Arnise Keep: who is "Stronger"?

Brunachos

For me it looks like one of those side plots they just forgot about or decided it was not worthy; Tor'Gal, the troll leader says he is taking orders from someone above, someone that was able to give him "land and meat". Previously Glacias, the former Arnise bodyguard, talks about a master "whom sorcery has showed him the way". What was all that about? The Roenalls? One of the guys you rescue says the trolls were behaving strangely for their kin, kind of preservig the fortress and heading straight to the dungeons... But the roenalls look to pathetic to be able to support such an invasion: Trolls, Yuan-Ti, Umber Hulks... it sounds like someone really big backing up the hole operation. Someone somewhere made a smart guess: Could not be the rakshasa or some of their foes seeking the flail of ages?

CLsdlt80

I always thought Glaicas was just talking about sorcery because of the charm spell he's been put under, in fact, if I recall correctly, it can be dispelled. And about the other subject, I also always thought that the other family didn't seem to have that much influence or power to amass so many savage monsters, but hey... whatever.

ZaknafeinBaenre

Yep, they forgot to close this loophole. As far as I know there is no answer to who Tor'Gal was referring to.

vangoat

It was the Alhoon under the sewers. As part of his broader plan to infiltrate Athkatla, he wanted into the slavery ring that the Roenalls were part of. In return, he offered to help Isaea Roenall take out one of his most powerful foes: The de'Arnises.

SCARY_WIZARD

CLsdlt80 said:

I always thought Glaicas was just talking about sorcery because of the charm spell he's been put under, in fact, if I recall correctly, it can be dispelled. And about the other subject, I also always thought that the other family didn't seem to have that much influence or power to amass so many savage monsters, but hey... whatever.

It can. Either charm him, or dispel the effect! It was harder to do that in the vanilla game, but possible with some finessing.

CLsdlt80

vangoat said:

It was the Alhoon under the sewers. As part of his broader plan to infiltrate Athkatla, he wanted into the slavery ring that the Roenalls were part of. In return, he offered to help Isaea Roenall take out one of his most powerful foes: The de'Arnises.

I can't remember if that was explained in some part of the hidden base under the sewers quest or not... if not, where do you learn about this?

Zeratul

I think the troll talks about Firkraag

WebShaman

Well, there are some interesting "coincidences" among some of the groups that you fight, that are seemingly unconnected...

De'Arnise Keep is overrun by Trolls, Umberhulks, and Yuan-Ti. And in the Druids Grove area, you find...a Troll cave, with Trolls. Hmmm...

Umberhulks come from the Underdark...what are they doing so close to the surface? And working together with Trolls? That is...pretty weird, in and of itself.

I think it is all a plot of the Twisted Rune, myself (and I think that the Alhoon was a member). It is mentioned that a member of the Twisted Rune is an Alhoon.

Unfortunately, we will never know, as it all lies too far in the past, and David&Co. can no longer remember exactly what sort of Unfinished Business was planned with it all.

There are tidbits in the original code, and parts in Unfinished Business (the Mod) that speak abit about this, but nothing complete, unfortunately.

And so it shall remain a mystery...forever.

dustbubsy

It was a case of mistaken identity! "Stronger" was not the Alhoon, but in fact one Al Hoon, a Beregost purveyor of fine meat pastries. He was one of the many people Lord DeArnise owed money to, and decided to get even by raising a troll army (bribing TorGal with his famous steak 'n' kidneys, of course).

The machinations of the Twisted Rune, scheming Roenalls, Rakshasa or undead illithid are nothing compared to a pie-maker scorned, friends...

Brunachos

CLsdlt80 said:

I always thought Glaicas was just talking about sorcery because of the charm spell he's been put under, in fact, if I recall correctly, it can be dispelled. And about the other subject, I also always thought that the other family didn't seem to have that much influence or power to amass so many savage monsters, but hey... whatever.

Serious?? I think it is the 10th time I am going through this game and I NEVER give mind to that. Nalia speculates on him being charmed, but I always tought she was being ingenuous as ever... how amazing; that is what makes BG so great: a decade playing this stuff over and over and you can still find things you never done before...

xzar_monty

Let us not forget J. R. R. Tolkien's very conscious way of introducing unexplained stuff into his stories simply to keep the reader guessing and pondering. (For more information on this, read his posthumously published letters.) It is the mystery that endures, not the answer.

