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The making of a good mod NPC

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  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    Its a sad sad thing that there are so many great ideas and so few people who can code. Sadly, learning to code has been on my to do list since I was in high school, though perhaps its a good thing I did not learn it back then. I look at my character ideas from long ago and wonder why I made a demon blooded drow raised on the surface by two escaped drow who's brother was the equivalent of a wild mage sorcerer. I have since found some joy in more subtle and less flamboyant ideas.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    haha, @necromancer I definitely also prefer your more recent ideas! ;p
    @kidcarnival and @rhaella I think that there can be an ending that involves starting a stable-ish family. People with lots of power and responsibility often *do* have families. I agree that it would have to be done well to make sense. One thing I could think of is that charname becomes the protector of Candlekeep, ensuring that the accumulated knowledge and lore does not fall into the wrong hands or is abused. It provides:
    a) the chance at a stable life in a relatively secure home
    b) for charname using his power and influence in a way that is significant but also does not involve travel or constant battle
    c) a place where he has good support in case someone else wants to take advantage of him or threaten his family

    for good charnames (quartz and kid will hate me for this!) Imoen could be there supporting him/her and adding security for their life. Similarly his/her spouse/lover would also provide protection while having a local hobby/occupation (Aerie can help people out and learn in the library, Jaheira can protect the local wildlife, Anomen can preach Helm shit, Viconia can boss around all the rivvil from her position of authority, etc).

    Also Uncle Firebead Elvenhair can teach the kids to read and fetch him books :)
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    My very first NPC idea was... actually, quite moderate. It was a (vanilla) Fighter/(dualed to) Priest of Lathander, which is the only illegal part. The backstory was about his mother being kidnapped by a raiding orc tribe while his father was on some military campaign. An orc liked the mother and let her live as his mate, to which she agreed for the sake of her unborn child. The orc eventually didn't like having a son who was strong and tall, but not an orc. He did like the idea of a son enough though, and hence tried to make him more orcish - including the not that genius idea to misfigure his face for a more orcish appearance. As a teenager, the boy obviously took the first chance to run away (had a death of the mother due to illness in there, so he had no reason to stay) and was taken in and raised by monks in a remote monastry of Lathander. When he was old enough to live on his own, he left the monks and became a travelling preacher to help others in his situation. He was somehow found during the slaver quest, but I can't remember if he was a pit fighter or somewhere in the sewers, trying to destroy the slaver ring on his own. Also some small quest about trying to find his real father, which would also be the topic in some banters about Gorion.

    The stats were probably medicore for the dual class. Something like:

    STR 17 - trained by his orcish step father to be strong from young age on
    DEX 13 - not exactly a focus of orcs
    CON 15 - definitely got tougher than average humans, but also endured hardships as a teenage runaway
    INT 11 - neither smart nor stupid; slightly above average due to training in monastry
    WIS 16 - due to training as cleric (alright, there's the second illegal thing, he'd need 17 to dual)
    CHA 6 - and that's generous; his face is so hideous, he wears a mask or hood or something to cover the scars and the "sicilian smile"

    Judging by my first actual charname - my preaching hobo Priest of Talos - I seem to have a thing for hideously ugly clerics. :D
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @Nonnahswriter I like that idea a lot.

    I suppose my advice would be for you to find someone who is willing, and furthermore enthusiastic to help you. Not impossible, you've already made something of a name for yourself on these forums. It's just like networking to get a job xD
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Quartz said:

    I suppose my advice would be for you to find someone who is willing, and furthermore enthusiastic to help you.

