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Are traps too OP?

2

Comments

  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    @blackraven, what I meant is that there is lots of OP tactics to be done with a mage, but many involved a fairly good knowledge of the game and its mechanics. F.ex. Time stop + shapechange mindflayer and eat somebodys brain. Not everyone thinks of that. Or at least I had never thought of that before this forum :-D

    Traps are just point and click. You can only plant them where people spawn or kyte them to where the trap is. That is it :-)

    Yes, you can avoid spamming an area with them. However, if you have to control what the game allows you to do with traps so it does not get too OP... Wouldnt that mean that by definition traps are too OP? :-) timestop + mindflayer is too OP but a mage has a million other options
    .
    I have no problem with kyting, anyway (I guess that was more like a general comment from you and not particularly for me but just to clarify). If the enemy chooses to follow you that is their problem. Same as if you decide to rush after an enemy. It would be good if thief ennemies could disarm them, but that is just how the game is.

    In any caee, glad that we agree on most things!

    Blackraven
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 2,998
    @MacHurto: Yes , it is good to agree :)
    You have a point that controlling/limiting your use of traps suggests that traps are by definition too OP...
    On the other hand your comment "a mage has a million other options" also suggests that arcane magic is even more OP. I guess that's what I had been doing: comparing the power of traps with other classes' high level powers, (above all) arcane magic.

    BTW I'm testing and reporting on this forum about a playthrough with a Bounty Huntress using the so-called 'trap revisions' mod. This is in BGT as the mod is not (yet) avaiable in BG:EE. The mod makes sweeping changes to the trap setting system. The damage output and other effects of a trap depend on the number of skill points invested, so to be really effective with your traps you'll have to invest hundreds of skill points in trap setting (which somewhat justifies being powerful with them). Setting a trap now costs gold (the HLA traps are the most expensive ones at 2500 gold each). This may prevent one from "trap spamming". Also, many traps have been changed, some even eliminated (including the time stop trap).
    If you're interested, please have a look: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/474416.
    So far I haven't received much attention, so any comments or feedback are very welcome.
    MacHurto
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 472
    Magic can be countered, and the AI uses Magic very well against you.

    IIRC, there is only one trap in the game that you cannot disarm (and it will kill you) - that one in Spellhold (does like 700+ damage and can't be disarmed). Other than that, none of the Rogues in BG, BGII:SoA and BGII:ToB or any add-on stack traps against you.

    If THAT was included, then it would make things less OP (because the AI could do the same against you). And, of course, being able to detect and disarm Traps...
    jackjackelminsterArtona
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Saying no to Spike Traps but keeping the rest could be an option. Your rogue gets a few damage traps, fireball traps and time traps but that's it. Still powerful but without being able to kill the final Boss *as she spawns* every time.
    jackjack
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    Not only magic can be countered, it is also just part of the setting. In D&D, mages are OP once you pass level 7-9. Before level 5, they are useless. That's just the game rules used by BG. Mages are OP but there is nothing to do about it :-)

    I will check that thread with new trap rules, thanks
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,202
    Traps are useful after you have been killed and used CHARNAMES unique power... RELOAD! You can then spam traps and watch that critter dare to try and send you to the hand of death screen again...

    If you don't use the RELOAD power... Then I can't see traps being very useful as no one can remember the exact spawn point of every single enemy that you would wish to use them against...

    I suspect many trap users are chronic RELOADERS.

    And there is nothing wrong with that if you consider I reload to just check out EVERY dialogue option...
    jackjackBlackravenRavenslightvladpen
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    Actually for both demogorgon and amelissan you can guess where they are. And other tough foes can be kyted. So reload is not necessary :-)

    That said, I also reload a lot to check dialog options and because I try to rush things and die miserably
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @MacHurto is completely correct. Many of the toughest battles in the game are very predictable without metagame knowledge. Most Dragons start neutral and are vulnerable to traps. Demogorgon and Amelyssan are pretty obvious, as are the various seals on the fourth level of Watcher's Keep.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    I fail to see how magic can be countered :
    - time stop + improve alacrity or time stop + shapechange mind flayer will kill anything which is not time stop immune, without them having any chance to retaliate.
    - for the rare ones immune to timestop, spamming skull trap under improved alacrity will kill them very quickly

    Yes, traps are OP. But magic is MUCH more.
    That being said it is true that magic probably requires more knowledge of the game to be really powerful.
    SkaffenBlackraven
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited March 2014
    @mumumomo more than magic, in your examples it is timestop that is too OP and I agree with that (as said above). Also, you need to know who you face to know what to cast against it during timestop. If mindflayer attack counts as magic weapon (i dont know) you have to dispel the protection and then time-stop+shapechange. You probably need to recast time-stop if you are a vanilla mage as your tacho is low and get only one attack per round.