However, I think some of the stuff in BG2 is much less conscious and intentional than that.

Brunachos

Yeah, that is why I will never read his posthumously published letters: he gives way to much insight in some mystries that I prefer to keep as mysteries; but speculation is always fun!
On the Alhoon/Firkraag thing: Let us not forget that, for some unknow reason, the sewers key was in possession of Tazok. Sure the old Red fella had some dealings with those creatures, maybe linked with the keep invasion...

WebShaman

Perhaps Firkraag is also a member of The Twisted Rune...

Brunachos

He is a self sufcient an utterly insane basterd that would bow to no hierarchy... Given his quotes one can say he thinks himself able to set Athkatla on fire with no serious consequences for his health and wellfare.

smeagolheart

is there any resolution to the meat and dogs and stuff section off to the west of torgal?

Brunachos

You should prepare the Dog's meat in the kitchen, the four pieces will turn into a small cauldron. Then you should pass the Umber Hulks with an invisible npc and put the cauldron in the hole inside de cell... The UH will rush to the place, so get out throgh the back door, close both exists and avoid the upcoming battle. And don't worry about XP; you get many just for doing that.

booinyoureyes

HULK STRONGEST THERE IS

WebShaman

Actually, I find Firkraag to be a very sly Dragon, especially for a Red. Of course, he is arrogant, as is a Red Dragon's want; but obviously he sees the advantage in having allies (even if he regards them as servants).

The twisted web of deceit and deception that he weaves to bring Gorion's Charge to him is a sign of high intelligence and patience. I think that being a member of The Twisted Rune might have advantages that Firkraag could use...

booinyoureyes

Brunachos said:

You should prepare the Dog's meat in the kitchen, the four pieces will turn into a small cauldron. Then you should pass the Umber Hulks with an invisible npc and put the cauldron in the hole inside de cell... The UH will rush to the place, so get out throgh the back door, close both exists and avoid the upcoming battle. And don't worry about XP; you get many just for doing that.

Or you do both for DOUBLE XP!

Brunachos

WebShaman said:

Actually, I find Firkraag to be a very sly Dragon, especially for a Red.

You do; he don't.

And yes, he displays a high inteligence degree, but he is a total wacko. I remember seeing his stats somewhere: INT 18 or higher and WIS 3. Even for Minsc, this is damn low! But yes, I have to agree, he is quite ambitious for a dragon; he brokes the "Tolkien like" Steriotipe of a big wyrm laying over a pile of treasure and start to breed an army of goblinoids, werewolves, undead, golems and the like, besides taking the lands of windspear for himself. Impossible to guess what were his long life plans(if there is any); but I usually do let him live, just to find out (Carsomyr sucks anyway)... and you know, help to make the realms a worst place to be in.

booinyoureyes

The De'Arnise Romance mod made it Isaea Roenall. It also linked him with the slaver organization in a much more satisfying way.

kamuizin

Brunachos said:

WebShaman said:

Actually, I find Firkraag to be a very sly Dragon, especially for a Red.

You do; he don't.

And yes, he displays a high inteligence degree, but he is a total wacko. I remember seeing his stats somewhere: INT 18 or higher and WIS 3. Even for Minsc, this is damn low! But yes, I have to agree, he is quite ambitious for a dragon; he brokes the "Tolkien like" Steriotipe of a big wyrm laying over a pile of treasure and start to breed an army of goblinoids, werewolves, undead, golems and the like, besides taking the lands of windspear for himself. Impossible to guess what were his long life plans; but i usually to let him live, just to find out (Carsomyr sucks anyway)... and you know, help to make the realms a worst place to be in.

Good to know, if i'm not wrong there's an ninja-to that drain wisdom somehere with the premium merchants, so 3 hits and a dead Frikraag dies?

elminster

Brunachos said:

CLsdlt80 said:

I always thought Glaicas was just talking about sorcery because of the charm spell he's been put under, in fact, if I recall correctly, it can be dispelled. And about the other subject, I also always thought that the other family didn't seem to have that much influence or power to amass so many savage monsters, but hey... whatever.