    I could say "Learning is always an option" but I'll better give different advice (and offer help maybe... But I'm too busy), if you feel like something can't be done ask someone with modding knowledge, I know that it has many limits, but also many places that you can create amazing things, basically in that point it's pretty much like LEGO, you don't have many limits, but the only limits are very restrictive. The first limit is you imagination, the second one is the engine, obviously you knowledge will tell you that many things cannot be done, but I would have never guessed that you can have up to 100 (and more, but then they may work together or just crash) different responses to one trigger (so I can choose 100 different places for my NPC to spawn, all different! I can also make him shape-shift into 100 different monsters, and that will create a totally random shapeshifting sequence, the only limitation here is the time to code this, as it would take 6 hours or more (maybe less for the spawn script) to code that, because it will need shapeshifting spells or more complex coding) if I didn't start to learn modding. Learning WeiDU to install it is basically reading the manual it comes with several times and trying it out in your game.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    @Quartz for your question on BG1, its tough. I personally like to play with BG1 NPC Project installed (I actually don't like playing without it) so for me I'd like to have lots of dialogue if you make it. Yet without it installed its a bit trickier. I think the best would be to make one banter with each NPC and maybe three talks with charname. Then in BG2 you have more leeway (maybe 2-3 with each NPC and multiple with Charname, with some more in ToB).

    So umm. I'm having a hard time going forward here.

    I've never played with the BG1 NPC Project installed. It requires TuTu and I'm a vanilla elitist player. So I don't know how the existing characters were additionally characterized, and as such it is pretty much impossible to make interactions between my NPC and the existing ones without either
    a.) trampling all over peoples' perception of the original characters
    b.) trampling all over a respected mod, that many people would likely play in conjunction with mine so that's a bad idea

    Is there anyway I could just access a lot of the text from the NPC mod, or some such? Probably not, but I may as well at least ask.
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 202
    edited February 2014
    This is a neat thread.

    My 2 cents: An npc mod needs to integrate into the experience to a point where if examined in relation to the other Bioware npcs by someone who had never played the game they don't stand out as "different" or modded. They need to be unique and flavorful, and I would highly recommend they have some kind of *quirk* that makes them easily stand out immediately and easily. But at the same time they shouldn't be so special they're overshadowing anyone and -especially- the PC. This is all kind of obvious stuff. I think that it's better to create race/class combinations that aren't represented in the game. One thing you notice about BG2 is that there isn't a whole lot of overlap in the classes of the existing NPCs and even in what overlaps there are, usually the characters will play pretty different from one another (ex: Minsc and Valygar are both rangers, but they both are pretty different). The only exception I can think offhand being Nalia and Imoen.

    Characters should feel lively and talkative during quests and with both the pc and npcs but without having so much dialogue that they frequently stop the game for long periods of time. Pacing is important, and you want to space out that dialogue. It's a delicate line. Also potential modders should make sure that they have the "voice" of existing characters down properly so they can write banters that don't seem completely out of character for the existing npc being bantered with. Ironically I think one of the hardest parts about developing a custom NPC is making sure your writing the base NPCs convincingly. One final aspect of banter that writers need to avoid is having their custom PC be "one upping" the existing cast all the time. Having them point out Nalia's naivete or Viconia's hypocrisy once in a while is fine, but don't overdo it and make your npc sound preachy or above the existing cast. Give them flaws and have existing npcs call -them- out on it. Or have them interact in ways that are interesting and don't always paint your character in the best light. A sense of humor can also take you a long way. Beware of the fourth wall though. An occasional nudge and wink at the player is certainly alright, but too much of that becomes really distracting and immersion breaking.

    So some specific things that I think some might disagree with me a bit but are pretty important to me. Not only does a character have to be thematically consistent with the game, but the writing style used should be as well. This means no emoting in dialogue, no huge blocks of text or dialogue, and limiting PC responses to 2-5 options in any dialogue. Some authors might see this as limiting and... it kind of is. But I think making a good NPC mod is not about showing off as an author but keeping things restrained and within the boundaries of the existing work. And while you want a certain amount of complexity to friendships or romances, you want to be very aware of how much time you're demanding of the player to read through these dialogues. I'd argue you want to keep things on the shorter succinct side. Baldur's Gate isn't a book and you shouldn't be having the player spend 5-10 minutes at a time going through a romance dialogue. IMO anyway.
  • laptopman666laptopman666 Member Posts: 283

    Man, if only I could have a romance that did not consist *entirely* of crying on eachother's shoulders, that would be great...

    yes a romance that wouldnt be like those stupid reality shows that pollute the tv nowadays. now THAT would be worth downloading.
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622

