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Are traps too OP?



  • Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 67

    Again, it's the implementation that's problematic. How does a spike trap hurt beings like Demogorgon who are immune to mortal weapons?

    Good point.
    And how does it goes straight through stonskins? I can even accept the fact that traps can be triggered before contingency, but Demogorgon taking full damage is really too much...I mean, he has all the physical/magical/elemental/etc resistances...

  • darkmoon500darkmoon500 Member Posts: 25
    edited September 2017
    I've never realized how useful traps were until I started reading it on here, so I only tried one when I first playing the game, didn't seem very affective to me, but that's because I never tried them later in the game, and I don't have point to put into it, just like stealth or hide in shadow, I never try back stabbing, I'm to busy putting points in find traps, pick locks, pick pockets, don't really have much time to put a thief into shadow then have then walk around and back stab, they are usually already seen, or I'm busy i tank first, cast spells secondly, it's rare for me to even use offensive spells, beserker/barbarian rage on top of that, I just like to battle it out toe to toe, mono to mono, dunno why just how I do, I guess I'd have to use two thiefs to try the trap strategy, but I feel that's a waste of a slot for another class

  • LordSithLordSith Member Posts: 5
    edited September 2017
    My first playthrough in ToB was with a thief (swashbuckler IIRC) at the time ToB come out.
    And boy, was it easy to use the spike trape (which was the best on IMO).

    Now today, I'm feeling that I have no real problem with traps or magic... unless I'm using something the opponent cannot by script-limitation deal with.
    The traps is obviously a big problem but so is, for example, the protection from undead script.

    To be clear, I discovered the power of those scrolls just yesterday - I never used it for 15 years of BG2, TOB and BGT ! - because I had a cloack which gave me this power and when Charname went fighting the shade lich, I was stunned to see the lich not moving. I thought I had a bug... I looked for an explanation, and I understood what happened when I withdrew all the equipment from Charname and saw the lich act normally. Then I spotted the "protection from undead" line of the cloack, which I hadn't seen before because I just picked it for the +3 AC bonus.

    I would have no problems if:
    - AI could disarm
    - damage were resisted in some ways

    but it seems from what I read here that's not the case.

    Overpowered is not my issue, because most things in ToB are. I remember the first time i faced amelyssan. I got wiped when my time stop strategy proved inefficient. That strategy had been my always winining trick for the first run in ToB with (Edwin I think at the time, not sure now, it has been 15 years!)

    When the game gives the AI no chance, I feel like I'm cheating.

    I'd love personaly if AI would use some of the ideas i read here such as timestop + mind flayer transformation.

    Personally, I'd love to see counters to that (limited with to create hordes of creature in your way, taking your precious stopped time, for example). Besides the int-drain of mindflayer may also be a bit boring if there is no counter... I don't know, I personnaly am always using summons against mindflayers because in the original BG game I didn't want to lose time (like against vampire I hated to have to take time to re-slot the spells after a level drain :/ in the EE that's taken care of!).

    But the traps, I'm able to find and prevent, so why couldn't the enemy do the same? And especially why is the enemy taking full damage even if any weapon has a 90+% reduction? that's boring.

    Then obviously you can rise your challenge by using less of what you believe is not challening. But I'd like the game to provide a counter so that I could use it without feeling cheating the AI.

    And to relate my whole experience: that's also why I try to use mods sometimes, such as ascension. To spice things, because when I succeed, I feel happy, not shamed.

    NB: to be perfectly honest, I never considered myself a top pro player... I'm fairly used to die in the "ADD" difficulty level.

    PS: in my opinion, aerial servant summon is also cheated. 8d4 damage and +4 weapon is quite too much. Either one or the other. But most important enemies will deathspell this so less an issue.
    Still. Why a +4 weapon for a level 6 priest spell when the deva is only +3 at level "quest" (or 10 for mage?) I can't understand. I'm considering creating a mod to reduce it for myself... just to keep things "normal". That hit me when 3 aerial summons wiped the Brain mother fight all by themselves.

  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 330
    The only issue with Spike trap is it dealing damage without a type, which is why it can't be mitigated or avoided, but as has been said it's a HLA and if you look at the Thief options at high level they are shockingly bad compared to all the other classes. The only real advantage a ToB thief has is Spike trap and the ability to use scrolls to cast spells, but even then you're limited by how many traps you can lay at once (depending on mods) and the number of scrolls you can find and keep for key battles.