    Skull trap, you need to dispel their magic protections (i think) and decrease their magic resistance. That needs you to move around so spellstrikes/lower resistances arrive before the skulls. Also without robe of vecna, you will likely need several timestops in a row.

    None of those complications exist for spamming 7 spike traps. Point, click and see the guy get killed when he gets a red circle :-)
    WebShamanelminster
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Timestop is not the only OP spell. Improve alacrity + 6 skull trap with auto pause is as powerful. (And insta kills melissane)
    Chain contigency to cast 3 spells at once also kills almost anything.

    Final point, you underestimate shapeshifting :
    - in mind flayer form you have 4 attacks/round
    - in time stop you auto hit.
    - so in 2 rounds of time stop, you will remove 40 points of INT... Enough to kill 3-4 ennemies, no matter how powerful they are.

    Draconis dies instantly, sendai and abazigail also (but killing them that way break their script...)
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 716
    edited March 2014
    @mumumomo skull trap ignores MR?

    mindflayer attack ignores PfMW or Stoneskin? Because if you have to dispel them it takes more than a round
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 472
    There are ways to get around the spells, though. You can have high MR, and absorb the spell levels, for example. With SCS active, Casters get "pre-buffed" when spawned, so you have to deal with that first.

    Traps?

    None of the above. Just trap, trap, TRAP! your way to Godhood.

    There is NO PROTECTION against traps for the AI.
    elminsterMacHurtojackjack
  • ZagaciousZagacious Member Posts: 57
    edited August 2
    MacHurto said:

    Had never played with a thief before (only Jan Jansen and he does not get that many HLAs in a 6 man party).

    Now wih Hexxat I have just spike trapped my way to godhood with Melissan. I understand a mage 30th being able to popcorn any boss before they can do something useful if well rested with a couple of alacrities and s time stop. But the traps just seem a bit too much. Am I being biased?

    For a solo character, they seem pretty fair, but it requires a lot of (IMO) abuse/exploit to get them to work. And they should have a chance to be dodged/reduced damage at low level, cause as it is they are pretty OP. level 7 assassin I can make like 5-6 traps in one area that total does over 100 damage, and I haven't tested it but it seems like the effects of poison weapon are also applied to traps if it's currently active on your Assassin. If there was some kind of saving throw or something depending on Thief Skill/Level they would be more balanced.

    The main reason they feel balanced to me is because thieves don't have much else without going Fighter/Thief or something, even Assassins alone are kind of weak relatively, I do feel there should be some of kind of saving throw or thac0 of the traps so they don't just instantly hit everything, and the range is pretty crazy they don't even have to step near the trap.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,306
    The main issue with traps is that they are the only strength of pure thieves. Lategame, what does a thief can do?
    Hide in Shadows? Most enemies see through it
    Backstab? Most relevant enemies are immune to it
    Detect Traps? What's the point? You may as well tank it with your immune-to-everything supertanky fighter
    Lock Picks? You might have to use it 10 times in ToB (Exit WK)
    Detect Illusions? You may as well cast True Sight with someone else, and that won't make one of your characters useless because they are focused on that

    Now let's have a look at HLAs:
    We have some clanky defensive HLAs, some crappy alchemist HLAs, because the potions they give you already have 20 of each, we have Assassination which is basically "your next hit will be a backstab even if you don't hide" because you only have one, maybe two APRs on a thief. Then we have Use Any Item, which is excellent but it's not what will make your Thief anywhere close to a high level fighter or a mage or whatever. UAI really shines on multiclass and bards, but pure thieves... not so much... And then you have traps. Bypass everything, deal stupid damage, can instant everyone if you stack them,...
    Artonasemiticgod
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,407
    I definitely had no luck trying to trap the Battle Horrors in Cloakwoods, they were immune to the damage. :(
    semiticgod
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 531
    edited August 4

    Yup, traps are totally stupid.
    - ridiculous stacking damage
    - the AI is utterly unequipoed to deal with it... I can scout and disarm, why can't they??
    - and thus, idiocy like set traps in front of enemies, go to sleep, and then set more traps and they never notice
    - need we mention throwing traps?
    - the damage is for some reason unlike any other damage in the game and cannot be resisted
    - magical traps... where did thieves learn how to teleport people and stop time??

