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Are traps too OP?

Had never played with a thief before (only Jan Jansen and he does not get that many HLAs in a 6 man party).

Now wih Hexxat I have just spike trapped my way to godhood with Melissan. I understand a mage 30th being able to popcorn any boss before they can do something useful if well rested with a couple of alacrities and s time stop. But the traps just seem a bit too much. Am I being biased?
Pibaro
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Comments

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    I use them rarely, if ever, for this reason, but I see no reason other people shouldn't be able to if that's what they want.
    JuliusBorisov
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,938
    Yes, traps are definitely OP (like some other spells/abilities of other classes).
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited February 2014
    @pibaro yes, there are other things that are OP but traps act even before contingencies! :-)

    Also, they seem to overpass stoneskin or any protection anyway? Killed draconis after he turned into a dragon, buffed and followed charname to the Welcome Party at the end of the stairs.
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,938
    Yes, you are right, as i said traps are definitely OP :D
    But try playing Black Pits 2 with a fighter/mage using only time stop (even 3-4 times in a row) + improved haste.... It's veeeery veeeery OP.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited February 2014
    Yes, the BG take for time stop is also very OP. You should not be able to attack. In any case, some final bosses are inmune to it, but not to traps. Hence, my question about traps being too OP even for the general level of OPness in ToB :-)

    I might be biased though, and just accept epic casting because I have used it often.
    PibaroBlackraven
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited February 2014
    More than metagaming it is the fact that it takes 6 seconds to plant them and you can plant enough spikes in a square foot to make a mountain :-) Many big boss fights you know you are gonna face a boss and can prepare (3 of the 5, melissan, demogorgon). Then you can just lure them there. In some cases you know where exactly they will be (demogorgon, 2nd/3rd fight with Melissan) so you can plant them there without metagaming
  • Stasis_SwordStasis_Sword Member Posts: 91
    I have mixed feelings. In general I like traps and feel they give some much needed flavor (and oomph) to thieves. I'm not sure a spike trap is that OP compared to a deva or plantar. The main issue as others have mentioned is HLA trap stacking.
    MacHurto
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited February 2014
    Yes, I agree with @stasis_sword. Problem is not the 6 seconds (thats my bias), damage or quickness. Problem is being able to stack 140d6 damage somewhere. That's what is too OP for me.

    Spamming Skull traps/delayed fireballs is similar, I guess
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    The thing is that without traps Thieves bring little to the table in terms of combat during TOB. Every other class is more valuable in combat if you remove traps, and every single class has elements that make them pretty OP by TOB.

    A Fighter/Cleric or Paladin getting 85% physical resistance? OP

    A Fighter/Mage or Kensage combining Timestop with Improved haste for 10 APR? OP

    A Sorcerer or Wild Mage Casting Timestop + Improved Alacrity and then emptying their spellbook? OP

    Traps are OP and the only major difference is that you need to use a bit of metagame knowledge to get as much out of them as everyone else's OP abilities.
    jackjackJuliusBorisovvladpen
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    But are they really as OP? 85% damage reduction is great but not that useful against mages. The Time stop combos are very powerful but they still dont work as well as 7 spike traps even when the enemy is not time stop inmune.

    And for metagaming, charname knows where the two most powerful bosses (allegedly) will appear so it isnt metagaming. :-)
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 472
    Traps are not just OP, they are horridly, badly done. The AI should be able to see them where possible and either avoid them or even disarm them. Without this ability in the AI, it makes Traps as bad as using the console to just kill the enemy outright, for it is basically the same thing.

    Really bad are spike traps not being absorbed by Stoneskin, etc.

    Basically, there is no "balance" for how BG does Traps.

    I never use the ability. The game would be laughingly easy.

    Btw - Rogues have sneaking, can pick locks, disarm traps, equip all items (whatever it is called) and can backstab. They bring more than enough to the table without also giving them Set Trap as it is done in BG.

