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How BG1 NPCs are treated in BG2 - huge spoilers

LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
edited March 2014 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I noticed some venting about how BG1 NPCs end up in BG2 in several different threads recently, and for what it's worth I totally agree. Of course the joinable ones that you can continue adventuring with are developed well enough. But even there I think there is some dissatisfaction. It would be impossible to please everyone, though, of course. For both joinable and non-joinable reappearing adventurer NPCs.

My own brief takes:

Imoen - I guess I can live with her becoming more angst-ridden, and the murky metaphysical Bhaal essence soul stuff. But I personally liked her a whole lot better as a chipper pure Thief. And I know she duals well to Mage. I know. I still don't like her that way, i.e., as a spellcaster. I realize I'm probably in the minority there.

Minsc- Minsc I have no problem with in BG2. I know there's a lot of folks who feel his comedic relief schtick wears thin quickly. It kind of does for me too. But he is too endearing for me to go as far as disliking him. What endears him in BG1 isn't compromised in BG2.

Jaheira - I'm not a fan of romances in the BG series. So while she has a lot to offer in that regard, it's not a major draw for me. I guess her quest is pretty good (though I've rarely had her in the BG2 party and can't remember much about it anymore). Honestly, I liked her much better paired with Khalid, as it felt to me like their personalities sort of resonated with, and enhanced, one another.

Khalid - I know he has to die as a plot device for the Jaheira romance, but I actually liked Khalid a lot. I sort of missed him in BG2. I would have loved to see him develop into a Fighter-Mage with an additional tome or something (he was originally conceived as a F/M, I believe. He'd be multi-classed but same idea as if he'd dualed?)

Dynaheir - It bugs me a little that they killed her off. I guess it has to be in order to not have her paired with Minsc, though. I guess I can accept it.

Edwin - Original developers get the gold star here for developing him in BG2, as it is hilariously well done.

Viconia - I think they did okay here. Again, I'm no big fan of the romances, but hers is tolerable. Sort of like Edwin I think they wisely didn't veer much from what made her successful in BG1 and in fact developed it well.

Faldorn - Can't believe they made her an adversary (even making you kill her off). And a sort of fanatical crazed one at that. I would like to have seen her developed into more of a cool cucumber spy type. She is spying for her order in BG1, actually. Anyway, as a TN type of character I like to imagine her as much more poised and centered.

Garrick - At least they didn't do anything odd with him in BG2. If he can't be playable in BG2, that's fair enough. He's not the most popular NPC to begin with, so I didn't expect him to be playable. But I'm at least grateful that they didn't do anything jarring with his presence.

Coran and Safana - Possibly the biggest fail of all. Two of my favorite NPCs--and ones that I really don't see turning on the PC. If they had been evil, maybe. I suppose Safana has it in her as a CN character. But Coran? Nah.

Xzar and Monty - Okay, this is actually the biggest fail now that I think of it. What were they thinking?

Ajantis - I only recently learned that he makes a cameo in which he is doomed to die. (Or possibly if I knew it back when I had forgotten it.) I guess this does not trouble me too greatly. I liked him well enough, but it's okay with me that he doesn't reappear as joinable. We do have Keldorn and Anomen in BG2.

Quayle - I was never clear--is this supposed to be the same Quayle from BG1? He is totally incongruous with BG1 Quayle. This is a fail, although not a major one. It just doesn't feel anything like the character from BG1.

Tiax - Here they did alright. He's pretty funny in BG2, and very much still in character.

The Enhanced Edition NPCs I have yet to try in BG2, so I'll leave that to others to speak to.

***

Did I miss anyone?

What do you all think?

Post edited by Lemernis on
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Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I kind of liked how it ended for Faldorn and Xzar/Montaron. They did die but they still had quite the plot line and the whole duel with Faldorn was really fun. They were evil and in Faldorns case it makes perfect sense to fight you.

    Garrick is awesome as well, love the whole flirt part that eventually ends up with a wedding where he runs of with one of the brides maids if i remember correctly.

    Ajantis took the biggest hit, everyone else had at least something in the game.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    elminster said:

    Xan and Branwen make it into the tutorial but not the game itself. Arguably a fail.

    I agree but it doesn't really seem that realistic if every single former companion you have had ended up in Amn. It's already surprising that so many did. Xan would most certainly end up going back to his home.

