprentice. That being said without actually editing and re-writing the mod theres no way to prove mine would actually be better (Hell, could be worse somehow) and I would *never* actually do that. Even if I knew how to mod changing someone else's work like that without permission is rude beyond acceptable limits. I might offer advice, I might criticize but actually changing it without permission is a total dick move.

jacobtan

Glam_Vrock said:

jacobtan said:

Of these, Saerileth probably takes the cake for being overly intrusive, melodramatic and unbelievable. Bad classes/stats can be solved with EEKeeper, bad voice acting can be tuned out, but an intrusive mod with an implausible story can't be resolved.

You think so?

CHALLENGE: Rewrite Saerileth and make it good. Not "better", because literally anyone could do that. Make it GOOD. Or at least as good as NPC mods get.

Anyway, I dunno if the OP's reading this since it took a month for people to start responding, but if so, try this. I'm too scared to play it but you seem like a man on the edge.

That is a tall order LOL

Realistically, there is no "good" NPC mod, just mods that individual players can tolerate. I mentioned that mods should not be intrusive (interjecting your play frequently) and most importantly, the story must be plausible. Sadly, "plausibility" is not an objective benchmark, with some people more able (and willing) to stretch the boundaries of believability than others.

Nevertheless, there are some parts of Saerileth that I find unbelievable, starting from the background:

1. 15-year old paladin of Tyr sent from Mount Celestia on a special mission? Even Cadderly, Chosen of Deneir (lesser deity) was already a L20 Cleric with special powers so for Tyr, a greater deity with many powerful followers, to have a chosen with fledgling powers join your party... sounds farfetched.

2. She talks too much, tries to boss you around, and yes, for someone who seems steadfast in her beliefs and purpose (think Ajantis or Keldorn), she drops her mission too easily if you upset her and can even die from heartbreak, which is very out of character for someone presumably grounded in unwavering faith.

3. For all the talk about her being on a mission, she sounds more like she's here to get laid. And dying literally of heartbreak? This is not a soap opera.


Off-handedly, there are some possible ideas to include in a Saerileth rewrite, but introducing them would probably change her into a totally different character... to the point that it might be easier to create a new character.

a. Change her background so that it is less grandiose/pompous. She should not steal the limelight.

b. Her background should contribute to her psychological profile, with a few resultant character weaknesses that the PC observes, highlights and works it through (like an expanded version of Valygar pointing out Mazzy's overcompensation). Maybe she wavers as her quest approaches completion due to lack of experience/confidence, or due to her young age/upbringing, she is at once confused yet longing for what common people take for granted, like the simple childhood the PC had with Gorion.

c. Stay off the sex. Romance does not always have to lead to sex.

d. Introduce some tragic element for the poignant factor. IMO one of the best parts of Viconia's romance is that she is forever living in the shadow of Lolth's retribution. She was attacked by a yochlol and she is eventually slain by a Lolthite agent in the romance epilogue.

e. Do. Not. Literally. Die. Of. Heartbreak. Such a melodramatic description disconnects the reader from the story and turns it from a tragedy to a farce.


As for the Furry mod, I won't cast a stone at it. It looks like a lone modder's desire to satisfy his fantasy. I don't think it's something that appeals to me, but neither is it something that should invite ridicule if the modder should wish to share it. Saerileth, on the other hand, is a bit too ambitious for its own good by presenting itself as something far greater than it is.


J

Glam_Vrock

jacobtan said:

As for the Furry mod, I won't cast a stone at it. It looks like an lone modder's desire to satisfy his fantasy. I don't think it's something that appeals to me, but neither is it something that should invite ridicule if the modder should wish to share it.

Saerileth being 15 was probably some modder's desire to satisfy a fantasy, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea or that it isn't incredibly cringingly awkward and badly written.

SionIV

@Necomancer
@jacobtan‌

Couldn't have said it better when it comes to Saerileth

jacobtan

Glam_Vrock said:

jacobtan said:

As for the Furry mod, I won't cast a stone at it. It looks like an lone modder's desire to satisfy his fantasy. I don't think it's something that appeals to me, but neither is it something that should invite ridicule if the modder should wish to share it.

Saerileth being 15 was probably some modder's desire to satisfy a fantasy, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea or that it isn't incredibly cringingly awkward and badly written.

Agreed. Then again, Saerileth's mod page has tons of accolades (not sure if they are real or fake LOL), compared to a small, relatively nondescript page for Furry...

The bigger they are, the harder they are hit. Or so says Minsc.

Glam_Vrock

If someone doesn't feel their Baldur's Gate experience is complete without a homosexual anthropomorphic raccoon, whatever, but I don't understand how they end up going "I think there might be an audience for this."

jacobtan

Glam_Vrock said:

If someone doesn't feel their Baldur's Gate experience is complete without a homosexual anthropomorphic raccoon, whatever, but I don't understand how they end up going "I think there might be an audience for this."

There are some things in life that are never meant to be understood... how would he know if there is no audience if he doesn't put it out?

