I wish BG1 Quayle had BG2 Quayle's personality and that he were playable in the entire trilogy. I think he's very, very likeable when you meet him in Athkatla, such an improvement over BG1 Quayle... and they made him non-playable
As it stands we only have three playable gnomes (all males btw) in the trilogy and they they're all bizarre and easy to ridicule. Even various non-playable gnomes are pretty insane: think Mutamin, Kalah, Neb. (I guess the Mirrorshades are pretty cool though.) It would have been great if callow, young, naive CHARNAME could meet mature, affable, diplomatic but frivolous (Chaotic Neutral) BG2-style Quayle at the Nashkel Carnival and travel with him.
Oh well the good thing is it inspires me to play gnomish CHARNAMES who don't match the stereotype of the (borderline) lunatic freak.
*Starts game to roll a cute, cheerful, humble yet capable gnomish lass.*
BG2 is great as a standalone game, but in terms of continuity from BG1, it's a trainwreck.
Right from the beginning, the game presumes that you finished with a "canon" party that's heavily biased toward a good-aligned Charname.
Memorable NPCs like Kivan, Shar-Teel, Safana, and Xzar are either altogether absent or killed off in brief cameos.
Instead of a cheery, upbeat thief, Imoen has now become a whiny, pessimistic mage, whose thieving skills are distributed in a manner that I would never have distributed them.
Dynaheir was one of my favorite BG1 NPCs, whereas Minsc was one of my least favorite (I usually let him get killed at some point, or refuse to let him in so that he attacks me and I can have an excuse to kill him) - so you can imagine how frustrated I was by the game's "canon" beginning.
Admittedly, the makers of BG2 did improve on the backgrounds and personalities of many of the returning NPCs, like Jaheira, Viconia, and even Minsc. However, I feel that they dropped the ball by not bringing back more BG1 NPCs, especially ones like Dynaheir and Shar-Teel, whose backgrounds were somewhat shrouded in mystery and open to a lot more development.
For my upcoming playthrough of BG2, I plan on using @Vasculio's multiplayer method to import Dynaheir into BG2, then overriding Minsc's character file with something like a rat or a dead body, so I never have to hear him mention anything about Dynaheir being dead. ;-)
generally a game should be very careful with any returning character, especially when killing off any character that can potentially be close to a player. Particularly given that this doesn't even take much (see Hexxat). The problem with bg2 is that it just completely fails to take this into account.
Says it all right here IMO.
At the very least, the cameos should've been more like Garrick's or Quayle's, where they didn't end with the character being killed.
Quayle - I was never clear--is this supposed to be the same Quayle from BG1? He is totally incongruous with BG1 Quayle. This is a fail, although not a major one. It just doesn't feel anything like the character from BG1.
He is the same, because they show his BG1 picture while he's in the slime form.
The game explains his apparent change in personality by saying that his time spent with Aerie "changed" him. What makes this explanation so implausible is that not nearly enough time has passed between BG1 and BG2 to allow such a drastic change to have happened.
I agree with Kaleid but I don't think I would agree about Dynaheir she doesn't really seem to be given any significance to my recollection. She certainly doesn't advance any plotlines byseides the minor interaction between minsc and aerie
Her death (and Edwin bringing it up) is pretty much the basis for the Minsc - Edwin fight. Its not integral to the story but its probably Minsc's most important dialogue.
I like all the joinable returning characters. Dynaheir and Khalid were integral to the story ad led to some good developments with their partner characters.
I agree with Kaleid but I don't think I would agree about Dynaheir she doesn't really seem to be given any significance to my recollection. She certainly doesn't advance any plotlines byseides the minor interaction between minsc and aerie
She is Minsc's entire purpose for traveling with you and killing Irenicus.
if I had added Skie and ELdoth id have reversed the relation ship. With Skie having become a seasoned adventurer and Eldoth would be whining about there lifes lack of luxury
So uhm uhh in my headcanon Skie ditches Eldoth after enough abuse, and becomes an ultra-badass adventurer. Or maybe, uhh, she and Eldoth came across Shar-Teel, Shar-Teel left Eldoth a dismembered heap, and left Skie alone. And then Skie's weapon happened to the best warrior later.
Quayle - I was never clear--is this supposed to be the same Quayle from BG1? He is totally incongruous with BG1 Quayle. This is a fail, although not a major one. It just doesn't feel anything like the character from BG1.
He is the same, because they show his BG1 picture while he's in the slime form.
The game explains his apparent change in personality by saying that his time spent with Aerie "changed" him. What makes this explanation so implausible is that not nearly enough time has passed between BG1 and BG2 to allow such a drastic change to have happened.