  • CatoblepasCatoblepas Member Posts: 96
    The non-recruitable npcs got hit the hardest, IMO-particularly the evil-aligned ones who get killed off in a number of petty skirmishes. I'll also echo your opinion of the romances being rather rubbish-my personal least favorite was the Viconia one.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    Re: Jaheira and Khalid... again, because the romances feel kind of clumsy to me, I'd actually go as far as to say that I would have preferred to have seen Jaheira killed off instead of Khalid. And then for Khalid to have been made a playable NPC. Only if he gets dualed converted to Fighter/Mage, though.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Jaheira got an increase of 3 for her dexterity between bg1 and bg2. So yea I could see Khalid as a fighter mage.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    And they went ahead and dualed Imoen.

    Actually, I would prefer that they left that up to the player, as I said with Imoen.

    Khalid would end up being badass even just as a vanilla Fighter in BG2. For Khalid just give him 17 Int. (He got smarter when Jaheira was no longer around to henpeck him?)

    I was thinking dual-class for him but he's a half-elf so multi-class it would have to be.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    SionIV said:

    I kind of liked how it ended for Faldorn and Xzar/Montaron. They did die but they still had quite the plot line and the whole duel with Faldorn was really fun. They were evil and in Faldorns case it makes perfect sense to fight you.

    The battle with Faldorn is fun, but I would rather it not have been with her, i.e., I feel they could have created another character for that fight. I guess I have developed my own vision of her in my head that isn't consistent with her being a zealot.

    I suppose I can cut some slack for Xzar and Montaron's treatment, because, as you point out not everyone return as playable. But Xzar is such an awesome character that I was really disappointed to see him get tossed aside. The part about Montaron getting turned into a bird I guess I can live with, but it just didn't feel satisfying to m e either. I'm not sure what I would have done with them. But maybe it would have been better for them not to make a cameo at all?
  • Glam_VrockGlam_Vrock Member Posts: 277
    BGII Xzar was just Edwin without the mumbling.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    dustbubsy said:

    Come on, Jaheira improved immeasurably in the sequel. In the first game she was just a nag. In the second you learn so much about her - she's one of the most developed NPCs, on par with Viconia, and unlike Viconia you don't even need to romance her to get all this expansion on her character. I have to disagree that she was better with Khalid - his death brought out her vulnerability and the opportunity for development. Even if you dislike her romance I would find it hard to argue that she was a better, more rounded character in the first game.

    Not hating on Khalid either, had he survived, I think he would've developed a lot too.

    Did we play the same game? Kept quiet in BG1 while she won't stop nagging me in BG2?
  • dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
    Maybe she was quieter in BG1 insofar as all NPCs were quieter, but her voice set was far more demanding and obnoxious, if you ask me. By your command indeed.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    Jaheira kind of makes me laugh in BG1. E.g., "You are amusing , in a 'what the hell is wrong with you' kind of way," and her mischievous tone when picked for leader she says "You couldn't have made a better choice."

    I even laugh out loud when she says "An open wound in mother earth. I would plug it, had I the power," which I suspect is inspired by one of Freud's most controversial theories. (More amusing if it was unconscious on the writer's part.)

    She is at times peevish in BG1, but moreso than nagging. Or seems so to me, anyway.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited March 2014
    Wait... Coran does not betray you! At least not wittingly.

    Also I think Safana as a femme fatale is perfect. She lured Coran into it, and why would she not betray you for money? She is a CN pirate!

    I think I may be completely against the consensus on their cameos, but I thought they were fitting.

    The Garrick one is great as well.

    edit: oh yeah... Tiax's development is extremely appropriate XD
    Post edited by booinyoureyes on
  • davendaven Member Posts: 112
    I think they made most of the characters better in BG2. The only one i found strange was Quayle... how did he go from being a nut job to running a circus in Athkatla in like 3 weeks?
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Glam_Vrock said:

    BGII Xzar was just Edwin without the mumbling.

    Yes. This was the worst cameo, not only because they killed him off for no reason at all, but because the little dialogue he actually got was completely out of character. He was polite yet insane evil, not arrogant self-centered evil.

    They made a mad scientist into a conniving plotter. Plus Montaron... don't get me started. Bad form all around on that one.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    booinyoureyes said:

    Wait... Coran does not betray you! At least not wittingly.

    Also I think Safana as a femme fatale is perfect. She lured Coran into it, and why would she not betray you for money? She is a CN pirate!

    I think having any of them turn on you--unless they are clearly down and dirty evil types--doesn't really square up well with them having adventured with you through thick and thin. I dunno, the depiction of Coran in BG2 just doesn't feel like who he is to me.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    @booinyoureyes Granted that it's arguably within character for Safana, even if I don't like that she does it. I think my issue is more with Coran. I'm relying mainly on memory now from years ago, but the whole feel for Coran in BG2 felt like whoever wrote it didn't actually know the character.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    daven said:

    I think they made most of the characters better in BG2. The only one i found strange was Quayle... how did he go from being a nut job to running a circus in Athkatla in like 3 weeks?

