Perhaps he is particularly ugly for one of his breed?
Nope. He's definitely particularly handsome for one of his kind. Makes me want to fawn over him, but when I remember that he's a blackguard I recoil in horror
(I know I know that's just how I view him )
LOL.
One person's beauty is another person's Ernest Borgnine.
If you choose to sleep with Dorn while romancing Viccy, she ends her romance immediately with a very firm "You disgust me." I have no idea how Dorn reacts if you choose her instead.
Surely there must have been more than that, given Viconia's usual eloquence
@abacus I take your point, but contend that in such cases, sequels are made only if the first film makes money. The original sells the sequel - the writer becomes secondary and replaceable. Baldur's Gate has had a sequel for well over a decade - Dorn is addition to an existing product. It'd be more akin to someone remaking, for example, The Godfather 1 & 2 and writing in a new character, which would never happen.
TV is a different beast. Nearly every show in existence has/had a rotating group of writers. A weekly production schedule is typically too demanding to put on the shoulders of the show's creators over the run of a series, which, if successful, can last for years.
Given all this, I'm not sure the analogies hold up. Sorry to get off topic.
See this confuses me. Look at Dorn. Hes not ugly. Hes like an extremely manly elf with tusks. Hes pretty much man pretty. Also pretty much with Recklessheart said. I honestly wonder if Overhaul had any experienced writers or if they were all just programers doubling up. I'm not saying this as an insult, if they did this it makes total sense. They are a small company after all, but it'd explain some of the writing.
He may not be ugly but what if he is like a horse from the waste down? Or > horse. Maybe thats what scares people?
I'm sure that if he is as hung as a horse like you imply he would be even more popular with MSM.
Guys, not to be a spoilsport, and I don't mean to backseat mod, but within the last week there's already been an admonishment (from @mlnevese I believe), for discussing genitalia on this, a PG-13 forum. Just a heads up.
Guys, not to be a spoilsport, and I don't mean to backseat mod, but within the last week there's already been an admonishment (from @mlnevese I believe), for discussing genitalia on this, a PG-13 forum. Just a heads up.
First and last warning. This is a PG 13 forum. Next post not respecting the rules will have this thread closed.
Err... There goes my idea of a thread for the discussion of angiospermic genitalia. They come in such varied shapes, sizes, smells and colors, and I'm sure most people find them pleasing to the eye, olfactory receptors and taste buds. But with this non-genitalia rule in effect, I guesss the discussion of flowers is off-limits.
Perhaps he is particularly ugly for one of his breed?
Nope. He's definitely particularly handsome for one of his kind. Makes me want to fawn over him, but when I remember that he's a blackguard I recoil in horror
(I know I know that's just how I view him )
His unwashed mats of hair don't really do him any favors, though. Blech. A hint: if going through with dreadlocks, don't use the neglect method, or you'll be in a word for a hurt. And stench. And lice. And rejected applications for work. And dirty pillows. I don't think Dorn particularly cares for his appearance, though. And I imagine his Body Odor would turn on a lot of guys out there, just ask any MSM out there, they'll either be or know someone who likes it.
If you choose to sleep with Dorn while romancing Viccy, she ends her romance immediately with a very firm "You disgust me." I have no idea how Dorn reacts if you choose her instead.
Surely there must have been more than that, given Viconia's usual eloquence
In all fairness I doubt he has much time to wash out in the great big world. When you think about it adventurers have hardly any time at all to devout to hygiene. You get 8 hours of rest and I bet they spend that mostly sleeping. They are also constantly walking around sewers and dungeons and lord knows the hygiene habits of the average goblin. Personally, the one thing I think as a must have for every adventurer is very thick boots.
Honestly, I really wonder where Branwen finds time to apply her make up every day.
2) As I said, criticisms of the game and the work of Beamdog are not against the forum rules, but I personally don't see the need to be a "blunt asswipe" for the sake of it. There is a difference between expressing an opinion, and being unnecessarily rude and dismissive of somebody's hard work and endeavour.