Necomancer

Most of these mods have very little to do with BG. In fact, thats exactly the problem. What Saerileth and that racoon mod most likely want to do is have their own story featured, their own character thrust forward, and BG mods gives them an audience to throw their ideas at. They aren't thinking "This would be a great character for Baldur's Gate!" they're thinking "I'm going to show everyone my story/character and see how impressed they are!". Though honestly I doubt the furry mod maker expects that, most likely they expect...Well, exactly whats happening here. Ridicule and mockery amongst most people, though they probably have a stable of friends or people who like the idea that are willing to tell them if their mod is good or not.

Its kinda sad, really. No matter how bad or good their mod is everyone will focus on the fact its a homosexual raccoon. Personally? I'm focusing on the fact its a lawful neutral druid. Totally not allowed by 2nd edition rules and is it really necessary for them to be lawful neutral? True neutral isn't that far from lawful neutral after all.

Glam_Vrock

Necomancer said:

Its kinda sad, really. No matter how bad or good their mod is everyone will focus on the fact its a homosexual raccoon.

This isn't sad, because there is nothing else to focus on.

Seriously, being 100% objective, there is nothing noteworthy about this mod besides being a furry who asks a male Charname for sex right the hell out of nowhere. I actually regret suggesting it now, because once you get past that, it's just boring. He has no goals, no conflict and only the barest shred of a personality. It's a gay raccoon. That's all it is.

jacobtan

Necomancer said:

Most of these mods have very little to do with BG. In fact, thats exactly the problem. What Saerileth and that racoon mod most likely want to do is have their own story featured, their own character thrust forward, and BG mods gives them an audience to throw their ideas at. They aren't thinking "This would be a great character for Baldur's Gate!" they're thinking "I'm going to show everyone my story/character and see how impressed they are!". Though honestly I doubt the furry mod maker expects that, most likely they expect...Well, exactly whats happening here. Ridicule and mockery amongst most people, though they probably have a stable of friends or people who like the idea that are willing to tell them if their mod is good or not.

Its kinda sad, really. No matter how bad or good their mod is everyone will focus on the fact its a homosexual raccoon. Personally? I'm focusing on the fact its a lawful neutral druid. Totally not allowed by 2nd edition rules and is it really necessary for them to be lawful neutral? True neutral isn't that far from lawful neutral after all.

Actually, a "lawful neutral homosexual raccoon druid" can be a recipe for a great back story that makes the character more appealing. It's not unsalvageable story-wise. Possible questions to consider may include:

1. How did a raccoon acquire sentience and became a druid (there does seem to be a skeleton of a background so it can be expanded on)
2. Why is this druid LN instead of N? Is this a racial thing or did something happen along the way?
3. What are its goals/aspirations and personality? A raccoon did not come to civilization by accident, no?

IMO, I find this character's lack of a fleshed-out background easier to work with compared to someone like Saerileth's, whose background is fleshed out but is implausible to the point of suspension of belief (at least to D&D veterans with even some passing knowledge of realmslore). A relatively clean canvas can be worked on with greater ease than one that already has lots of stuff painted on it.

jacobtan

Alright. 5 minute attempt at conceiving a story. This is not to put down the furry mod creator, but more as a proof of concept that skeletal backstories can be salvaged:

1. The raccoon is one of a reclusive race of anthropomorphic raccoons worshipping various sylvan deities, in a tightly regimented culture focusing on protecting their environment (the druid factor) but in a regimented and clockwork manner (LN)
2. The raccoon's ancestor tried to violate the community's high priestess and his bloodline was cursed. Members of their bloodline will have various alternate sexualities and be driven by periodic rages of lust
3. This raccoon was treated as a pariah by his community and left to seek a redemption/cure for the curse, and this eventually brought him to Amn.
4. Personality-wise, he can be described as someone who tries to fulfill his responsibilities to nature (druid) but is shamed and frustrated by his curse and the lustful rages that he flies into. Longs for a normal life in his old community but despairs because he knows of no way out
5. A possible questline is to have someone who can reverse the curse cast on him. Probably a geas/quest for the druidic superior in charge of his community. Redemption will mean the curse is lifted and he may be granted some minor powers. Obviously, the PC is here to help
6. And of course, it may be possible that at the quest's conclusion, the raccoon elects to remain homosexual, but without the lustful rages. Why not?

Necomancer

@Glam_Vrock Didn't you say you didn't even play it and have no intention to? How do you know thats all there is to it? A brief look at the forum reveals there is banter, some interjections and such. If you actually did play it or have a source of information on how the character acts then I suppose you have a point, but I just find it odd that you're so sure theres nothing more to the mod if you never even tried it.

@jacobtan All good points. I've often considered running a DnD campaign with nothing but awakened animals. animals who are now sentient. The idea does have some appeal, if only because you'd have a character with a very unique perspective on the world. Also, bear wizard would be possible, and who wouldn't want to be a bear wizard?

jacobtan

Necomancer said:

@Glam_Vrock Didn't you say you didn't even play it and have no intention to? How do you know thats all there is to it? A brief look at the forum reveals there is banter, some interjections and such. If you actually did play it or have a source of information on how the character acts then I suppose you have a point, but I just find it odd that you're so sure theres nothing more to the mod if you never even tried it.

