Are traps too OP?
MacHurto
Member Posts: 731
Had never played with a thief before (only Jan Jansen and he does not get that many HLAs in a 6 man party).
Now wih Hexxat I have just spike trapped my way to godhood with Melissan. I understand a mage 30th being able to popcorn any boss before they can do something useful if well rested with a couple of alacrities and s time stop. But the traps just seem a bit too much. Am I being biased?
Now wih Hexxat I have just spike trapped my way to godhood with Melissan. I understand a mage 30th being able to popcorn any boss before they can do something useful if well rested with a couple of alacrities and s time stop. But the traps just seem a bit too much. Am I being biased?
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Also, they seem to overpass stoneskin or any protection anyway? Killed draconis after he turned into a dragon, buffed and followed charname to the Welcome Party at the end of the stairs.
But try playing Black Pits 2 with a fighter/mage using only time stop (even 3-4 times in a row) + improved haste.... It's veeeery veeeery OP.
I might be biased though, and just accept epic casting because I have used it often.
In other words, knowledge that you know the boss will spawn right there so you unload as many traps as you have.
Spike Traps are just that. Spikes. They should be subject to damage resistance and piercing resistance.
Spamming Skull traps/delayed fireballs is similar, I guess
A Fighter/Cleric or Paladin getting 85% physical resistance? OP
A Fighter/Mage or Kensage combining Timestop with Improved haste for 10 APR? OP
A Sorcerer or Wild Mage Casting Timestop + Improved Alacrity and then emptying their spellbook? OP
Traps are OP and the only major difference is that you need to use a bit of metagame knowledge to get as much out of them as everyone else's OP abilities.
And for metagaming, charname knows where the two most powerful bosses (allegedly) will appear so it isnt metagaming. :-)
Really bad are spike traps not being absorbed by Stoneskin, etc.
Basically, there is no "balance" for how BG does Traps.
I never use the ability. The game would be laughingly easy.
Btw - Rogues have sneaking, can pick locks, disarm traps, equip all items (whatever it is called) and can backstab. They bring more than enough to the table without also giving them Set Trap as it is done in BG.
NWN has the same problem with Trap stacking - just lay down oodles of Holy Traps and kill just about anything. At least in NWN there are components, etc, to the Trap equation (with the exception of Recover Trap). The AI is still horrible with Traps.
I have used traps very very VERY few times in the BG, IWD and NWN games. Like less than the fingers of one hand.
Because it requires metagaming and they're just cheesy. I prefer using tactics to beat the enemies, not stack traps.
At least with prebuffing I can rationalize as using Divination or scouting. "There are enemies ahead, we should prepare."
With traps it's like "I know the AI will spawn/walk there so I'm stack-trapping the hell out of it."
Let's compare the OP abilities:
85% Physical resistance - Can still be killed by magic.
Timestop - Some enemies are immune.
Multiple Spike Traps - Could roll 1s? To my knowledge no enemy in the game can survive these.
Ultimately the answer is you control how cheesy you want your game to be, but they are ridiculous overpowered.
But in each of the examples I gave there's another way to use the same character that is still OP. The same Paladin combining AoF, DoE and Hardiness can then switch to Carsomyr, Ring of Gaxx and Amulet of the Seldarine in combat for 70%+ Magic resistance. The Timestop & Improved Alacrity mage could equally go with Chain Contingency & 3 Horrid Wiltings.
Traps are a bit one dimensional in the way that they give thieves an advantage. Apart from UAI which has a few horrifically cheesy applications they are the only way to make a pure thief stand out in the endgame. Most classes have a smorgasboard of cheese rather than a thief's mild cheddar.
Who is opening all those chests, disarming all those Traps in your party without having to sleep everytime the spells are used up? Who is scouting ahead without using up resources?
Just because the class may not be adding to combat like your main tanks, or your main AoE controllers, doesn't mean they are not important, contributing members of your party! Rogues were never meant to be offensive powerhouses.
But if you add in Traps as implemented in BG2:EE, you don't NEED anyone else but Rogues! This is how OP and broken Traps are. Just trap, trap, trap your way to victory, game over, it was fun, k thanx. Why cast a spell, hoist a blade, or even don armor?
Heck, you don't even NEED equipment! Sneak, lay traps, traps, traps, kill.
Traps takes the need out of needing equipment to survive and prosper. Don't need a Cleric, cause one never gets injured. Don't need a Druid, cause the enemy is dead before Insect Plague. Don't need Fighters, cause there is nothing to fight. Don't need Mages, cause there is nothing to cast spells at!
