Dwarf and 18 charisma.
SionIV
Member Posts: 2,689
If you look at it from a roleplay perspective, why wouldn't it be possible for a dwarf to have 18 charisma?
I'm thinking about creating a dwarf paladin, and the -2 charisma is kind of preventing me from doing this. Is it just a gameplay limitation or would there be a reason for a dwarf not being charismatic?
I'm thinking about creating a dwarf paladin, and the -2 charisma is kind of preventing me from doing this. Is it just a gameplay limitation or would there be a reason for a dwarf not being charismatic?
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In practice, it's suppose to balance out the dwarves bonus to constitution score. (Not that plus CON isn't so much majorly better then minus CHA that such 'balance' is ridiculous.) To me, I'd say go ahead and make your 18 charisma paladin, but in turn for 'balance' leave their con at 18 and don't boost it higher (unless you don't really care about balance, in which case, go for what you want).
I regularly make elven and halfling druids (which actually are allowed in Forgotten Realms, so beeda, Bioware) all the time. I don't think there's anything wrong with roleplaying your dwarf as having extreme force of personality and other charismatic traits very unusual for their race but there all the same. I'd allow it as a DM (though I'm not sure I'd allow a paladin- very, very, very few races are allowed to be paladins in AD&D). Besides, I think there might be at least one dwarf subrace that doesn't get the CHA penalty, but gets a penalty to DEX or something instead.
Elf : +1 DEX, -1 CON
Gnome +1 INT - 1 WIS
Half-Orc +1 STR +1 CON - 2 INT
Halfling +1 DEX - 1 STR - 1 WIS
Dwarf +1 CON - 1 DEX -2 CHA
Why is it that the gnome only gets -1 WIS and still shorty saves? And why does the dwarf trade +1 CON against -2 CHA - 1 DEX?
After some time of rolling my dwarf paladin ended up with.
18/92
17
19
9
13
18
I could also ignore the paladin requirement and put his Charisma down to 16. I'm sure that not every single paladin out there has amazing charisma.
But looking at it from a roleplay perspective i just don't see why a dwarf couldn't have 18 charisma.
There are 'good' drows out there, so why couldn't there be a dwarf that was a born leader?
btw, I think i have the book on pdf somewhere if it is of any interest to you?
[Edited] :
It's from the forgotten realms wikipedia, so not sure if it should be taken to heart or not.
"Many paladins are human or half-elves, whose sense of ambition and purpose makes the two races excellent champions of an ideal or the divine. Dwarves are in some ways, due to their cultural tradition of discipline and religious devotion, well-suited for the life of a paladin, though it means putting ideals before family and clan, which can be hard on dwarves. However, shield dwarves make uncommonly good paladins in many cases"
[Edit]
This is from the complete paladin's handbook:
According to the PH, only humans can be paladins. But, using the rules in this book,
a DM may allow paladin-like characters of other races in an AD&D® campaign. Lacking
the necessary qualities to become paladins in the truest sense, these other races are
subject to specific limitations and are known as demipaladins.
A demipaladin is a fighter/cleric who gains paladin-like powers from his deity after
completing special quests for his church. A demipaladin may be a dwarf, gnome, elf,
half-elf, or halfling. Any character desiring to become a demipaladin must be lawful good
from the character's generation and have all the ability-score requirements of paladins.
The character is allowed to gain a 10% bonus on experience in his fighter or cleric class
if his Strength or Wisdom score (respectively) is 16 or better (Charisma, of course, must
be 17 or better). The character must also adhere to all ethos requirements, such as
strictures, edicts, and so on, from the start of play.
So it would seem that a paladin of sorts IS possible for other races
This is the suggestion for a dwarf paladin:
Dwarven Forgelighter: A forgelighter devotes his life to taking back dwarven
kingdoms and cities that were lost to other races (e.g., humans, orcs, derro, etc.) by
warfare or treachery, re-establishing the colonies and defending them until they are selfsustaining
again.
Have you seen the Dwarves in the Hobbit and Gimli in Lord of the Rings? They were modeled after them.
They like to get drunk, generally lack manners so they shout, are blunt, burp and way too direct which isn't polite.
Also they're not the best at expressing themselves and don't move with grace.
All those things gives them a Charisma penalty.