This amuses me, because in my eyes, I see my criticism as actually being fair, but I am willing to poke fun at myself, particularly my critical tendencies, to lighten the mood somewhat. If it's not too bold to say, I think that playfully calling myself a "blunt asswipe" actually made my post seem worse in your eyes than it actually is. Most people seem to take little issue with my bluntness, now all of a sudden when I make fun of myself for it, it's a big deal? I'm confused. I tried to make things more playful and somehow that made it worse..?
In all fairness I doubt he has much time to wash out in the great big world. When you think about it adventurers have hardly any time at all to devout to hygiene. You get 8 hours of rest and I bet they spend that mostly sleeping. They are also constantly walking around sewers and dungeons and lord knows the hygiene habits of the average goblin. Personally, the one thing I think as a must have for every adventurer is very thick boots.
Honestly, I really wonder where Branwen finds time to apply her make up every day.
"A lady always has some secrets", as my mother always says. When all else fails, though, you can always use magic as an excuse. Seriously, you have spells to bring people back from the dead, regenerate limbs, and even block pregnancy - there MUST be at least a simple cantrip to keep you squeaky clean, right? And judging by Viconia's hair in BG2, there's no way she doesn't apply hair conditioner everyday. I also have the source (unphotoshopped) image they used for Viconia somewhere in my computer. Unfortunately, it's definitely not safe for work, due to the model's exposed funbags. I also wonder... Do they wear bras in Faerûn? Or any underwear for that matter? Or do they go commando, like true scotsmen?
This amuses me, because in my eyes, I see my criticism as actually being fair, but I am willing to poke fun at myself, particularly my critical tendencies, to lighten the mood somewhat. If it's not too bold to say, I think that playfully calling myself a "blunt asswipe" actually made my post seem worse in your eyes than it actually is. Most people seem to take little issue with my bluntness, now all of a sudden when I make fun of myself for it, it's a big deal? I'm confused. I tried to make things more playful and somehow that made it worse..?
I don't mean to antagonize, but I agree with and share this sentiment. In my experience, people terming themselves anything along the lines of "blunt asswipe", are not taking themselves very seriously, which I personally respect. It's not easy to do, honestly. Far too many people do take themselves whysoseriously, and the problem is exponentially exacerbated online. The world needs contrarians, and we are well served by them, ruffled feathers notwithstanding. Baldur's Gate is arguably the greatest CRPG saga in the history of the genre. To hold the people in charge of its enhancement to a high standard is no crime. Admittedly, I've only been lurking since late 2012, didn't register for another year, but I have never seen @Quartz descend into vulgarity, malice, or personal attacks. Edit: All that blathering and I misspelled the word for. Typical jackjack.
@Heindrich I'm surprised that you had Viconia in your party, I mean... You've killed a Flaming Fist Enforcer! Or it was BG2? Anyway you have to commit a not so good act in both games, unless you were playing Chaotic Good, so saving her was good intentioned... No matter what I'm surprised.
Well, in both cases you kill people trying to murder a woman who hasn't actually committed any crimes other than having coal-black skin.
Also, the priest running the stake-burning is one of Beshaba, a Chaotic Evil deity, so he's not in any way squeaky-clean himself.
@CrevsDaak I saved her in my first ever playthrough cos: 1) I wanted to see all the NPCs (I did miss quite a few, like Alora, Skie and Tiax) and have them in my party for a little bit so I could check them out.
Mod hat remains firmly off... I grew up in Britain, I totally appreciate self-depreciating humour. :P And perhaps I should have made it clearer that my (personal) issue is not with "blunt asswipe" per say. It was more aimed at the following line:
"This, except get rid of the "not to belittle the work of Overhaul" part."
Which seems unnecessarily disrespectful to all those who worked hard at these games, some of whom you know are active on this forum. I am merely expressing my support for them and a wish that critics would express themselves in a more constructive manner. But hey, their official policy for the forum is that they are very lenient about flak directed at themselves, but strict on abuse aimed at other users, so I am merely expressing my personal opinion, much like you are expressing yours.