    Man, if only I could have a romance that did not consist *entirely* of crying on eachother's shoulders, that would be great...

    yes a romance that wouldnt be like those stupid reality shows that pollute the tv nowadays. now THAT would be worth downloading.
    This has actually caused me to re-think a romance option for a chaotic neutral bard character I wanted to make an NPC. Among other things she would do that do not involve crying on one's shoulder she would give the man at the candlekeep gate an angry talking too for not allowing you back in and later in her personal quest would retrieve a book to help you re-enter candlekeep...only to find out that they already have a copy. Perhaps a romance based on some emotions, some crying, but also looking out for each other, some playful affection and perhaps even eventually getting married.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @Necomancer I really like the "oh, THAT book? We already have that" part.
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622

    @Necomancer I really like the "oh, THAT book? We already have that" part.

    I was thinking of adding a bit where the gate keeper says said book was donated by Firebead Elvenhair just a few weeks back, to witch Keshia simply responds "I will hunt him down and burn off his eyebrows!" ...Shes not evil, really, she just has a bit of a temper.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2014

    @Necomancer I really like the "oh, THAT book? We already have that" part.

    I was thinking of adding a bit where the gate keeper says said book was donated by Firebead Elvenhair just a few weeks back, to witch Keshia simply responds "I will hunt him down and burn off his eyebrows!" ...Shes not evil, really, she just has a bit of a temper.
    hands off my favorite character! Firebead would destroy her (or seduce her)
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164


    some playful affection

    Honestly this is the number one thing I find lacking in most of the Bioware romances. The Neera and Rasaad romances have tried to add a little here and there, which is nice.
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    I think what we are essentially trying to say is "You know those guys who complain when a game gets too wordy and how it slows down gameplay? Screw those guys. Those guys are plebs."
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Hm, I don't like NPCs that spam walls of text and give me 12 highly specific answer options. 'Wordy' is relative. I sure like a good backstory and lore - best example, Durlag's - but don't load all the words on an NPC's back.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Hm, I don't like NPCs that spam walls of text and give me 12 highly specific answer options. 'Wordy' is relative. I sure like a good backstory and lore - best example, Durlag's - but don't load all the words on an NPC's back.

    Durlag's Tower ftw. Severed Hand is excellent as well.
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    Frkun said:

    Make the characters to evolve. Really. I think that part is missing in most NPCs. You come already with a cool character that kick the arses around. Special mention to Saerileth who starts already in middle of the relationship.

    Characters have to evolve, to learn, to start in a mess and end up learning something. And you, the one who watched all this process, then, emphatices with them.

    I want to like and agree this fifty-thousand times.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Thanks for everyone who has ideas on how NPC's (paticularly romancable NPC's) should be done. Not doing everything,but I read every post and am thinking about it seriously. :)

    If anyone has any wishes for conversations they wish a romancable mod would have with them in BG1, please say your piece!
  • powurzpowurz Member Posts: 28
    First of all, I very much like this thread and agree with much of what has been said.

    Another thing I like about NPCs is their ability to effectively balance a party. Hexxat really made BG2EE for me by giving me relief from either being a PC Thief or taking Jan as an evil Charname. Similarly, I think that something as simple as a well-made Cleric NPC could do well for the game. Not that I don't love Viconia and Anomen, but again, without being a PC Cleric it's hard to avoid taking one of them. Jaheira levels too slowly to be the sole divine magic user, and Cernd... poor, poor Cernd. Dorn similarly does this by giving a paladin to the evil parties, and Neera is a wonderful alternative to Imoen in terms of magical ability. Rasaad gives us a monk without rolling one ourselves (I don't know anyone who didn't roll a monk in BG2 to see how they were back in the day).
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    powurz said:

    First of all, I very much like this thread and agree with much of what has been said.