Serious?? I think it is the 10th time I am going through this game and I NEVER give mind to that. Nalia speculates on him being charmed, but I always tought she was being ingenuous as ever... how amazing; that is what makes BG so great: a decade playing this stuff over and over and you can still find things you never done before...

To be fair it (charming Glaicas) had some issues with not working in the original BG2. Its one of the things the fixpacks fixed. So that could be one of the reasons you never heard of it.

Brunachos

booinyoureyes said:

The De'Arnise Romance mod made it Isaea Roenall. It also linked him with the slaver organization in a much more satisfying way.

Well, I hope this mod improves the Roenalls atack in the end of the fortress quest; I was expecting a decent siege wit lots of archers, wizards and melees, but when I got out I found half a dozen thugs bullying an entire castle...

CLsdlt80

elminster said:

Brunachos said:

CLsdlt80 said:

I always thought Glaicas was just talking about sorcery because of the charm spell he's been put under, in fact, if I recall correctly, it can be dispelled. And about the other subject, I also always thought that the other family didn't seem to have that much influence or power to amass so many savage monsters, but hey... whatever.

Serious?? I think it is the 10th time I am going through this game and I NEVER give mind to that. Nalia speculates on him being charmed, but I always tought she was being ingenuous as ever... how amazing; that is what makes BG so great: a decade playing this stuff over and over and you can still find things you never done before...

To be fair it (charming Glaicas) had some issues with not working in the original BG2. Its one of the things the fixpacks fixed. So that could be one of the reasons you never heard of it.

Yep, I remember doing it a couple of times in some old campaigns but in the days of the orginal BGs one would always mod the hell out of the game or use not-official fixpacks and the like... so it wasn't a 100% certainty.

Corvino

I think the only way I managed to get Glaicas to stop attacking in the original game was Dominate Person, no dispels I tried were successful.

CTKnightOwl

booinyoureyes said:

Brunachos said:

You should prepare the Dog's meat in the kitchen, the four pieces will turn into a small cauldron. Then you should pass the Umber Hulks with an invisible npc and put the cauldron in the hole inside de cell... The UH will rush to the place, so get out throgh the back door, close both exists and avoid the upcoming battle. And don't worry about XP; you get many just for doing that.

Or you do both for DOUBLE XP!

Drop a cloudkill in the cells just after you place the dog stew, then book it out the other (northeastern) door and close it in case any of them make their saves. 9000xp x4 is a nice return. Hold on to your Wand of Cloudkill with a single charge from Irenicus' dungeon or get the one from City Gates with 10 charges.

Brunachos

booinyoureyes said:

Brunachos said:

You should prepare the Dog's meat in the kitchen, the four pieces will turn into a small cauldron. Then you should pass the Umber Hulks with an invisible npc and put the cauldron in the hole inside de cell... The UH will rush to the place, so get out throgh the back door, close both exists and avoid the upcoming battle. And don't worry about XP; you get many just for doing that.

Or you do both for DOUBLE XP!

Actually, I prefer not to. It sounds silly, but I feel like it brokes my role play.

OlvynChuru

My theory is that Stronger is Jon Irenicus. Some of Irenicus's minions in the attack on Suldanessellar are trolls. Perhaps he made a deal with some troll king so that Irenicus would help them take the keep and in exchange the trolls would help him take Suldanessellar. Of course, trolls rarely keep promises, but the trolls know that Irenicus could easily slay them all if they broke their word. Tor'Gal mentions that Stronger is well spoken, and that could potentially point to Irenicus. He could've also been the one who charmed Glacias, though it's more likely that a yuan-ti mage did it. Those guys seem to specialize in enchantment magic.

DreadKhan

Rule of Convinience: Trolls are a good enemy, especially the various better trolls... they are also gimmicky to kill them, so they offer some challenge AND you need less new sprites if you reuse them in a few areas.

Firkraag would probably be a pawn of Twisted Rune, they are implausibly powerful. Also, they have a Dracolich. The full members iirc are all old undead casters. He probably isnt personally powerful enough to compete, and probably too dumb. Shangalar is better than the game suggests, and I didnt think he was their best mage.