I should point out that my comments are also not directly specifically at comments in this thread, which is generally good-natured, and I never intended to participate until summoned. But I guess to provide a little example of what I mean about forum etiquette...
I personally dislike the fact that fully half of the new EE NPCs are evil. I also dislike the fact that all the EE content is associated with those new NPCs.
I could express those opinions (I just did), and if others do so as well, Overhaul might in the future take note and offer redeeming pathways for new evil characters, and/or add content that's accessible without specific characters. That would be 'constructive criticism'.
What I could also do is express my dissatisfaction with those two points by saying "BG:EE sucks! I'll never use Dorn or Hexxat, I don't know why they bothered with those stupid evil characters! I want to go to Shou Lung, but f' that, I'm not having Hexxat in my party!". Which expresses the same point, but in a way that's less pleasant, which is, in my opinion, unnecessary.
Since this is already a wall of text, I shall build it taller with a copy-paste from a related topic.
Chaotic_Good said: There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.-Socrates. Rude is really a matter of perspective some people believe it is insulting to be corrected when it should be thought of as a kindness to free one from ignorance.
Me:
I disagree with this statement. I shall respond with in two ways to illustrate my point. (So I hope you will not actually take offence from the second response).
1) Civilised/Nice
Whilst I agree with with Socrates' love of knowledge and learning, I disagree with not only his statement, if understood literally, and also your assertion based on Socrates' statement.
There are clearly other forms of evil in the world beyond ignorance. I can be hateful and carry out despicable acts of evil with full knowledge that I am committing evil.
Even if you are correct about something, you can educate somebody in a reasoned and civilised manner, or you can be unnecessarily rude, hurtful and cruel.
2) Rude/Douche/Troll
Wow you sure sound like a right asshole! "What I say is always correct and I am doing you a kindness in delivering much needed enlightenment to your dull simian mind! I quote Socrates, I am so smart! Disgreeing with me is ignorance, the only true evil in the world!"
In all fairness I doubt he has much time to wash out in the great big world. When you think about it adventurers have hardly any time at all to devout to hygiene. You get 8 hours of rest and I bet they spend that mostly sleeping. They are also constantly walking around sewers and dungeons and lord knows the hygiene habits of the average goblin. Personally, the one thing I think as a must have for every adventurer is very thick boots.
Honestly, I really wonder where Branwen finds time to apply her make up every day.
This is one of the reasons I find romances rather... unappealing. The party lives an eternal camping trip in a medieval world. I've been on the road for extended periods of time in the modern world; from hotel to hotel, where they have at least normal bathrooms. It's still not pretty to be - for day or weeks - in a car full of people with minimal (modern world standards) hygiene, and that doesn't even include frequent camping in the wilderness. I have rarely seen romance blossom in these days, under these circumstances. Crush or not, only few people are that inclinded to get closer to someone who hasn't properly showered in days.
Somewhat more on topic, neither the side saying "Dorn is handsome" is right, nor is the side saying "Dorn/Half-orcs are ugly". Half-orcs vary in appearance a lot; some can pass as tall, bulky humans, others look clearly orcish. That Viconia finds one particular half-orc unattractive doesn't mean a thing except that she's not interested in Dorn. No-one finds "all humans" attractive. On the flipside, I would find it pretty weird if there was someone who found "all half-orcs" attractive. Tastes differ and rarely depend solely on the species (or in real life, race), just like appearance within a species (or race) differs. Not all Asians look the same. Someone who generally likes Asians will not find all of them equally attractive and might also be attracted to someone who isn't Asian. So, it's not weird at all that Viconia doesn't fancy Dorn, but will romance half-orcs. It's perfectly normal.
This is one of the reasons I find romances rather... unappealing. The party lives an eternal camping trip in a medieval world. I've been on the road for extended periods of time in the modern world; from hotel to hotel, where they have at least normal bathrooms. It's still not pretty to be - for day or weeks - in a car full of people with minimal (modern world standards) hygiene, and that doesn't even include frequent camping in the wilderness. I have rarely seen romance blossom in these days, under these circumstances. Crush or not, only few people are that inclinded to get closer to someone who hasn't properly showered in days.