    Etc. the whole mechanic seems like something slapped onto the game at the last minute.

    Thieves are for utility and support. Even at high levels that is a fine role for a party. Stuff I see thieves doing at high levels:
    - traps that make sense... darts, poison, combustion, entangling
    - traps should hurt or hobble or disadvantage opponents, but not slay demigods
    - more offensive melee power (thac0/APR) while still being more fragile than warriors
    - low-level illusion magic (this is actually a legit thing for high-level thieves in 2E)
    - get really low AC and draw aggro to reduce the concentration of enemy attacks

    Those seem like perfectly fun things for a thief to do. Why we think "archmages get super-powerful spells, thieves should be super-powerful too!" is beyond me. Being an archmage is a career choice for people who want to become super powerful. If you choose not to do that, it's on you.

    It isn't that much better in NwN either imo. For some reason it seems like a tough game mechanic to implement. And they don't set off their own traps either... Chautau Irenicus is one of the few places I've seen enemies succumb to traps in the environment.

    I mean I've thought about it sometimes, but exactly how do you implement something like this in a good way? I'm honestly curious about it, with enemy AI taken into consideration as well.

    I imagine scripted quest events and such are usually the best way to use this mechanic, but I have no idea.
    tbone1
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,306

    Yup, traps are totally stupid.
    - ridiculous stacking damage
    - the AI is utterly unequipoed to deal with it... I can scout and disarm, why can't they??
    - and thus, idiocy like set traps in front of enemies, go to sleep, and then set more traps and they never notice
    - need we mention throwing traps?
    - the damage is for some reason unlike any other damage in the game and cannot be resisted
    - magical traps... where did thieves learn how to teleport people and stop time??

    Etc. the whole mechanic seems like something slapped onto the game at the last minute.

    Thieves are for utility and support. Even at high levels that is a fine role for a party. Stuff I see thieves doing at high levels:
    - traps that make sense... darts, poison, combustion, entangling
    - traps should hurt or hobble or disadvantage opponents, but not slay demigods
    - more offensive melee power (thac0/APR) while still being more fragile than warriors
    - low-level illusion magic (this is actually a legit thing for high-level thieves in 2E)
    - get really low AC and draw aggro to reduce the concentration of enemy attacks

    Those seem like perfectly fun things for a thief to do. Why we think "archmages get super-powerful spells, thieves should be super-powerful too!" is beyond me. Being an archmage is a career choice for people who want to become super powerful. If you choose not to do that, it's on you.

    Well the reason is simply that the devs wanted every class to be satisfying to play at most levels. How would it feel if your PC was unable to do anything lategame, while Edwin destroys everything and Dorn attacks 10 times a round for a ton of damage? Certainly bad. Maybe not for you or me or experimented players that actually mind about game balance, but for newer players.

    So they made traps. Ultra strong traps. A bad implementation to solve a real issue. 3E kinda did something nice on this point with Epic Precision but 2E failed to have that
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    I like traps.

    I don't understand the mentality that says "I don't like something (without any compulsion whatsoever to make use of them) so they should be removed/changed".

    Traps give you choice. And in BG the more choices the better. They allow me sometimes to get through a difficult fight at too low a level so I can then go on and do something else I was planning to do at that point.

    Case in point, bloody Neera.
    Having to avoid a section of Beregost is super annoying. Let alone the PTB knowing they'd written a character that has no place in BG and so gave her the only gembag just to wind you up. I love planting traps to thwart their plans to foist that nuisance on me.
    ShikaoAerakar
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 296

    I don't understand the mentality that says "I don't like something (without any compulsion whatsoever to make use of them) so they should be removed/changed".

    Case in point, bloody Neera.
    Having to avoid a section of Beregost is super annoying. Let alone the PTB knowing they'd written a character that has no place in BG and so gave her the only gembag just to wind you up. I love planting traps to thwart their plans to foist that nuisance on me.

    Something wrong with taking the bag and giving her the boot?
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,039
    edited August 5

    I like traps.