Didn't somebody here have a theory about time travel? Maybe...maybe BG II Faldorn and Quayle are DOPPELGANGERS! :O!
Maybe I got it wrong but you seem to evaluate Jaheira and Viconia in the light of romance only. I cannot speak for Viconia, but for me Jaheira added a lot of atmosphere in the game even if not romanced. In fact I never romance her and yet I always take her along.
I know it all comes down to tastes and everyone is entitled to their own tastes. It just felt that you only see them as a romance option and nothing more. It's okay if you do that but maybe you're missing out something then?
I emphasized the romance because that's such a strong element to what BG2 does with romanceable characters. The way they developed Jaheira made sense, and it was cogently done--but it is in light of Khalid being killed off, which I think was done to make her romanceable. Hence my emphasis on the romance.
I wish BG1 Quayle had BG2 Quayle's personality and that he were playable in the entire trilogy. I think he's very, very likeable when you meet him in Athkatla, such an improvement over BG1 Quayle...
It's interesting how we all vary in our reactions and tastes. BG1 Quayle is pretty darn funny to me, although of course it's in a highly obnoxious way, which I think spoils it for you for the reasons you give. I think you'd probably agree that BG1 Quayle has more flair and flavor--and for me that makes him more enjoyable. I get where you're coming from, though, with the zany gnome stereotype. I also like characters that tend to run against type.
This highlights the discontinuity between the two characters, by the way. BG1 Quayle = obnoxious (but hilarious) twerp. BG2 Quayle = doting mensch.
Ok, I fully agree. The games' gnomes are all very colourful and funny. What bothers me a bit is that all three of them seem incapable of being taken seriously, ever... until BG2 Quayle hits the stage - complete disconitinuity as you point out. I wouldn't have had any issues obnoxious twerpish BG1 Quayle if the game had offered at least one non-stereotypical non-loony gnomish NPC besides him, megalomaniacal Tiax and mythomaniacal Jan.
Ok, I fully agree. The games' gnomes are all very colourful and funny. What bothers me a bit is that all three of them seem incapable of being taken seriously, ever... until BG2 Quayle hits the stage - complete disconitinuity as you point out. I wouldn't have had any issues obnoxious twerpish BG1 Quayle if the game had offered at least one non-stereotypical non-loony gnomish NPC besides him, megalomaniacal Tiax and mythomaniacal Jan.
What are you on about? If there is one serious NPC in Baldur's Gate it's Jan Jansen!
Turnips and monkeys, what's not serious about those? I feel that you're all so blinded by his amazing looks that you don't understand his personality. Jan Jansen is as serious as they get, right up there with Minsc and Korgan!
Exactly, Jan is dead serious. That's what makes people question his sanity, and ridicule him. If he were rather someone who pulls pranks all the time (like he does once with Minsc and Boo) instead of telling stories no one believes but Jan himself, it would be different. Anyway I love Jan as he is, I really do. And not just for being a handsome devil (as you correctly point out).
Quayle - I was never clear--is this supposed to be the same Quayle from BG1? He is totally incongruous with BG1 Quayle. This is a fail, although not a major one. It just doesn't feel anything like the character from BG1.
He is the same, because they show his BG1 picture while he's in the slime form.
The game explains his apparent change in personality by saying that his time spent with Aerie "changed" him. What makes this explanation so implausible is that not nearly enough time has passed between BG1 and BG2 to allow such a drastic change to have happened.
Didn't somebody here have a theory about time travel? Maybe...maybe BG II Faldorn and Quayle are DOPPELGANGERS! :O!
Of course. It's the only logical explanation!
The basic problem is, as said before, not nearly enough time has passed between BG1 and 2 for him to have grown so much older and wiser. He's obviously known Aerie for a far longer time than he could possibly have known you too, since we're talking years most likely.
But we also know he has some connection to the Sigil Troupe; Raelis mentions having met when he was young, which shocks Aerie as she obviously can't imagine a young Uncle Quayle, like the one you encounter in BG1. So, best guess, some weird extra-planar hijinx has gone on. There may in fact be two Quayles around the sword coast right now. If they touch each other it'll cause a chain reaction that'll destroy the universe... or maybe that only happens in movies. Who knows.
Imoen - I guess I can live with her becoming more angst-ridden, and the murky metaphysical Bhaal essence soul stuff. But I personally liked her a whole lot better as a chipper pure Thief. And I know she duals well to Mage. I know. I still don't like her that way, i.e., as a spellcaster. I realize I'm probably in the minority there.