    My head canon conspiracy theory says that he got geased/confused/mind warped by whoever gave Kalah his power. The one who didn't give him what "was promised" to him.
    The Unfinished Business mod introduces this character and expands on the genie that was bound to Kalah. He is a rakshasah "merchant" named Jafir.

    In my head this character messed with Quayle's mind, since he was an illusionist and therefore might see through his plot to entice Kalah. So he had to disappear for a while.

    You know when Quayle says he knows where he is going when you first meet him in BG1, but really doesn't? It is usually chalked up (for obvious reason) to him being delusional about his intelligence and likeability, but him having his head messed with seems to make his BGII appearance make more sense.

    (PS: obviously not the intent of the creators, particularly in regards to his characterization in the first game, but I think it makes a pretty cool conspiracy)
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2014
    booinyoureyes said:

    I think he was a guy who is used to being the one holding all the cards in his interaction with women, and also one that usually does not care about their feelings (as seen by his quest in the city of BG). It is his common "swashbuckling adventurer" character flaw.

    In that situation, he met his match in the typical "femme fatale" archetype. He didn't hold the cards since she played/was hard to get and he DID care about her... and he wasn't used to the tables being turned. I've seen this kinda thing happen in real life too.

    Thus he fell for her trap hook, line and sinker. He didn't see it because he wasn't used to being in that position. I don't think it was too out of character, considering their interactions in the first game.

    Yeah, it's all plausible, I guess. I suppose we project onto the characters. (Meaning, I probably have, not you.) I still think a bond would likely form through shared events in BG1 that would make it tough to for any but truly evil types to turn on CHARNAME. But I suppose it also should depend on who CHARNAME is too.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Well, her biography kinda makes it clear that she's not against betraying people she's adventured with for years, never mind months. If it were any other neutral character betraying you I'd agree (except Faldorn because she has psycho fundamentalist devotion to another cause... and whaddayaknow?)

    I mean, if it was Xan, Branwen, Quayle or Garrick (in absence of bad judgement) betraying you, I would agree it was bad. But I'd say it is without a doubt in character for Safana to do so.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    Re: the shadow druids, I wonder, can they even really be True Neutral?
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited March 2014
    my run down. ignoring recruit able characters who I think are fine if not better.

    Garrick - a suitable set of scenes with a happy/suitable ending for him. the best npc cameo

    Kaleid(I liked him)- is done well, yeh he dies but it has a purpose and advances Imoen, Jaheira and Irenicus as characters as well as potentially charname.

    Faldorn - her flaw isn't her role its with her characters portrayal. Further compounded by the fact she completely fails to have any meaningful interaction with either the pc whom she could know well or Jaheira who should be known to her and despised. The concept is reasonable,its execution is poor.

    Dynaheir - unlike Kaleid she is handled very poorly her death is completely of screen, offers the pc no chance to respond to it and doesn't even seem to register besides a few minor dialogues. This is almost text book in how not to kill off a character imo.

    Ajantis - There's really nothing positive about his part in bg2, it's just dreadful in everyway. Killing him off to FIrekraag could have been a decent idea, But it just completely fails on every level.

    Quayle - well lets face it this guy is a mess. I don't inherently dislike his role in bg2 but it raises to many questions which the game never even tries to address.

    Xzar and Monty - erm yeh, this is really bad it requires the character to remain static allows for no pc reaction and makes Xzar seem like a different person. Montoron isn't even a character here.

    Tiax - yeh his is good although its lame he always dies regardless of the fight, but that's more a fault of the scene then his individual part.

    Coran and Safana - well this is weird one. On one hand I like the quest and think its interesting. On the other I think the characters are a little off and once again they kill a potentially important character to the player for no real reason and with no real fanfare. I do very much like the fact the pc can offer Coran a place in the party this is the single best interaction with a bg1 cameo.


    generally a game should be very careful with any returning character, especially when killing off any character that can potentially be close to a player. Particularly given that this doesn't even take much (see Hexxat). The problem with bg2 is that it just completely fails to take this into account.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited March 2014
    Ajantis is the worst after Xzar, especially given his relationship with Keldorn.
    I don't remember if Faldorn even recognizes you, but I have no problem with her plot. She is a Shadow Druid, remember? I think you are reading too much in to her alignment in your original post, since druids are forced into that. Jaheira was TN on paper, but really Neutral Good in personality. Faldorn is basically a religious extremist who hangs out with the fringe of the druid culture (just listen to what Jaheira says)

    so overall I'd say (in my opinion of course)
    Meh: Faldorn (Branwen and Xan if you count them)
    Decent: Coran, Safana
    Awesome: Garrick, Tiax
    Nonsensical: "Quayle"
    Bad: Ajantis
    Absolutely Unforgivably Horrendous: Xzar, Montaron


    I like all the joinable returning characters. Dynaheir and Khalid were integral to the story ad led to some good developments with their partner characters.