Somewhat more on topic, neither the side saying "Dorn is handsome" is right, nor is the side saying "Dorn/Half-orcs are ugly". Half-orcs vary in appearance a lot; some can pass as tall, bulky humans, others look clearly orcish. That Viconia finds one particular half-orc unattractive doesn't mean a thing except that she's not interested in Dorn. No-one finds "all humans" attractive. On the flipside, I would find it pretty weird if there was someone who found "all half-orcs" attractive. Tastes differ and rarely depend solely on the species (or in real life, race), just like appearance within a species (or race) differs. Not all Asians look the same. Someone who generally likes Asians will not find all of them equally attractive and might also be attracted to someone who isn't Asian. So, it's not weird at all that Viconia doesn't fancy Dorn, but will romance half-orcs. It's perfectly normal.
Dirty or not, running around killing monsters is stressful, and even stinky curves are still alluring. If a flirtatious drow or slutty pirate gal slithers into my bedroll, I doubt I'll care if they're smelling a bit ripe.
Mod hat remains firmly off... I grew up in Britain, I totally appreciate self-depreciating humour. :P And perhaps I should have made it clearer that my (personal) issue is not with "blunt asswipe" per say. It was more aimed at the following line:
"This, except get rid of the "not to belittle the work of Overhaul" part."
Which seems unnecessarily disrespectful to all those who worked hard at these games, some of whom you know are active on this forum. I am merely expressing my support for them and a wish that critics would express themselves in a more constructive manner. But hey, their official policy for the forum is that they are very lenient about flak directed at themselves, but strict on abuse aimed at other users, so I am merely expressing my personal opinion, much like you are expressing yours.
I should point out that my comments are also not directly specifically at comments in this thread, which is generally good-natured, and I never intended to participate until summoned. But I guess to provide a little example of what I mean about forum etiquette...
I personally dislike the fact that fully half of the new EE NPCs are evil. I also dislike the fact that all the EE content is associated with those new NPCs.
I could express those opinions (I just did), and if others do so as well, Overhaul might in the future take note and offer redeeming pathways for new evil characters, and/or add content that's accessible without specific characters. That would be 'constructive criticism'.
What I could also do is express my dissatisfaction with those two points by saying "BG:EE sucks! I'll never use Dorn or Hexxat, I don't know why they bothered with those stupid evil characters! I want to go to Shou Lung, but f' that, I'm not having Hexxat in my party!". Which expresses the same point, but in a way that's less pleasant, which is, in my opinion, unnecessary.
Since this is already a wall of text, I shall build it taller with a copy-paste from a related topic.
I didn't really want to re-iterate myself because I've been over this many times. Buuuuut I have just now been somewhat guilted into elaborating my stance. At the risk of totally taking this shindig off-topic,
I appreciate what Overhaul has done, but I'd personally like to tell the writer(s) that they are bad, and whoever made the decision that new content is only given in relation to the new NPCs should probably be punched. And I realize the latter person/people probably aren't in part of Overhaul, I would imagine that decision was made by all the people who own the rights to Baldur's Gate who were scared Overhaul was gonna screw up.