    Another thing I like about NPCs is their ability to effectively balance a party. Hexxat really made BG2EE for me by giving me relief from either being a PC Thief or taking Jan as an evil Charname. Similarly, I think that something as simple as a well-made Cleric NPC could do well for the game. Not that I don't love Viconia and Anomen, but again, without being a PC Cleric it's hard to avoid taking one of them. Jaheira levels too slowly to be the sole divine magic user, and Cernd... poor, poor Cernd. Dorn similarly does this by giving a paladin to the evil parties, and Neera is a wonderful alternative to Imoen in terms of magical ability. Rasaad gives us a monk without rolling one ourselves (I don't know anyone who didn't roll a monk in BG2 to see how they were back in the day).

    Earlier I talked about two characters I would have made if I had made the new NPCs for BG:EE and BG2:EE, I went by some simple rules. Try to include something thats not been in the game before and try to fill a gap. This game has a weird lack of evil thieves, despite it being a profession you'd think would attract them, and an oddly weird lack of good clerics, again, despite it being a profession you'd think would attract them.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Offering alternatives to NPCs that are overused by design (as Jan was due to being the only progressing thief before Hexxat came) or classes/multiclasses that are not there at all would be the number one priority for me. Make a list of not represented traits, then combine those that go together for an NPC:

    There is no female dwarf or gnome in either game.
    There is no female bard in either game.
    There is no male halfling in BG2.
    There is no female half-orc in either game.
    There is no good aligned bard in either game.
    There is no barbarian at all in either game.
    There is no sorcerer or dragon diciple except the evil easter egg.
    There is no female paladin in either game (Mazzy from her personality, but she's more popular as a ranged fighter.)
    There is no female ranger in either game.
    There is no half-elf bard in either game.
    There is no female monk in either game.
    There is no evil monk in either game.
    There is no good aligned pure divine caster in BG2.

    Then consider categories - classes that ultimately fill a similar party role: rangers and thieves as ranged fighters. Paladins, barbarians, fighters, rangers as frontliners. Bards, sorcerers and mages as arcane casters. Druids and clerics as healers. Which of the groups has the least selection for players? Which NPCs will end up in most parties for a lack of alternatives? Which popular party themes aren't possible (i.e. used to be all evil in BG2, now there's still Shorty Party that is, pardon the pun, short of NPCs)?

    After addressing 2 to 3 "lacks", you probably already have a solid base idea for an NPC that won't be too similar to anything in the game.
  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 178
    Speaking of NPC ideas, has anyone else ever been sorely tempted to toss a Dragonlance Wizard of High Sorcery in with those Knights of Solamnia in the Planar Sphere? I may just be special.

    (I don't know if I would ever do it because of damn Tsujatha already spawning in that Sphere, but *so* tempting.)
  • Glam_VrockGlam_Vrock Member Posts: 277
    Rhaella said:

    (I don't know if I would ever do it because of damn Tsujatha already spawning in that Sphere, but *so* tempting.)

    Crossmod content. The new NPC appears at Tsujatha's coordinates via Dimension Door. If Tsujatha is installed, he gets telefragged.

    You can get away with this because it'll only upset Tsujatha fans.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    @kidcarnival I agree so much with your last post (though Anomen kinda-sorta counts as a good 'pure' divine caster), but I just want to add one thing:
    A simple, plain, no-nonsense, neutral fighter-type in BG2. I'm still shocked that there is no neutral melee character at all.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    My list was incomplete; there is also no real female frontliner (like BG1 had Shar-Teel) in BG2, just Jaheira as multiclass. Only 3 shorties in total; one per race - doesn't make for much diversity. The obvious lack of half-orcs with only Dorn, and he's not versatile at all. It's even difficult to justify such an extreme character in a neutral party. Not even elves have a good representation. There are half-elves and then "exotic" subraces (and they are all female, too), but no plain old "regular" elf like Xan or Kivan.

    I excluded Anomen because he's neither "pure divine caster" nor strictly "good aligned". I meant something like a single class cleric who has the proficiencies you'd expect from a cleric and that can all be used. Anomen has a realistic distribution for his dual class and backstory, but it takes a while to give him the profs a regular cleric would have at the same level.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    aaahhh. I guess since he levels up in cleric only he kinda counted as "pure"

    I'd actually like more characters who are capable of being dual classed. I miss the days of Safana, Shar-Teel, Imoen and Xzar
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