    How I envision the non-returning characters:
    -I see Kivan riding off into the sunset after his vengeance (though his mod was pretty decent)
    -Xan goes home to, Branwen out being a viking. Both of their BG2 mods actually make sense.
    -Alora out pickpocketing (if she was to return the best place to find her is pickpocketing merchants in Trademeet :D)
    -Yeslick starts a family (never played his mod in BG2, but I can see him showing up in the Temple District)
    -Shar-Teel has a mod where she appears in the jail, which is perfect, lol
    -I see Skie as a cold, bitter housewife with Eldoth as the no-good, can't hold down a job, sleeps around, boozing husband (think Marlon Brando in Streetcar except it is a musical, hahaha)
    Post edited by booinyoureyes on
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited March 2014
    Lemernis said:

    booinyoureyes said:

    I think he was a guy who is used to being the one holding all the cards in his interaction with women, and also one that usually does not care about their feelings (as seen by his quest in the city of BG). It is his common "swashbuckling adventurer" character flaw.

    In that situation, he met his match in the typical "femme fatale" archetype. He didn't hold the cards since she played/was hard to get and he DID care about her... and he wasn't used to the tables being turned. I've seen this kinda thing happen in real life too.

    Thus he fell for her trap hook, line and sinker. He didn't see it because he wasn't used to being in that position. I don't think it was too out of character, considering their interactions in the first game.

    Yeah, it's all plausible, I guess. I suppose we project onto the characters. (Meaning, I probably have, not you.) I still think a bond would likely form through shared events in BG1 that would make it tough to for any but truly evil types to turn on CHARNAME. But I suppose it also should depend on who CHARNAME is too.
    Sorry for posting so much in this thread (I really enjoy this topic)

    Here is why I get that impression from Coran. There are two things that strike me with him in regards to his carefree playboy swashbuckler persona:

    Number 1: His bio-
    "When asked about his past, Coran reveals that he hails from the Forest of Thethir, and while he has great memories of his time there, the serene lifestyle he felt it offered was ultimately not for him. Instead he traveled to the city of Baldur's Gate, dreaming of wealth, power and respect. With nary a coin to his name he resorted to thievery, stealing only from those that he felt who could spare it, and swearing that he would quit once he had enough to start his own business. Unfortunately he soon grew to love his new lifestyle, looking for hair-raising escape, dangerous break-in, or beautiful woman. Occasionally, he would need to leave town for a while, disappearing into the wilderness until things had cooled down and his name was less known. His most recent retreat is apparently the result of a relationship with the female sorceress Brielbara. He sheepishly admits to being caught in the act of seducing a female member of the Knights of the Unicorn, and being forced to flee from the violently jealous mage."

    So, from this we get:
    a. He has a thing for dangerous/forbidden women (the Knight)
    b. He is a daredevil who thinks of short term excitement as opposed to long term safety (gets bored with his life in Tethir then gets bored with his life as a respectable businessman. Leaves them both seeking adventure)
    c. he backs out of relationships when they get too close (sorceress Brielbara)

    Number 2: His Stats-
    Charisma: 16
    Wisdom: 9
    This lopsided combo gives me the impression of the horndog millionaire playboy archetype

    Safana changes this, and bascially Manwhore Coran falls in love. Pretty much a combo of this:
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LadykillerInLove
    and this:
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FemmeFatale
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited March 2014
    Safanas betrayal does make sense, im not so sure about the way she does it also doesn't she say she genuinely likes charname when you get her charm dialogue?(although I guess that is charm dialogue)

    if I had added Skie and ELdoth id have reversed the relation ship. With Skie having become a seasoned adventurer and Eldoth would be whining about there lifes lack of luxury
    booinyoureyes said:

    I like all the joinable returning characters. Dynaheir and Khalid were integral to the story ad led to some good developments with their partner characters.

    I agree with Kaleid but I don't think I would agree about Dynaheir she doesn't really seem to be given any significance to my recollection. She certainly doesn't advance any plotlines byseides the minor interaction between minsc and aerie
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