Same, I would've preferred to keep her as a thief (even if only for a few levels) but alas, the plot hinged on her (which I feel is another mistake). I find her annoyingly whiny in BG2, even though I get their intention to show how traumatised she is. In ToB she sort-of gets back to where she was, which I like a lot more.
Jaheira - I'm not a fan of romances in the BG series. So while she has a lot to offer in that regard, it's not a major draw for me. I guess her quest is pretty good (though I've rarely had her in the BG2 party and can't remember much about it anymore). Honestly, I liked her much better paired with Khalid, as it felt to me like their personalities sort of resonated with, and enhanced, one another. Khalid - I know he has to die as a plot device for the Jaheira romance, but I actually liked Khalid a lot. I sort of missed him in BG2. I would have loved to see him develop into a Fighter-Mage with an additional tome or something (he was originally conceived as a F/M, I believe. He'd be multi-classed but same idea as if he'd dualed?)
I originally never cared for Khalid, but going through BG1 again last year really reversed my opinion. I'm actually quite saddened that he's dead in BG2 now. I get that they wanted to add some drama and free up Jaheira (both for romance and because grouped NPC's got killed off) but still. I wouldn't mind a mod that re-added him. It doesn't even have to be a very complicated mod, in the first conversation the player could choose between the original "Is he...dead?" and "I think he's still alive!" to write the canon. Sort of how Knights of the Old Republic 2 had a conversation about KotOR1 where your conversation options decided how the previous game went. Totally doable.
Xzar and Monty - Okay, this is actually the biggest fail now that I think of it. What were they thinking?
These I seriously missed the most in BG2. I loved them in BG1 and they're actually IN BG2. It'd be such a tiny thing to add them as NPC's again. To add drama, Jaheira would make you choose; help the Harpers or help Xzar and Montaron. Whoever you don't pick, you need to fight. It'd be all dramatic and allow for some actual evil decision making! If only!
Dynaheir dying adds character depth to Minsc (going from the depth of a puddle to the depth of a shallow creek, huzzah) and he's funnier when he's flying solo, so I don't mind that much. Edwin is spot on, though I would've liked him to be *somewhat* more serious. I mean, in the end he's a massively powerful Conjurer who has inhuman amounts of intellect. But he keeps being the same buttmonkey, which is a bit unfortunate.
I think the biggest NPC wtf in the sequel though, is Tazok. I mean, whut? Why? How? Why again (in and out of game why)?
- a starting premise: all appearances of bg1 npcs are erased from bg2 and the starting dungeon presents you with your original party
- if necessary, their roles in the game are filled with other characters (so for example, instead of viconia you encounter some other woman at the pyre OR viconia gets captured at some point in athkatla, gets taken from your party and you go to the pyre to rescue her)
- edwin's appearance and role in bg2 is preserved and made continous with him not leaving your party. if he didn't make his way to amn with you, your overseer for that part of the shadow thieves quest is just some guy, mage or not.
- faldorn departs soon after escaping the dungeon and her role in the trademeet quest is preserved. she doesn't die in the duel; the shadow druids scatter; you can save her from the judgement of regular druids and have her join you. if you do so cernd won't join. (needs a moderate amount of additional dialogue, but it's a reasonable and relatively non-invasive solution)
- if you have both montaron and xzar, their role in the harper's hold quest activates as following: montaron goes missing one night during rest in athkatla; xzar tell you about what they've been up to and asks you for help all while remaining in the party; if you react quickly you can save montaron from the harpers (involves violence); if jaheira is present she turns hostile and the questline ends * the original non-violent solution (one that spells doom for xzar and montaron) remains * if you don't have both montaron and xzar, this stage of the harper's hold questline is replaced with a completely new quest.
- khalid has to remain dead. no way around that imho.
- dynaheir remains dead/missing too.
- a small amount of banter is written for every newly introduced npc from bg1
- if you have both montaron and xzar, their role in the harper's hold quest activates as following: montaron goes missing one night during rest in athkatla; xzar tell you about what they've been up to and asks you for help all while remaining in the party; if you react quickly you can save montaron from the harpers (involves violence); if jaheira is present she turns hostile and the questline ends * the original non-violent solution (one that spells doom for xzar and montaron) remains * if you don't have both montaron and xzar, this stage of the harper's hold questline is replaced with a completely new quest.
I've always thought that a good idea for adding Xzar as a joinable NPC in BG2 would've been to have his quest play out exactly the same way, up to and including when he is "killed" - but then after the assassin disappears, the real Xzar steps out of the shadows and explains that the person who was just killed was actually some sort of clone, mirror image, impersonator, etc. that he had created to divert the harpers. Now that the harpers have left the compound, mistakenly believing that Xzar is dead, Xzar explains that it is now safe to return and retrieve Montaron's real body. Once you get the body, Xzar directs you to bring it to a cleric to have it raised (or maybe Xzar already has some spell or item on him that can raise the dead?), and then once that's done, you can have both Xzar and Montaron in your party for the remainder of the game.