And you are looking for more constructive than bad, yes? So I'll elaborate: - Here's the biggest one: I feel no attachment to the new NPCs at all. The writer(s) thought they could just make the NPCs seem "FREAKIN' COOL!" and that will make them compelling. Hint: That's not how it works. I don't find Jaheira to be MVP, but I always have a really hard time booting her out of my party, because of how the game builds up her personality and her relationship to CHARNAME, and I feel for the situation she's in (looking to end Irenicus because he killed her husband). Here's what we are obviously expected to think: OOH NEW NPCS! Wow Dorn is badass. I want him in my party! Wow Rasaad is some kind of badass monk who lays down the law and thinks for himself and stuff! I want him in my party! Wow Neera is awkward-cute, kind of incompetent so I need to help her. I want her in my party! Wow plot-twist! I want Hexxat in my party because umm ... she has a portrait! Yeah!! They start to become more relatable and interesting if you actually take them into your party but otherwise, there is a LOT LOT LOT of unclear motivation. I've heard people say "it's fantasy, it doesn't need clear motivation" and to be blunt, I think said people are a bit nuts. Even Planescape, with its bizzare setting has clear motivation. I can't suspend my disbelief and most of all be convinced that I CARE if the motivation is so disturbingly unclear, or even somewhat suicidal in the case of Hexxat. I'll use a few examples of how the original NPCs do better. They both give you motivation to pick them up, while introducing you to their character: "Jaheira is trapped here with me and missing her husband. Damn, that's pretty rough." "Minsc is trapped here with me and he watched his witch be beheaded. Damn, that's pretty rough." "Mazzy is trapped here in this dreary dungeon, all her companions were killed, and she expects to die too. And yet she has not lost all hope. Wow, she is brave and doing her best in a hopeless scenario." "Cernd is persecuted by an entire city of people for something he didn't do, in fact he was looking to stop it. And yet he is still level-headed and even appreciative of the governor for saving him. Very level-headed and we'd better get to the bottom of this issue." I rather liked Dorn's BG:EE introduction. It was well done. Alright this guy is a pretty strong, badass warrior who seems pretty evil, he's exacting just vengeance, and he wants to travel with you because he's wise enough to know that he could frankly use the help. Really, Dorn's BG:EE quest and storyline made a lot of sense. I'll also say I really liked Baeloth in BG:EE. He was not very deep, but very quirky, which is certainly a lot like other BG1 NPCs.
Finally moving on ...
- Their new NPCs feel untouchable. Like, elevated above the rest. Elevated above everything. This is obnoxious. Hell, I find it a bit obnoxious how much CHARNAME is elevated above everything. I don't totally mind though because by the plot it makes sense, and then there's Icewind Dale if you want to get your fix of normal adventurers becoming heroic warriors. - The dialog options are often pretty limiting. This plays into the above, of course. As has been established in another thread, you can't even question Dorn in an inquisitive, good or even neutral alignment manner, unless you've got Anomen or Keldorn in your party. Amazing.
-----
So finally, why did I say "This, except get rid of the "not to belittle the work of Overhaul" part." ?
It was aimed at the writers. I feel like the content that was written for the new NPCs actually *detracts* from the original game. So yes, I belittle their work. The rest of Overhaul? Job well done guys, thank you very much for your hard work.
I appreciate what Overhaul has done, but I'd personally like to tell the writer(s) that they are bad, and whoever made the decision that new content is only given in relation to the new NPCs should probably be punched.
Baldur's Gate is a videogame. Please grow up and gain a sense of perspective on what is and is not important.
I appreciate what Overhaul has done, but I'd personally like to tell the writer(s) that they are bad, and whoever made the decision that new content is only given in relation to the new NPCs should probably be punched.
Baldur's Gate is a videogame. Please grow up and gain a sense of perspective on what is and is not important.
Excellent contribution to the discussion, (which has gone wildly off topic) @Quartz was clearly making use of hyperbole - no actual punching is going to take place. This is a forum for Baldur's Gate; videogame though it may be, the fact is that it is one of select few titles that have helped to elevate games as an art medium. I certainly think it's got at least 75% of movies beat in terms of story and character development.
I'd personally like to tell the writer(s) that they are bad
Mission accomplished.
Now seriously, how the hell did the thread reach this point? This wasn't what I had foreseen, I expected a post from @Viconia_DeVir and some discussion on her romance, but never something so grand as a writer posting in the thread, especially not in these unfavorable circumstances. @AndrewFoley - I personally don't consider the writing bad, in fact, some of the storylines are much better than the ones written by Bioware. I, in behalf of all of the transient present here, would like to apologize for any hurtful comments made by my fellows - they were definitely uncalled for, and it was never my intention to see the thread devolve into... this. @Heindrich - I think it is definitely time to bury this discussion, it has degenerated past the point of no return, as I said, the thread has deteriorated into a garbled-up madness comprising subjects such as genital size, personal offenses towards the staff and even threats of physical harm! Truly this is not acceptable.
