Problematic classes and kits in low level

mlnevese

I was just playing BGT and decided to try something that I had never tried before. A half-orc berserker...

Now the berserker special hability is nice, but you get -15 HP when the Berserker ends. My 19 con berserker has exactly 15HP, so using his special hability means intant death when the effec is over on level 1.

Also I remembered when I tried to play a Kensai and a Monk and discovered it was quite difficult to keep them alive as level 1 chararacters...

I can see a complete newbie quite pissed that his level 1 berserker died for using his enrage hability to fight the wizard that attacks you in te Friendly Arms Inn or bored because his monk has to run from foes all the time...

So what other classes/kits do you see as problematic at low levels and what can be done to fix them? Or should nothing be done at all? Maybe a warning when creating the charachter?

Solyaris

use parties in a party-balanced game?

mlnevese

Sure, but how does it prevent a newbie from creating a character that will die if he uses his special ability, regardless of the party?

Not everyone has been playing this game for years or have any knowledge of 2nd editiod AD&D system mechanics.

Anyone who has played thsi game know to wait until at least 2nd level BEFORE trying to rage, but we can't expect a complete newbie to know or even realize that.

Some warning should be given the first time a player creates a Berserker, for instance.

Dazzu

Step 1: Use the fixed werewolf form in BG1
Step 2: Take no damage from ANYTHING
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

mlnevese

@Dazzu

That hadn't even ocurred to me Instant immortality

Schneidend

The Berserker also GAINS 15 HP while raging, IIRC, so as long as you don't take more than 15 damage, you're fine.

Amardarial

Dazzu said:

Step 1: Use the fixed werewolf form in BG1
Step 2: Take no damage from ANYTHING
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!

Or you could go totem druid and have summons who are immune to non-magic weapons, have good AC and Thaco and special abilities...and I'm sure there are other lowbie kits that are not balanced for BG 1 at all...

Synergetic

Hax!!!

Tanthalas

*takes notes*

Keep 'em coming people.

Shin

I would agree that a bit of "what-to-expect" text could be useful as part of the class descriptions. Like how some classes are virtually powerless at the start and in need of a party to survive but can expect a pretty epic increase in power; and so on. Since D&D 2e was never designed for classes to be equally adept throughout their development curve, this may help players who are used to more modern games.

Having said that, I also think it's one of the charms that classes complement each other and stand out from each other rather than being laser-measured for balance and solo capabilities, so I wouldn't want to see any big changes aiming to make every combo viable from the start.

mlnevese

@Shin I agree with you. I had a lot of fun with my low level monk. Every time he did level up I had some reason to celebrate. I'm seriously considering a monk or kensai for my first run on EE.

But the fact is I've been playing some variant of D&D for 21 years. I would certainly explain to any new player on my table the problems he would face with his choosen class while the group is low level.

This game is about fun not about wanting to throw your computer through the nearest window because of problems you didn't expect for lack of experience with the rules.

The fact is people do not like to read manuals so a clear warning text would be welcome. A simple "Recommended for experienced players" could even be enough.

Tanthalas

Well, I think its a lot more likely that balancing changes will go in the direction of nerfing the BG2 kit abilities that are simply broken abilities in BG1.

Dazzu

On harder Difficulties, you really CANT berserk at level 1. Taking increased damage means you'll gain 15 hp, but lose 30 when it ends. You can literally NOT berzerk on hard mode until you have a few levels.

Amardarial

Tanthalas said:

Well, I think its a lot more likely that balancing changes will go in the direction of nerfing the BG2 kit abilities that are simply broken abilities in BG1.

None are really broken, skewed in power some sure, but not broken, as they usually even out by chapter 3-4, least that was my experience with the Totem Druid, haven't played the Werewolf one yet.

By ~ level 4-5 the summons from the Totem Druid usually just got killed via spells by what ever wizard, druid, or cleric was around, failing that magic arrows got them ...

Granted I do use mods to make the AI better and the game more difficult so...that could play into it as well.

When base creatures are smart and ignore what they can't hurt, smart target, etc well just helps balance a lot.

Be more inclined to see the weaker Kits brought up to par with the better ones to be honest...

Tanthalas

@Amardarial
The immunity to normal weapons of the Totemic Druid's summons means that most stuff can't even touch them in the earlier chapters of the game.

3 of the summons also get 3 attacks per round, and they all have THAC0's in the range of 5 (Lion) and 8 (the rest of them). If I'm not mistaken they also all have an AC around -4 (except the bear that has 2). I think the lowest HP is the Snake with something like 45, and highest is the bear with 96.

Sure, at endgame these guys aren't that overpowered anymore, but they can easily wipe the floor in the earlier chapters.

Amardarial

@Tanthalas Just speaking from my experience, just finished a play-through with one by time I was lvl 4-5, they were usually only useful for random encounters and trash mobs like kobolds, wolves, etc

Everything else usually just slaughtered them, think by level six, I stopped even really summoning them outside of boss fights, and then they were just cannon fodder to try and distract them from my characters.

Granted though as I said, my play through uses mods to increase AI and overall power of the creatures, so base BG 1 is probably a different story, Mages tend to get one or two shot without Mods as they never get a chance to raise anything more then maybe Mirror Image to protect themselves...making the summons much better as their main threat is auto dad at start of the encounter.

Schneidend

Dazzu said:

On harder Difficulties, you really CANT berserk at level 1. Taking increased damage means you'll gain 15 hp, but lose 30 when it ends. You can literally NOT berzerk on hard mode until you have a few levels.

I'm pretty sure the harder difficulties only increase damage dealt to you by monsters and spells. The damage dealt by the end of your Berserk state is not increase. If it is, that sound like a bug.

Dazzu

It is a bug, I won't deny it, but its a real one.

Shrimp

I think he may be right, and all damage received is doubled - even damage self inflicted, or inflicted by a party member, like an AoE spell. At least I remember seeing a screenshot with a backstab dealing over 1k damage, the trick being that, yes, he backstabbed one of his team members (in hardest difficulty) for double damage.

Now, does "fixed" damage like berserk get doubled, I don't really know, guess I'll try it later.

~edit: alright, just started a new game in "insane" difficulty, with a berserker. I dealt more than 35 damage per hit to Imoen (using just the normal axe on the table at the very start), and when Berserk ended, I took 30 damage. So I guess Dazzu is right.

Djimmy

I don't think this is a bug. It is possible to have more than 15 life if you drink some potion or something. Correct me if I am wrong.

mlnevese

@Djimmy You're correct. There are spells that give temporary hit points as well, Aid, for instance.

I don't think you have access to these potions in the beggining of the game though. And Aid spell requires a level 3 cleric to cast.

Doom972

This game isn't newbie friendly, and that's one of the thing I appreciate about this dying breed of games. As it was said, this game allows to create parties, and there's a reason you may have up to 5 followers.

Pencil

It's even worse when you play on insane and take 30 damage when it wears off.

limlite

Ever since playing BG and having a gibberling kill me within the first five minutes of the game, I judge a game's (RPG) difficulty by that same standard. How long did it take for me to get mauled by a puny adversary? If more than five minutes, it's made for kids or weak-willed nouveau-dungeon-crawlers.