Having HLA spells as abilities instead of top level spells

Ygramul

I think there is an SCS option for this right?

What are the thoughts on this generally?
It seems it is a trade off since with it:
- Sorcerer cannot summon Planetar after Planetar (activateable only once)
BUT
- But your F/M that made it lvl 18 finally does not need to trade its singular cast of Time Stop to choose between a Planetar or Comet or whatever.

Is the SCS compromise balanced or should it be viewed as unfair?
(How is it in PnP?)

SionIV

It would make arcane casters even more powerful. I'll gladly trade the option to have several planetars to get one for free instead, same with energy blades, dragons breath and comet. That's a lot of free level 9 spells.

Not to mention you would get the option to 'buy' them more than once. So you'll be able to have 2 dragon's breath if you click on the HLA twice, like with the traps. That's very.... VERY many high level spells + your original level 9 spells.

Ygramul

Hmmm... but the Fighter etc. abilities are very powerful once-per-day events, it is almost unfair that Mages etc. have to give up their other powers to use the best HLAs. (Never got there in the last decade, as I play no-reload now and have yet to finish SoA that way, so this is all theoretical...)

SionIV

Mages are already so much more powerful than any other class in the game, so it really isn't that unfair. If the arcane casters had been weak i would understand you, but they are so over the top right now that buffing them does not make sense.

karnor00

The SCS option doesn't allow you to select the same HLA more than once. So you are limited to one cast of each per rest.

Personally I find this works better, although I can understand not everyone will agree.

Also remember that the enemies will get the same benefit as well (assuming you choose the SCS option to give HLAs to them). So those liches will have a lot more abilities to play with.

mumumomo

I completely share SionIV point.
Arcane caster are already much more powerful than anything else. Giving them more OP spells per day will just make things worse.
I don't know about SCS though

Gotural

I disagree, you can still only select each HLA once which means you are limited to only Improved Alacrity per day, for me it's a nerf, and a good one.

SionIV

Gotural said:

I disagree, you can still only select each HLA once which means you are limited to only Improved Alacrity per day, for me it's a nerf, and a good one.

You don't need more than one of each spell when it comes to the HLA's.

Planetar? One
Improved Alacrity? One
Comet? Zero - One
Dragon's breath? Zero - One
Energy blades? Zero - One

So you're not really missing out on anything important, perhaps a second Improved Alacrity would be nice, but not needed.

vangoat

I can tell you that it's not very nice in SoA when high level enemy mages and liches ALL have planetars/dragons breath/IA etc.

Pibaro

Don't forget that Project Image can cast 9 level spells, but can't cast HLA.
So you can't summon 7-8 Planetar at the same time.

If you play a solo sorcerer, you'll also miss not being able to cast 3 IA.

I also agree with the relevant side effect regarding enemy mages and liches and their fallen planetars, IA etc.

I like it in SCS way.

Ygramul

Project Image is an exploit. I never use it. (It should use up your memorized spells; it's silly the way it is.)

Blackraven

I'm a bit divided on this one. I've played with both setups, and it didn't make much of a difference. Arcane casters rule supreme on the battlefield either way.
I suppose that if you play it smartly with the right spells memorized at level 9 (Time Stop, Spell Strike, Chapechange for some tasty brain devouring, maybe a Chain Contingency with damaging spells in it) AND have a Comet, Planater and Dragon's Breath as special abilities, you can really make the most out of your level 9 spells. Otoh some players for example really love summoning (I'm not one of them), I can imagine that they want more Planetars per day...

JuliusBorisov

Recently my totemic druid (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/629681/#Comment_629681) defeated Nizidramanii'yt the Dragon only because he was able to cast three Energy Blades HLAs and use two Greater Elemental Summoning in one battle.

There're a lot of threads of how a solo druid can defeat a dragon in the Internet and not many of them offered a really working strategy against dragons for a druid.

I've thought of using Energy Blades HLAs and it worked.

I doubt that if in my SCS setting I would have HLA spells as abilities instead of top level spells I could do it. Only one Energy Blades and only one Greater Elemental Summoning won't be enough for that fight.

So, I agree with @Gotural here.

semiticgoddess

The tweak effectively adds spell slots to the character, but it prevents you from memorizing HLAs more than once, and normally you'd spend almost all of your 9th-level spell slots on HLAs, because they're so much better than normal mage spells.

So it weakens sorcerers while strengthening mages. I consider it more balanced for arcane spellcasters. It also gives an incentive to use a broader variety of 9th-level spells, when normally you'd just be using DB, Improved Alacrity, and Summon Planetar. And since clones can't use the HLAs, it's a nerf to Project Image, a generally overpowered spell.

But @bengoshi is right about druids. Druid HLAs have an even bigger advantage over normal 7th-level spells than mage HLAs have over normal 9th-level spells. So it's a nerf to druids, who already are generally weaker than the mages, so it's less balanced when it comes to divine spellcasters.