I, in behalf of all of the transient present here, would like to apologize for any hurtful comments made by my fellows - they were definitely uncalled for, and it was never my intention to see the thread devolve into... this.
Whether or not you're in the right, it's obvious from posts within this very thread that you don't speak for everyone. I respect you apologizing to Andrew, but that doesn't change the way other people feel about his work. It's not a personal attack on him - nobody is saying he's a bad person. My opinion is that Dorn is in fact rather well written, but a bit clichéd - I saw him coming to a bad end from the very start. Honestly, my only real issue with him is that he's not Chaotic Evil. In this, I clash with some people, but that doesn't mean those people loathe the writer himself. Criticism of someone's work does not equal personal attack, and it's inflammatory to suggest as much.
I think it is definitely time to bury this discussion
Agreed. Collectively, we have gotten completely off topic - and the bottom line is, if you, as the OP, want this discussion closed, that is your prerogative. Perhaps it is for the best. I personally don't see this going anywhere productive.
Comments
One person's beauty is another person's Ernest Borgnine.
I take your point, but contend that in such cases, sequels are made only if the first film makes money. The original sells the sequel - the writer becomes secondary and replaceable.
Baldur's Gate has had a sequel for well over a decade - Dorn is addition to an existing product. It'd be more akin to someone remaking, for example, The Godfather 1 & 2 and writing in a new character, which would never happen.
TV is a different beast. Nearly every show in existence has/had a rotating group of writers. A weekly production schedule is typically too demanding to put on the shoulders of the show's creators over the run of a series, which, if successful, can last for years.
Given all this, I'm not sure the analogies hold up.
Sorry to get off topic.
Honestly, I really wonder where Branwen finds time to apply her make up every day.
When all else fails, though, you can always use magic as an excuse. Seriously, you have spells to bring people back from the dead, regenerate limbs, and even block pregnancy - there MUST be at least a simple cantrip to keep you squeaky clean, right?
And judging by Viconia's hair in BG2, there's no way she doesn't apply hair conditioner everyday.
I also have the source (unphotoshopped) image they used for Viconia somewhere in my computer. Unfortunately, it's definitely not safe for work, due to the model's exposed funbags.
I also wonder... Do they wear bras in Faerûn? Or any underwear for that matter? Or do they go commando, like true scotsmen?
Baldur's Gate is arguably the greatest CRPG saga in the history of the genre. To hold the people in charge of its enhancement to a high standard is no crime.
Admittedly, I've only been lurking since late 2012, didn't register for another year, but I have never seen @Quartz descend into vulgarity, malice, or personal attacks.
Edit: All that blathering and I misspelled the word for. Typical jackjack.
Also, the priest running the stake-burning is one of Beshaba, a Chaotic Evil deity, so he's not in any way squeaky-clean himself.
I saved her in my first ever playthrough cos:
1) I wanted to see all the NPCs (I did miss quite a few, like Alora, Skie and Tiax) and have them in my party for a little bit so I could check them out.
2) I didn't know at that stage that the Flaming Fists were the 'good guys'. May I refer you to the following thread from my noobie days.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19486/how-important-is-reputation
But anyway I mostly just know about Viconia through LPs that I've watched.
@Quartz
Mod hat remains firmly off... I grew up in Britain, I totally appreciate self-depreciating humour. :P And perhaps I should have made it clearer that my (personal) issue is not with "blunt asswipe" per say. It was more aimed at the following line:
"This, except get rid of the "not to belittle the work of Overhaul" part."
Which seems unnecessarily disrespectful to all those who worked hard at these games, some of whom you know are active on this forum. I am merely expressing my support for them and a wish that critics would express themselves in a more constructive manner. But hey, their official policy for the forum is that they are very lenient about flak directed at themselves, but strict on abuse aimed at other users, so I am merely expressing my personal opinion, much like you are expressing yours.