    NWN has the same problem with Trap stacking - just lay down oodles of Holy Traps and kill just about anything. At least in NWN there are components, etc, to the Trap equation (with the exception of Recover Trap). The AI is still horrible with Traps.
    ArchaosMacHurtoArizael
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,406
    edited February 2014
    @WebShaman
    I have used traps very very VERY few times in the BG, IWD and NWN games. Like less than the fingers of one hand.
    Because it requires metagaming and they're just cheesy. I prefer using tactics to beat the enemies, not stack traps.

    At least with prebuffing I can rationalize as using Divination or scouting. "There are enemies ahead, we should prepare."
    With traps it's like "I know the AI will spawn/walk there so I'm stack-trapping the hell out of it."
  • Stasis_SwordStasis_Sword Member Posts: 91
    Corvino said:

    The thing is that without traps Thieves bring little to the table in terms of combat during TOB. Every other class is more valuable in combat if you remove traps, and every single class has elements that make them pretty OP by TOB.

    A Fighter/Cleric or Paladin getting 85% physical resistance? OP

    A Fighter/Mage or Kensage combining Timestop with Improved haste for 10 APR? OP

    A Sorcerer or Wild Mage Casting Timestop + Improved Alacrity and then emptying their spellbook? OP

    Traps are OP and the only major difference is that you need to use a bit of metagame knowledge to get as much out of them as everyone else's OP abilities.

    I half agree. Traps are very important especially as the usefulness of backstab wanes in TOB. They definitely needed something, but the way traps are implemented is very prone to abuse...

    Let's compare the OP abilities:
    85% Physical resistance - Can still be killed by magic.
    Timestop - Some enemies are immune.
    Multiple Spike Traps - Could roll 1s? To my knowledge no enemy in the game can survive these.

    Ultimately the answer is you control how cheesy you want your game to be, but they are ridiculous overpowered.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,398
    edited February 2014
    I don't think traps are OP for most of the series. Namely because you really only get a lot of them in BG2. In BGEE for instance you can only get 2 traps as a normal thief and 4 if you are a bounty hunter. Also traps (particularly normal snares) improving with thieving levels is really one of the few advantages single class thieves have over multiclass ones. Once you get into spiked traps its a different story, but a lot of the higher level spells/abilites (Improved Alacrity, Dragon's Breath, etc) are obscenely powerful so I don't see what the big deal is there.
    Stasis_SwordJuliusBorisov
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    True @Stasis_Sword, it's mostly about limits you set yourself.

    But in each of the examples I gave there's another way to use the same character that is still OP. The same Paladin combining AoF, DoE and Hardiness can then switch to Carsomyr, Ring of Gaxx and Amulet of the Seldarine in combat for 70%+ Magic resistance. The Timestop & Improved Alacrity mage could equally go with Chain Contingency & 3 Horrid Wiltings.

    Traps are a bit one dimensional in the way that they give thieves an advantage. Apart from UAI which has a few horrifically cheesy applications they are the only way to make a pure thief stand out in the endgame. Most classes have a smorgasboard of cheese rather than a thief's mild cheddar.
    elminsterStasis_SwordjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 472
    I just don't buy it!

    Who is opening all those chests, disarming all those Traps in your party without having to sleep everytime the spells are used up? Who is scouting ahead without using up resources?

    Just because the class may not be adding to combat like your main tanks, or your main AoE controllers, doesn't mean they are not important, contributing members of your party! Rogues were never meant to be offensive powerhouses.

    But if you add in Traps as implemented in BG2:EE, you don't NEED anyone else but Rogues! This is how OP and broken Traps are. Just trap, trap, trap your way to victory, game over, it was fun, k thanx. Why cast a spell, hoist a blade, or even don armor?

    Heck, you don't even NEED equipment! Sneak, lay traps, traps, traps, kill.

    Traps takes the need out of needing equipment to survive and prosper. Don't need a Cleric, cause one never gets injured. Don't need a Druid, cause the enemy is dead before Insect Plague. Don't need Fighters, cause there is nothing to fight. Don't need Mages, cause there is nothing to cast spells at!