@jacobtan All good points. I've often considered running a DnD campaign with nothing but awakened animals. animals who are now sentient. The idea does have some appeal, if only because you'd have a character with a very unique perspective on the world. Also, bear wizard would be possible, and who wouldn't want to be a bear wizard?

I'm very fond of bears! And yes, there are bear wizards. Ursinals that inhabit Elysium

Necomancer

jacobtan said:

Alright. 5 minute attempt at conceiving a story. This is not to put down the furry mod creator, but more as a proof of concept that skeletal backstories can be salvaged:

1. The raccoon is one of a reclusive race of anthropomorphic raccoons worshipping various sylvan deities, in a tightly regimented culture focusing on protecting their environment (the druid factor) but in a regimented and clockwork manner (LN)
2. The raccoon's ancestor tried to violate the community's high priestess and his bloodline was cursed. Members of their bloodline will have various alternate sexualities and be driven by periodic rages of lust
3. This raccoon was treated as a pariah by his community and left to seek a redemption/cure for the curse, and this eventually brought him to Amn.
4. Personality-wise, he can be described as someone who tries to fulfill his responsibilities to nature (druid) but is shamed and frustrated by his curse and the lustful rages that he flies into. Longs for a normal life in his old community but despairs because he knows of no way out
5. A possible questline is to have someone who can reverse the curse cast on him. Probably a geas/quest for the druidic superior in charge of his community. Redemption will mean the curse is lifted and he may be granted some minor powers. Obviously, the PC is here to help

This works for the most part but the idea of curse turning someone homosexual might not exactly be well received by people. I doubt thats what you went for, but thats how people might view it. Honestly? I'd add a bit of humor here or there when it comes to his lustful urges. Such as him being caught idly eyeing a passing stray cat then quickly getting defensive about the whole thing.

Glam_Vrock

Necomancer said:

@Glam_Vrock Didn't you say you didn't even play it and have no intention to? How do you know thats all there is to it? A brief look at the forum reveals there is banter, some interjections and such.

Reading the dialogue files.

Know how many interjections there are? Four. Know how many are interesting or entertaining? Hint: The answer is less than four.

jacobtan

Yes, it was not meant to be offensive. I rather enjoy the Nathaniel mod because I see that properly imagined, his sexuality can be fodder for very deep and engaging discussions.

If we want a different tack we can always change the story:

2. The raccoon was awakened to his sexuality and did not feel comfortable in his community, hence he left on his own accord to wander and to find a home and community where he truly belonged, OR

3. He was cursed with lustful rages, and he just happened to be homosexual. That's all. So he left to find a cure for his rages

But regardless, the whole idea of this exercise is not to single out any group for criticism or anything, but to show that a blank character's back story can be quite easily filled with some imagination and coherence. It doesn't have to be farfetched or fantastical.

Necomancer

Both those work, though I'd take the first one. I think there are people out there who could relate to the feeling of abandonment and not belonging

jacobtan

Necomancer said:

Both those work, though I'd take the first one. I think there are people out there who could relate to the feeling of abandonment and not belonging

Before this discussion goes off track too much... for the OP, perhaps you could consider Tashia too?

And yes @Necomancer‌, now that you remind me, in Werewolf Isle (BG), many of the werewolves keep repeating this phrase "You do not belong". If this raccoon is included as a BG NPC, perhaps he will have something to say, thereby helping him immerse into the game better? Rasaad, as a worshipper of Selune, goddess of outcasts, may also identify with the poor raccoon. Possible friendship track there. There are many ways to fit a new NPC into the BG world. Just takes some looking. And spinning a bit of yarn here and there.

Necomancer

@jacobtan That all sounds good. I think you've officially taken a character who was just a gay raccoon and made him interesting. Congrats!

Quartz

Necomancer said:

Most of these mods have very little to do with BG. In fact, thats exactly the problem. What Saerileth and that racoon mod most likely want to do is have their own story featured, their own character thrust forward, and BG mods gives them an audience to throw their ideas at. They aren't thinking "This would be a great character for Baldur's Gate!" they're thinking "I'm going to show everyone my story/character and see how impressed they are!".

Ding ding ding. Yeah this is why I hate most NPC mods.

Quartz

Necomancer said:

@jacobtan That all sounds good. I think you've officially taken a character who was just a gay raccoon and made him interesting. Congrats!

Just a gay raccoo-oon~
Livin' in a looonely wo-orld~
He took the midnight train to-o Athkatla~

booinyoureyes

Just a furry boss,
Born and raised in South Ber-e-gost,
He took Kagain's caravan,
Goin' aaaa-ny-where

an enchanter in Mulahey's room,
All he does is whine 'bout do-oo-oom,
For a smile they can share the night
It goes on and on and on and on