    I don't understand the mentality that says "I don't like something (without any compulsion whatsoever to make use of them) so they should be removed/changed".

    Traps give you choice. And in BG the more choices the better. They allow me sometimes to get through a difficult fight at too low a level so I can then go on and do something else I was planning to do at that point.

    Case in point, bloody Neera.
    Having to avoid a section of Beregost is super annoying. Let alone the PTB knowing they'd written a character that has no place in BG and so gave her the only gembag just to wind you up. I love planting traps to thwart their plans to foist that nuisance on me.

    On my latest playthrough Neera killed herself with a surge so I got the bag for free without having to deal with Neera.

    Which I liked; she reminds me too much of somebody that I used to know. (Queue the video!)


    Aerakar
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,327
    @Quickblade

    It's not that I particularly want to kill Neera, it's that I want the gembag and have the nuisance of avoiding that bit of Beregost sorted out.

    Far as I know (and may well be wrong and there's a way round it) the moment she sees you, you are dragged into the fight with the RW. And at low level that's dangerous. Especially as the silly cow uses a colour spray immediately after the cut scene that catches the party.

    A few traps laid where the RW appear, just out of sight of Neera (so before triggering the encounter) sorts the RW out enough to give you a chance when they turn hostile.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 2,023
    The distance trigger for talking is a bit less than sight range - so you can edge into view of her and just shoot her down without bothering with traps.

    Having said that I agree with your main point that there's no reason to nerf traps just in search of game balance. I think one of the reasons Baldur's Gate has remained popular over the years is precisely because it's not perfectly balanced - for instance that lends itself to modding and changing strategies over time to adjust difficulty in the light of experience.
    ThacoBellArctodusArdulAerakar
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 491
    I think the RR mod got it right on the BH and HLA traps thematically as well as trap's spot on the power curve as a thief levels up.

    They are still powerful enough since they bypass MR, but not in a totally overwhelming way.
    ArctodusZaghoul
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,676
    Grond0 said:

    Having said that I agree with your main point that there's no reason to nerf traps just in search of game balance. I think one of the reasons Baldur's Gate has remained popular over the years is precisely because it's not perfectly balanced - for instance that lends itself to modding and changing strategies over time to adjust difficulty in the light of experience.

    I disagree with this entirely... but setting that aside, even accepting this on its face it still doesn't address any of the problems with the way traps are implemented. I.e., badly.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,407
    If you can dual a fighter to a wizard overnight, I kinda suspect making traps in advance for a thief isn't unreasonable. In other words, they may literally be setting a pre-fab device... they have to rest to build new ones perhaps.

    Why be limited in how many they can carry then? Well, traps being one-offs would be complex, and being jury-rigged each would be unique, so perhaps a rogue can only keep track of a small number of traps, and more would be unsafe?

    *shrug*

    As for effects, I do think they are a bit big, but even nastier traps are used against you (well, until HLA). Most enemies aren't able to detect traps, so I'm not too shocked that they fall for them (would be nice if some thieves did check, even if combat is distracting them), but it is odd a dragon ignores your thieves' fiddling with a trap. Still, if they're just finishing up something prefab, might be possible to be discreet(ish).
    ShikaoZaghoulAerakar
  • Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 37
    I have never used a thief because I'm just too fond of cleric/mage charnames, and with all the detect trap and knock spells a thief is not really needed
    I usually use priest of Talos so I can at least fight myself out of the dungeon and dual to Mage somewhere between 10 to 15. So I'm basically still a mage by the time I reach tob, and a mage with HLA and the robe of vecna can basically kill everything within seconds and costing only a project image...ia+3*lr+5 or 6 skull traps does the same thing as stacked traps. Cleric/mages can cast their ia safely in a sanctuary(or, just before you initiate the dialogue) so you don't even need timestop.
    I'd say that's also kinda OP, except for the fact that it helps very little when facing the 8 Sendais or the 3 groups on wk layer 4... It just doesn't work when multiple enemies with high magic resistance appear in different directions.
    Well, what I'm trying to say is, nothing-not even OPs-can deal with everything right? I don't think one can really trap oneself through the whole game? Traps must have their own drawbacks too? Idk...like, how does a thief deals with the fire giant?
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,676
    edited August 8
    Again, it's the implementation that's problematic. How does a spike trap hurt beings like Demogorgon who are immune to mortal weapons?
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