    I bet you could practically solo the whole game by just setting traps! Let me see, X will appear here (trap, trap, trap) and Y here (trap, trap, trap). Oh, and Z here (trap, trap, trap).

    That should do it! Yoohooo, here I am! Come and get me, I am a hapless, delicious Rogue!

    It just doesn't make any sense. Anything that makes other Classes useless in a party is broken and OP IMHO.
    sarevok57vladpen
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 200
    The problem is, as was already said, with the implementation.

    In PnP no high lvl NPC or even dragons would mindlessly follow lonely guy who just shot 1 arrow at them only to die at stack of traps. They would be able to detect them and than disarm/bypass them, or protect themselves with magic.

    I personaly occasionaly use trapas if I know about the enemies in advance, use only limited ammout of traps. Also I lure only those enemise that are known to have low INT/WIS scores.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 2,994
    For some reason traps get more criticism than uberpowerful high level mage spells. As if only mages are entitled to be powerful.
    I like traps. Yes, one can play them cheesily, but not necessarily so. A thief can scout a place, discern possibly dangerous enemies and place a couple of traps out of their sight. The party can then confront the possible enemies, and if hostilities occur the party can hit and run, seemingly trying to escape, but in fact luring the enemy to the thief's well-placed traps. This isn't unrealistic and requires strategic insight just as spellcasting.
    Besides spellcasting can be done with cheese as well... "Hey, this area is full of basilisks.. What a coincidence, I just memorized 4 Protection from Petrification spells when we rested." or "Wow, Firkraag is actually a dragon. Never saw that one coming... Thank Mystra I memorized 3 Lower Resistances I normally never use."

    I think it's easier to make an argument for arcane magic to be OP at higher levels or for divine magic to be UP, if you compare both classes of magic.
    vladpen
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    One thing I never understood was why enemy thieves can't detect and disarm your traps. Do they have a built-in non-detection effect?
    element
  • Stasis_SwordStasis_Sword Member Posts: 91
    jackjack said:

    One thing I never understood was why enemy thieves can't detect and disarm your traps. Do they have a built-in non-detection effect?

    Charname is an evil genius. He studied his own limited range to detect traps and created traps that attack 1 foot before that range. By the time enemy thieves could detect the trap they are already dead, muhahaha.
    jackjackJuliusBorisov
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited February 2014
    @blackraven I think traps get that type of criticism because it is more unrealistic if seen from a D&D perspective. Spells are as they are but no GM in the world would allow you to build a trap in 6 seconds :-)

    For BG I think it is fine. It is an effect as any other (a spell for instance). My point starting the thread was how much easier Melissan (fights 2, 3 and 4) and Demogorgon (two bosses where you dont need metagaming to know where they will the spawn) were by laying a bunch of traps that kill them before they can even act. Not even the most OP wizard can do that.

    In any case I like what someone said above. The OP is not the traps. It is being able to stack 7 at the same time that kill anything in the game
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 472
    Well, they should of made it like this :

    The more traps one has in one area, the higher the chance is to detect them. I think that makes sense, I mean, you got trip-wires, pressure-plates, and trap-thingies galore all put into a small area!

    Hmmm...I wonder what that pile of sharp, metal things is there in the room that is ten feet high, with strings going every which where...I think I will go plunge my hand into it! Ya think?!

    After detecting them...DON'T mess with them! Especially DON'T SPAWN ON DA THRONE O TRAPS!

    Yup.

    I said it first.

    Throne-O-Traps.

    It is trademarked, so don't use it! It's Allllllll mine!
    MacHurtoelminsterCorvino
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 2,994
    MacHurto said:

    @blackraven I think traps get that type of criticism because it is more unrealistic if seen from a D&D perspective. Spells are as they are but no GM in the world would allow you to build a trap in 6 seconds :-)

    For BG I think it is fine. It is an effect as any other (a spell for instance). My point starting the thread was how much easier Melissan (fights 2, 3 and 4) and Demogorgon (two bosses where you dont need metagaming to know where they will the spawn) were by laying a bunch of traps that kill them before they can even act. Not even the most OP wizard can do that.