I should point out that my comments are also not directly specifically at comments in this thread, which is generally good-natured, and I never intended to participate until summoned. But I guess to provide a little example of what I mean about forum etiquette...
I personally dislike the fact that fully half of the new EE NPCs are evil. I also dislike the fact that all the EE content is associated with those new NPCs.
I could express those opinions (I just did), and if others do so as well, Overhaul might in the future take note and offer redeeming pathways for new evil characters, and/or add content that's accessible without specific characters. That would be 'constructive criticism'.
What I could also do is express my dissatisfaction with those two points by saying "BG:EE sucks! I'll never use Dorn or Hexxat, I don't know why they bothered with those stupid evil characters! I want to go to Shou Lung, but f' that, I'm not having Hexxat in my party!". Which expresses the same point, but in a way that's less pleasant, which is, in my opinion, unnecessary.
Since this is already a wall of text, I shall build it taller with a copy-paste from a related topic.
Chaotic_Good said:
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.-Socrates. Rude is really a matter of perspective some people believe it is insulting to be corrected when it should be thought of as a kindness to free one from ignorance.
Me:
I disagree with this statement. I shall respond with in two ways to illustrate my point. (So I hope you will not actually take offence from the second response).
1) Civilised/Nice
Whilst I agree with with Socrates' love of knowledge and learning, I disagree with not only his statement, if understood literally, and also your assertion based on Socrates' statement.
There are clearly other forms of evil in the world beyond ignorance. I can be hateful and carry out despicable acts of evil with full knowledge that I am committing evil.
Even if you are correct about something, you can educate somebody in a reasoned and civilised manner, or you can be unnecessarily rude, hurtful and cruel.
2) Rude/Douche/Troll
Wow you sure sound like a right asshole! "What I say is always correct and I am doing you a kindness in delivering much needed enlightenment to your dull simian mind! I quote Socrates, I am so smart! Disgreeing with me is ignorance, the only true evil in the world!"
That's pretty much it.
Somewhat more on topic, neither the side saying "Dorn is handsome" is right, nor is the side saying "Dorn/Half-orcs are ugly". Half-orcs vary in appearance a lot; some can pass as tall, bulky humans, others look clearly orcish. That Viconia finds one particular half-orc unattractive doesn't mean a thing except that she's not interested in Dorn. No-one finds "all humans" attractive. On the flipside, I would find it pretty weird if there was someone who found "all half-orcs" attractive. Tastes differ and rarely depend solely on the species (or in real life, race), just like appearance within a species (or race) differs. Not all Asians look the same. Someone who generally likes Asians will not find all of them equally attractive and might also be attracted to someone who isn't Asian. So, it's not weird at all that Viconia doesn't fancy Dorn, but will romance half-orcs. It's perfectly normal.
I appreciate what Overhaul has done, but I'd personally like to tell the writer(s) that they are bad, and whoever made the decision that new content is only given in relation to the new NPCs should probably be punched. And I realize the latter person/people probably aren't in part of Overhaul, I would imagine that decision was made by all the people who own the rights to Baldur's Gate who were scared Overhaul was gonna screw up.
And you are looking for more constructive than bad, yes? So I'll elaborate:
- Here's the biggest one: I feel no attachment to the new NPCs at all. The writer(s) thought they could just make the NPCs seem "FREAKIN' COOL!" and that will make them compelling. Hint: That's not how it works. I don't find Jaheira to be MVP, but I always have a really hard time booting her out of my party, because of how the game builds up her personality and her relationship to CHARNAME, and I feel for the situation she's in (looking to end Irenicus because he killed her husband).
Here's what we are obviously expected to think:
OOH NEW NPCS!
Wow Dorn is badass. I want him in my party!
Wow Rasaad is some kind of badass monk who lays down the law and thinks for himself and stuff! I want him in my party!
Wow Neera is awkward-cute, kind of incompetent so I need to help her. I want her in my party!
Wow plot-twist! I want Hexxat in my party because umm ... she has a portrait! Yeah!!