I bet you could practically solo the whole game by just setting traps! Let me see, X will appear here (trap, trap, trap) and Y here (trap, trap, trap). Oh, and Z here (trap, trap, trap).
That should do it! Yoohooo, here I am! Come and get me, I am a hapless, delicious Rogue!
It just doesn't make any sense. Anything that makes other Classes useless in a party is broken and OP IMHO.
In PnP no high lvl NPC or even dragons would mindlessly follow lonely guy who just shot 1 arrow at them only to die at stack of traps. They would be able to detect them and than disarm/bypass them, or protect themselves with magic.
I personaly occasionaly use trapas if I know about the enemies in advance, use only limited ammout of traps. Also I lure only those enemise that are known to have low INT/WIS scores.
Sure you can solo the whole game using traps with no risk at all. But you can do the same (with less cheesy feeling i must say) with any arcane caster, especially sorceror or multiclass F/M.
So yes, you don't need anything but a thief. But you also don't need anything but a sorceror or a paladin, ....
I like traps. Yes, one can play them cheesily, but not necessarily so. A thief can scout a place, discern possibly dangerous enemies and place a couple of traps out of their sight. The party can then confront the possible enemies, and if hostilities occur the party can hit and run, seemingly trying to escape, but in fact luring the enemy to the thief's well-placed traps. This isn't unrealistic and requires strategic insight just as spellcasting.
Besides spellcasting can be done with cheese as well... "Hey, this area is full of basilisks.. What a coincidence, I just memorized 4 Protection from Petrification spells when we rested." or "Wow, Firkraag is actually a dragon. Never saw that one coming... Thank Mystra I memorized 3 Lower Resistances I normally never use."
I think it's easier to make an argument for arcane magic to be OP at higher levels or for divine magic to be UP, if you compare both classes of magic.
For BG I think it is fine. It is an effect as any other (a spell for instance). My point starting the thread was how much easier Melissan (fights 2, 3 and 4) and Demogorgon (two bosses where you dont need metagaming to know where they will the spawn) were by laying a bunch of traps that kill them before they can even act. Not even the most OP wizard can do that.
In any case I like what someone said above. The OP is not the traps. It is being able to stack 7 at the same time that kill anything in the game
The more traps one has in one area, the higher the chance is to detect them. I think that makes sense, I mean, you got trip-wires, pressure-plates, and trap-thingies galore all put into a small area!
Hmmm...I wonder what that pile of sharp, metal things is there in the room that is ten feet high, with strings going every which where...I think I will go plunge my hand into it! Ya think?!
After detecting them...DON'T mess with them! Especially DON'T SPAWN ON DA THRONE O TRAPS!
Yup.
I said it first.
Throne-O-Traps.
It is trademarked, so don't use it! It's Allllllll mine!
As to trapping Mel and Demogorgon into oblivion, I'm not a frequent TOB player and to be honest the only time I remember using them in a slightly cheesy way was in round 1 to deal with Mel. But that was a heavily modded (SCS, Ascension etc) game, so the traps didn't even do that much for my cause, which made me conclude that mages are too powerful compared to other classes. Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, maybe some debuffs, and a string of Abi Dalzims or Comets are no less devastating than a couple of spike trapsI think. Alhough I think Mel is immune to time stop...
Perhaps the trap setting system could be a bit more sophisticated. My point is that at the current state of things the player can decide whether to "abuse" the system (and to what extent).
And also, I agree mages are OP in D&D once you pass a certain level. That is just how the game is designed (until 4th. I think in that one everyone was similar).
Also, agree on mages being OP. High level spells are ridiculous. 4th Edition was my favorite edition of D&D because melee players do more than auto attack, and casters don't have the same crappy spell system that makes the group rely on what is memorized to fit a situation (also part of why I like the Sorcerer and Favored Soul in later D&D games).
The problem is, that the ai can't do that for a player placed traps. Even the shadomaster himself will follow you mindlessly and die on set of traps even when it was put there by much lower level thief in a few rounds.
Ok while I generally agree with what you're saying, this is where I disagree. You don't HAVE TO pile up 7 spike traps to take an enemy down. You could pick other HLAs or decide only to set a limited number of traps at a a time (for instance roleplaying a cautious thief who doesn't place all his eggs into one basket).
And as to the kiting, the enemy does the same. For example the trap at the slaver stockade near the opening toward the area with the captured children has screwed me more than once. The guarded compund has a few nasty traps upstairs. And what about Reijek Hidesman the skinner?