But we also know he has some connection to the Sigil Troupe; Raelis mentions having met when he was young, which shocks Aerie as she obviously can't imagine a young Uncle Quayle, like the one you encounter in BG1. So, best guess, some weird extra-planar hijinx has gone on. There may in fact be two Quayles around the sword coast right now. If they touch each other it'll cause a chain reaction that'll destroy the universe... or maybe that only happens in movies. Who knows.
Incidentally, this raises another inconsistency between the BG1 and BG2 versions of Quayle - not only are their personalities completely different, but so are their entire backgrounds it seems.
The BG1 Quayle reportedly wanders aimlessly along the Sword Coast, ruffling feathers and alienating people wherever he goes, and hoping to convince people that he's some sort of genius. The BG2 Quayle actually is a genius, and not only that, apparently some sort of sophisticated time/space traveler as well (funny, but his BG1 bio somehow "forgets" to mention something as trivial as visiting the Outer Planes). BG2 portrays Quayle as though he's the second coming of Elminster.
The Garrick cameo is quite funny but I think it's a bit unfair to his character. As far as I recall nothing in BG1 suggested he was so clueless, the guy has 14 Wisdom after all, on par with Xan and Rasaad.
The Garrick cameo is quite funny but I think it's a bit unfair to his character. As far as I recall nothing in BG1 suggested he was so clueless, the guy has 14 Wisdom after all, on par with Xan and Rasaad.
The guy worked for Silke, clueless is his second name.
Perhaps. With regards to Silke, he does say that the witch had it coming. It's not like a Chaotic Neutral working for an evil mistress is unknown. I'd say he probably knew she was shady, just not to the point of murdering people. Are all Good aligned NPCs clueless for following an evil Charname around?
Naivete is one thing, but BG2 turns him into a skirt-chasing Biff the Understudy. I think it's a bit of a disservice.
Pardon me, but skirt-chasing?? The good lad fell head over heels in love with elegant, gracious (and curvy!) Lady Irlana; who wouldn't? His desperate attempts at conquering the Lady's heart only demonstrate how anxious he was, but that's what truly loving a Lady may do to a man.
Comments
As it stands we only have three playable gnomes (all males btw) in the trilogy and they they're all bizarre and easy to ridicule. Even various non-playable gnomes are pretty insane: think Mutamin, Kalah, Neb. (I guess the Mirrorshades are pretty cool though.) It would have been great if callow, young, naive CHARNAME could meet mature, affable, diplomatic but frivolous (Chaotic Neutral) BG2-style Quayle at the Nashkel Carnival and travel with him.
Oh well the good thing is it inspires me to play gnomish CHARNAMES who don't match the stereotype of the (borderline) lunatic freak.
*Starts game to roll a cute, cheerful, humble yet capable gnomish lass.*
Right from the beginning, the game presumes that you finished with a "canon" party that's heavily biased toward a good-aligned Charname.
Memorable NPCs like Kivan, Shar-Teel, Safana, and Xzar are either altogether absent or killed off in brief cameos.
Instead of a cheery, upbeat thief, Imoen has now become a whiny, pessimistic mage, whose thieving skills are distributed in a manner that I would never have distributed them.
Dynaheir was one of my favorite BG1 NPCs, whereas Minsc was one of my least favorite (I usually let him get killed at some point, or refuse to let him in so that he attacks me and I can have an excuse to kill him) - so you can imagine how frustrated I was by the game's "canon" beginning.
Admittedly, the makers of BG2 did improve on the backgrounds and personalities of many of the returning NPCs, like Jaheira, Viconia, and even Minsc. However, I feel that they dropped the ball by not bringing back more BG1 NPCs, especially ones like Dynaheir and Shar-Teel, whose backgrounds were somewhat shrouded in mystery and open to a lot more development.
For my upcoming playthrough of BG2, I plan on using @Vasculio's multiplayer method to import Dynaheir into BG2, then overriding Minsc's character file with something like a rat or a dead body, so I never have to hear him mention anything about Dynaheir being dead. ;-)
At the very least, the cameos should've been more like Garrick's or Quayle's, where they didn't end with the character being killed.
The game explains his apparent change in personality by saying that his time spent with Aerie "changed" him. What makes this explanation so implausible is that not nearly enough time has passed between BG1 and BG2 to allow such a drastic change to have happened.