    In any case I like what someone said above. The OP is not the traps. It is being able to stack 7 at the same time that kill anything in the game

    Thanks, I get your point. Maybe different types of traps should require different setting times? As with spells actually. The more complex (and devastating the traps), the longer the setting time.

    As to trapping Mel and Demogorgon into oblivion, I'm not a frequent TOB player and to be honest the only time I remember using them in a slightly cheesy way was in round 1 to deal with Mel. But that was a heavily modded (SCS, Ascension etc) game, so the traps didn't even do that much for my cause, which made me conclude that mages are too powerful compared to other classes. Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, maybe some debuffs, and a string of Abi Dalzims or Comets are no less devastating than a couple of spike trapsI think. Alhough I think Mel is immune to time stop...
    Perhaps the trap setting system could be a bit more sophisticated. My point is that at the current state of things the player can decide whether to "abuse" the system (and to what extent).
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    Yes, agree. You can always find ways to abuse the game. Thing with traps is that it is the only way to use them :-/ Plant them somewhere and kyte the enemy or just plant it where it will spawn.

    And also, I agree mages are OP in D&D once you pass a certain level. That is just how the game is designed (until 4th. I think in that one everyone was similar).
    powurz
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    jackjack said:

    One thing I never understood was why enemy thieves can't detect and disarm your traps. Do they have a built-in non-detection effect?

    The Shadow Thieves who assisted you at Bodhi's Lair at Chapter 6 do disarm the 2 traps at the basement level.
    elminsterjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • powurzpowurz Member Posts: 28
    MacHurto said:

    Yes, agree. You can always find ways to abuse the game. Thing with traps is that it is the only way to use them :-/ Plant them somewhere and kyte the enemy or just plant it where it will spawn.

    And also, I agree mages are OP in D&D once you pass a certain level. That is just how the game is designed (until 4th. I think in that one everyone was similar).

    Pretty much this. I've never really been one to use the traps in the game, so when I saw this thread I figured I'd give it a try. I took down a dragon in seconds even after Stoneskin. It's a shame, too, because I think the few times I've used traps (they weren't the special ones) they'd been a nice thing to have, but not overly strong. That being said, having never abused them before I can see why you just have to choose not to abuse them.

    Also, agree on mages being OP. High level spells are ridiculous. 4th Edition was my favorite edition of D&D because melee players do more than auto attack, and casters don't have the same crappy spell system that makes the group rely on what is memorized to fit a situation (also part of why I like the Sorcerer and Favored Soul in later D&D games).
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 200
    bbear said:

    jackjack said:

    One thing I never understood was why enemy thieves can't detect and disarm your traps. Do they have a built-in non-detection effect?

    The Shadow Thieves who assisted you at Bodhi's Lair at Chapter 6 do disarm the 2 traps at the basement level.
    This is true, but irrelevant for the topic. The ai is scripted to distract traps put there by the developers.

    The problem is, that the ai can't do that for a player placed traps. Even the shadomaster himself will follow you mindlessly and die on set of traps even when it was put there by much lower level thief in a few rounds.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 2,994
    @MacHurto "Thing with traps is that it is the only way to use them."
    Ok while I generally agree with what you're saying, this is where I disagree. You don't HAVE TO pile up 7 spike traps to take an enemy down. You could pick other HLAs or decide only to set a limited number of traps at a a time (for instance roleplaying a cautious thief who doesn't place all his eggs into one basket).
    And as to the kiting, the enemy does the same. For example the trap at the slaver stockade near the opening toward the area with the captured children has screwed me more than once. The guarded compund has a few nasty traps upstairs. And what about Reijek Hidesman the skinner?
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