They start to become more relatable and interesting if you actually take them into your party but otherwise, there is a LOT LOT LOT of unclear motivation. I've heard people say "it's fantasy, it doesn't need clear motivation" and to be blunt, I think said people are a bit nuts. Even Planescape, with its bizzare setting has clear motivation. I can't suspend my disbelief and most of all be convinced that I CARE if the motivation is so disturbingly unclear, or even somewhat suicidal in the case of Hexxat.
I'll use a few examples of how the original NPCs do better. They both give you motivation to pick them up, while introducing you to their character:
"Jaheira is trapped here with me and missing her husband. Damn, that's pretty rough."
"Minsc is trapped here with me and he watched his witch be beheaded. Damn, that's pretty rough."
"Mazzy is trapped here in this dreary dungeon, all her companions were killed, and she expects to die too. And yet she has not lost all hope. Wow, she is brave and doing her best in a hopeless scenario."
"Cernd is persecuted by an entire city of people for something he didn't do, in fact he was looking to stop it. And yet he is still level-headed and even appreciative of the governor for saving him. Very level-headed and we'd better get to the bottom of this issue."
I rather liked Dorn's BG:EE introduction. It was well done. Alright this guy is a pretty strong, badass warrior who seems pretty evil, he's exacting just vengeance, and he wants to travel with you because he's wise enough to know that he could frankly use the help. Really, Dorn's BG:EE quest and storyline made a lot of sense.
I'll also say I really liked Baeloth in BG:EE. He was not very deep, but very quirky, which is certainly a lot like other BG1 NPCs.
Finally moving on ...
- Their new NPCs feel untouchable. Like, elevated above the rest. Elevated above everything. This is obnoxious. Hell, I find it a bit obnoxious how much CHARNAME is elevated above everything. I don't totally mind though because by the plot it makes sense, and then there's Icewind Dale if you want to get your fix of normal adventurers becoming heroic warriors.
- The dialog options are often pretty limiting. This plays into the above, of course. As has been established in another thread, you can't even question Dorn in an inquisitive, good or even neutral alignment manner, unless you've got Anomen or Keldorn in your party. Amazing.
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So finally, why did I say "This, except get rid of the "not to belittle the work of Overhaul" part." ?
It was aimed at the writers. I feel like the content that was written for the new NPCs actually *detracts* from the original game. So yes, I belittle their work. The rest of Overhaul? Job well done guys, thank you very much for your hard work.
@Quartz was clearly making use of hyperbole - no actual punching is going to take place. This is a forum for Baldur's Gate; videogame though it may be, the fact is that it is one of select few titles that have helped to elevate games as an art medium. I certainly think it's got at least 75% of movies beat in terms of story and character development.
Now seriously, how the hell did the thread reach this point? This wasn't what I had foreseen, I expected a post from @Viconia_DeVir and some discussion on her romance, but never something so grand as a writer posting in the thread, especially not in these unfavorable circumstances.
@AndrewFoley - I personally don't consider the writing bad, in fact, some of the storylines are much better than the ones written by Bioware. I, in behalf of all of the transient present here, would like to apologize for any hurtful comments made by my fellows - they were definitely uncalled for, and it was never my intention to see the thread devolve into... this.
@Heindrich - I think it is definitely time to bury this discussion, it has degenerated past the point of no return, as I said, the thread has deteriorated into a garbled-up madness comprising subjects such as genital size, personal offenses towards the staff and even threats of physical harm! Truly this is not acceptable.
My opinion is that Dorn is in fact rather well written, but a bit clichéd - I saw him coming to a bad end from the very start. Honestly, my only real issue with him is that he's not Chaotic Evil. In this, I clash with some people, but that doesn't mean those people loathe the writer himself. Criticism of someone's work does not equal personal attack, and it's inflammatory to suggest as much. You were one of two people principally responsible for this. The other person has since removed their posts. You can't honestly tell me you believe that. It was clearly hyperbolic. Agreed. Collectively, we have gotten completely off topic - and the bottom line is, if you, as the OP, want this discussion closed, that is your prerogative. Perhaps it is for the best. I personally don't see this going anywhere productive.