And being a Drow doesn't make you less charismatic @SionIV.
Drow are elves. They are very graceful by nature, very beautiful and exotic as well and by beautiful I mean it by the generally objective way.
They have very well shaped features and bodies, beautiful and combed hair, they like to dress in revealing and elegant ways, plus they can be quite expressive with themselves.
A Dwarf can be a leader with 16 Charisma. That's above average for a PnP character.
I agree that any race should be able to become a Paladin.
That's one of ADnD's nonsense that some rationalize it as "flavor". Which I disagree.
If a Dwarf can be a Lawful Good Fighter/Cleric with 16 Cha. There's no real reason why they cannot be Paladins.
Why can't Moradin have Dwarven Paladins for example?
My opinion why only Humans can be Paladins is because otherwise, Humans would have nothing special for them. With that restriction, they have a special class just for them.
...And Earth Genasi are pretty rough spoken and not the most charming beings around. So, I don't know.
Maybe Paladinhood is something Dwarf adolescents go through before they understand how the world really works, like modernday students and political activism.
Drizzt being good has nothing to do with it.
Drizzt isn't very charismatic either, his 3E stats are: Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14.
Like I said, a Dwarf can be charismatic with 16 charisma. That's 2 points below the maximum.
They just can't be as charismatic as humans because their appearance, personalities and culture holds them back.
Not sure about ADnD but 3E has the Gold Dwarves subrace which are basically the "merchant and noble" dwarves instead of the "gruff and mining" Dwarf (stereo)types.
Those get a -2 to DEX instead so they can be as charismatic as Humans.
I mean even Sarevok has only 15 CHA and he's considered quite charismatic. He was popular and run for Grand Duke.
Drizzt is a GOOD ALIGNMENT drow.
It's obviously very RARE and not very likely to find a dwarf paladin with high charisma. Just as it is unlikely to find a good alignment drow, demon, or undead.
This has nothing to do with Drizzt or anyone elses charisma. The reason i used Drizzt for the argument is that drows are evil by nature, and it's rare to the point of mary sue to find a good alignment drow. But if good alignment drow do exist, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some very charismatic dwarfs out there.
...I still don't understand your points.
It's rare, yes. Though certainly possible and Dwarves can be charismatic, more charismatic than Sarevok even, stat-wise.
And your other question was "why can't dwarves have 18 charisma?" because of the reasons I pointed out.
The same reason a halfling can't have 19 STR or a human 19 DEX. Because of physiological and other reasons.
Dwarves are just not AS charismatic by nature.
A halfling will never be as strong as a half-orc.
A dwarf will never be as agile as an elf.
But there is nothing that says a dwarf/halfling/gnome/anything can't be more charismatic, intelligent or wise.
Later editions change things radically. Some people actually object to that.
...I'm not sure I'm following. Or you just cannot accept the flavor behind it.
No matter how much it tries a dwarf will never be as graceful or charming or beautiful or elegant as an elf.
And the rules and flavor says that Dwarves can't be as charismatic as a really charismatic elf or whatever.
Some rare dwarves can be more charismatic than a human or elf (16 CHA vs 10 CHA) but flavor and rule-wise, a dwarf won't be more charismatic than a really charismatic human or elf (16 CHA vs 18 CHA).
And Half-Orcs get an INT penalty because of their Orcish blood. Orcs aren't as mentally developed as other races. They're animalistic and savages.
A Halfling getting a WIS penalty (in ADnD) is because they're impatient and they're not considered wise. They're more tricksters, playful, childish perhaps, impatient and carefree by nature.
Also a Half-Orc can get 16 INT. That's still quite intelligent, more than the average person.
Some dwarves in the Hobbit movie look very handsome. Kili/Fili and Thorin actually look very sexy, err, if you're into hair+beard thing and stuff. (apparently one female elven fighter likes her men hairy in the second movie, lol) They have near maximum CHA for a dwarf. But they are the best of the stock, they have the royal blood. Other dwarves look comical and are like charicatures, with pot bellies, huge noses, ugly faces, etc. They sure have less than average charisma.
If you are cheating to make a dwarf a paladin you can cheat to give him 17 charisma. Big deal.
Just don't name yourself Balin. We all know how well that ended..