    Backstab simply doesn't work on most Bosses and even if it does they may have fairly large damage resistance, they lack the APR to blast through trash quickly enough in many encounters, using any item is great for sure, but by and large that benefits Dual or multi-class thief combos, not so much a straight thief. Using weapons like carsomyr, silver sword, Axe of Unyielding are great, but you can't even become proficient and can't backstab, even weapons you be proficient in you just don't get any penalties. Simply do not have the dps for many encounters and when you start meeting enemies that can see through invisibility you can't even scout.

    By the time you reach Amelissan a solo thief would be all but useless if it wasn't for Spike trap and even with it you're probably going to get rekt due to being unable to lay them in every phase. Obviously the game isn't designed for solo play, but a thief just makes general gameplay easier, by and large a pure thief is relegated to setting a few cheesy traps, if you either chose not to do that or the encounter doesn't really allow it you mostly keep them out of the way and let basically any other class do the heavy lifting.

    I love thieves, but if they are single class and not dual or multi class they are often a wasted party slot.

  • inkblowoutinkblowout Member Posts: 45
    edited September 2017
    It's only OP if you cheese/spam them like crazy. Especially in bosses, for some reason I use it only when I scout then I prepare a trap in dungeon usually. Never I'd use it for a boss before encountering him.

    In my personal opinion traps shouldn't be put out more than once. So that means you put a trap down, and the trap has to be destroyed in order to put another one. Traps is a really cool feature which I should use more often. But I've seen people ultra cheese it. (like putting down yoshimo's special snare 3x beside a boss and it does a stupid amount of damage.) And also it shouldn't be a insta damage tool to use. it should require some mechanic to make it more interesting... like enemies having a "Save Vs Trap" or whatever.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 489
    I love using traps.

    I don't like the idea that creatures that start non-hostile and then become hostile (specifically Silke, but this also can apply to Nimbul since he exists on the map before going hostile) instantly trigger the traps once they go hostile. The traditional problem with traps is that they're not discriminate like this. Perhaps the most effective nerf that could be made is that traps can be set off if anything, hostile or otherwise, is nearby aside from a party member.

  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 574
    I've played a lot of bounty hunters and using traps to set-up layered ambushes is a lot of fun for me. I do agree though with @inkblowout about using meta-knowledge to take out bosses not being so much fun.

    I'm not sure about the one trap at a time approach, as this would drastically reduce ambush opportunities for thieves, which makes the class so fun to play as a trapper. The 7 trap limit is a step in the right direction. Perhaps the limit should be reduced to 5, or another approach could be keep it at 7 for standard traps but cap HLA traps to 1-2 at a time.

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,434
    Pokota said:

    I love using traps.

    I don't like the idea that creatures that start non-hostile and then become hostile (specifically Silke, but this also can apply to Nimbul since he exists on the map before going hostile) instantly trigger the traps once they go hostile. The traditional problem with traps is that they're not discriminate like this. Perhaps the most effective nerf that could be made is that traps can be set off if anything, hostile or otherwise, is nearby aside from a party member.

    Makes sense and something I have often thought was a bit strange. It would make trapping a bit more of a thinking game, esp. around neutral's and NPC's, familiars, summons, etc. React more like a skulltrap, to anyone.
    As regards overpowered, RR changing spike traps to piercing damage instead of magical makes much more sense, as well as the other alchemical versions of traps in that mod, maybe not so tough on some enemies then.

  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 574
    I wish the RR mod had been incorporated into the EEs fully, including the kit changes. Some of the mod was - some of the items, poison nerfing - but the trap treatment in RR got it right.

  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,095
    Khyron said:

    Traps are super powerful, yes.
    OP? Nah..

    As a new player, traps have limited value because you do not necessarily know when/where to place one.

    Using metagaming knowledge to exploit a game mechanic does not mean the tools themselves are OP.. just that the player using them has outwitted a 18 year old game.

    And traps are highly situational.. and does not under any circumstance make a thief or even f/t, even half as powerful and versatile as mage and cleric multiclass.. they just have a more specific and immediate devastating effect.

    Ps: I am not saying thieves and f/t's aren't powerful, because they truly are.. just not a match for most caster-combos, due to the way the game handles magic/physic damage

    This guy gets it.

    If you put traps where enemies spawn, then yeah, they are immensely powerful. But if you scout out an area, find enemies, set traps, and lure them into the traps? They are less powerful, more flavorful, and are fair game.

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