Or maybe, uhh, she and Eldoth came across Shar-Teel, Shar-Teel left Eldoth a dismembered heap, and left Skie alone. And then Skie's weapon happened to the best warrior later.
Didn't somebody here have a theory about time travel?
Maybe...maybe BG II Faldorn and Quayle are DOPPELGANGERS! :O!
This highlights the discontinuity between the two characters, by the way. BG1 Quayle = obnoxious (but hilarious) twerp. BG2 Quayle = doting mensch.
Turnips and monkeys, what's not serious about those? I feel that you're all so blinded by his amazing looks that you don't understand his personality. Jan Jansen is as serious as they get, right up there with Minsc and Korgan!
Anyway I love Jan as he is, I really do. And not just for being a handsome devil (as you correctly point out).
The basic problem is, as said before, not nearly enough time has passed between BG1 and 2 for him to have grown so much older and wiser. He's obviously known Aerie for a far longer time than he could possibly have known you too, since we're talking years most likely.
But we also know he has some connection to the Sigil Troupe; Raelis mentions having met when he was young, which shocks Aerie as she obviously can't imagine a young Uncle Quayle, like the one you encounter in BG1. So, best guess, some weird extra-planar hijinx has gone on. There may in fact be two Quayles around the sword coast right now. If they touch each other it'll cause a chain reaction that'll destroy the universe... or maybe that only happens in movies. Who knows.
I get that they wanted to add some drama and free up Jaheira (both for romance and because grouped NPC's got killed off) but still. I wouldn't mind a mod that re-added him. It doesn't even have to be a very complicated mod, in the first conversation the player could choose between the original "Is he...dead?" and "I think he's still alive!" to write the canon. Sort of how Knights of the Old Republic 2 had a conversation about KotOR1 where your conversation options decided how the previous game went. Totally doable. These I seriously missed the most in BG2. I loved them in BG1 and they're actually IN BG2. It'd be such a tiny thing to add them as NPC's again. To add drama, Jaheira would make you choose; help the Harpers or
help Xzar and Montaron. Whoever you don't pick, you need to fight. It'd be all dramatic and allow for some actual evil decision making!
If only!
Dynaheir dying adds character depth to Minsc (going from the depth of a puddle to the depth of a shallow creek, huzzah) and he's funnier when he's flying solo, so I don't mind that much.
Edwin is spot on, though I would've liked him to be *somewhat* more serious. I mean, in the end he's a massively powerful Conjurer who has inhuman amounts of intellect. But he keeps being the same buttmonkey, which is a bit unfortunate.
I think the biggest NPC wtf in the sequel though, is Tazok. I mean, whut? Why? How? Why again (in and out of game why)?
- a starting premise: all appearances of bg1 npcs are erased from bg2 and the starting dungeon presents you with your original party
- if necessary, their roles in the game are filled with other characters (so for example, instead of viconia you encounter some other woman at the pyre OR viconia gets captured at some point in athkatla, gets taken from your party and you go to the pyre to rescue her)
- edwin's appearance and role in bg2 is preserved and made continous with him not leaving your party. if he didn't make his way to amn with you, your overseer for that part of the shadow thieves quest is just some guy, mage or not.
- faldorn departs soon after escaping the dungeon and her role in the trademeet quest is preserved. she doesn't die in the duel; the shadow druids scatter; you can save her from the judgement of regular druids and have her join you. if you do so cernd won't join. (needs a moderate amount of additional dialogue, but it's a reasonable and relatively non-invasive solution)
- if you have both montaron and xzar, their role in the harper's hold quest activates as following: montaron goes missing one night during rest in athkatla; xzar tell you about what they've been up to and asks you for help all while remaining in the party; if you react quickly you can save montaron from the harpers (involves violence); if jaheira is present she turns hostile and the questline ends
* the original non-violent solution (one that spells doom for xzar and montaron) remains
* if you don't have both montaron and xzar, this stage of the harper's hold questline is replaced with a completely new quest.
- khalid has to remain dead. no way around that imho.
- dynaheir remains dead/missing too.
- a small amount of banter is written for every newly introduced npc from bg1
The BG1 Quayle reportedly wanders aimlessly along the Sword Coast, ruffling feathers and alienating people wherever he goes, and hoping to convince people that he's some sort of genius. The BG2 Quayle actually is a genius, and not only that, apparently some sort of sophisticated time/space traveler as well (funny, but his BG1 bio somehow "forgets" to mention something as trivial as visiting the Outer Planes). BG2 portrays Quayle as though he's the second coming of Elminster.
Naivete is one thing, but BG2 turns him into a skirt-chasing Biff the Understudy. I think it's a bit of a disservice.