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[MOD][BETA] Tome and Blood: More Options for Wizards and Sorcerers

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Comments

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 958
    @Endarire , ummm I know we talked about it at some point, but IDK if we ever implemented it... I don't think we did. @subtledoctor ?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    Endarire wrote: »
    Does this mod allow spontaneous casters to swap their spells known every X levels? If so, which classes and when?
    Aquadrizzt wrote: »
    I know we talked about it at some point, but IDK if we ever implemented it... I don't think we did.

    Nope. It would mean doing a whole dialogue thing, which I do not have the time for. And I don't think it would end up really adding much value.

  • EndarireEndarire Member Posts: 223
    edited November 2019
    Thankee. The 'Arcane Bloodline' helps make up for the lack of spell swapping by granting us more spells known that we want anyway, leaving more room for more niche spells.

  • EndarireEndarire Member Posts: 223
    Do class-based cast speed penalties only apply in combat? Prebuffing takes long enough already.

  • EndarireEndarire Member Posts: 223
    I'd also like innate familiar functionality with the Warlock mod if such is viable.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    Quick heads-up: I have updated my fork of TnB to version 0.8.40.

    The major changes in this version involve shifting the component order around a bit. Basically I just moved up the Revised Specialists component to install before the arcane crafting and innate sequencers stuff, per the recommendation of @BlackTalons a few pages back. While I was in there moving things around, I decided to completely reorgnize the DESIGNATED component numbers, to reflect the new install order and to match their TRA strings, because I can be a bit compulsive about that stuff. Apologies to anyone using this via BWS-derived programs... I know they do not cope well with changing DESIGNATED numbers. If you use such a program, you're probably going to have to ask Roxanne to update it. But I think it's worth it in the long run, and maybe this will be the last time such a change is made. (Hopefully?)

    This also makes a very small tweak to the multiclass sorcerers component, which you should not notice at all, but will enable some fun new stuff over in the Faiths & Powers mod. You can read more about it over there. Please be aware, that fun new FnP stuff requires TnB v0.8.40 or higher to work.

    Cheers.

    ArthasThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    First of all, thanks for the new version.

    Apologize if I ask, but if I go for Ability Score Bonus inside Tome of Battle I should be fine without having to install the one from scales of balance, or do I remember wrong?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    Arthas wrote: »
    if I go for Ability Score Bonus inside Tome of Battle I should be fine without having to install the one from scales of balance, or do I remember wrong?

    They do different things. TnB = bonus spell slots, SoB = other stuff. install both, either, none. Whatever you like.

    Arthas
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    Got it. Please merge both. Thanks for answering.

  • GawainBSGawainBS Member Posts: 512
    I agree. Why not merging them?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    Arthas wrote: »
    Got it. Please merge both.

    Uh, no?

    They are different mods. They do different things. One is focused on arcane spellcasters, the other is focused on more fundamental game tweaks. They were created and published by two different modders.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    Moving on: I'd like to do something with familiars. I have two thoughts:

    1) Let the player choose which familiar they want. This thing about it being determined by alignment is silly.

    2) As long as you are going to choose one, why not make it a meaningful choice? So I propose differentiating each familiar a bit more, giving each one a small but distinctive utility. Something like:

    - Pseudodragon: powers over the body - cast Drowse (single-target Sleep) and Cure Light Wounds
    - Fairy dragon: powers over light - cast Color Spray and Invisibility
    - Ferret: larcenous - excellent pickpocket, and ...?
    - Rabbit: wary - excellent at finding traps, and ...?
    - Cat: scout - excellent at stealth, and undetectable (and backstab?)
    - Imp: control freak - cast single-target Hold, and ...?
    - Mephit: mess-maker - cast Grease, and infect wounds on hit (weakness and chance of spell failure)
    - Quasit: troublemaker - cast Rigid Thinking, and ...?

    The idea is, the familiar can be good in one area, to give you a little bit of benefit and some reason to have them outside and acting for you, instead of in your pack. So, any thoughts on how to fill out those abilities? Would you change any of them? Any thoughts?

    KamigoroshiThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,311
    Maybe that train of thought could futher be simplyfied by making familiars into a limited spell sequencer storage device for one spell of the spellcaster's personal choosing? The amount of stored spell may or may not then increase with higher levels. Kind of like the Witch in Pathfinder, who basically uses her familar as a living spellbook.

  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    I find the idea of a familiar very weird in the context of BG. No matter how much thought one puts into them, they are simply odd.

    1) The loss of constitution if you lose a familiar is disgusting.
    2) The bonus hp is 99% of the reason everyone uses them
    3) They are mostly useful in BG1, but they rapidly lose their usefullness.

    I think that one way one could improve them is simply by making them level up together with you to never be "useless".
    But there is always a matter of consistency when you write about these familiars having these powers: why is no one using them like that? And also... the few familiars you meet should share these abilities.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    edited November 2019
    Maybe that train of thought could futher be simplyfied by making familiars into a limited spell sequencer storage device

    That's a separate conversation :wink: This is about "choose-your-own familiar" and how to make that choice meaningful.

    "Imbue familiar" is going to happen after this.
    Arthas wrote: »
    1) The loss of constitution if you lose a familiar is disgusting.
    2) The bonus hp is 99% of the reason everyone uses them
    3) They are mostly useful in BG1, but they rapidly lose their usefullness.

    Also a separate conversation, because addressing that will also be a separate component ("indelible familiars").

    For now I'm just curious about what people think imps and quasits and ferrets should be able to do that will make them slightly more useful than they are now.

    Ultimately the point will be to improve familiars in many ways:
    - cast FF innately without using a spell slot
    - choose which familiar you get
    - make that choice meaningful by giving each familiar distinct utility
    - no penalty for losing a familiar, so if it “dies” you can just re-summon it the next day
    - let the player “give” spell slots to the familiar, so the familiar can cast more spells

    So like, you could teach your familiar Stoneskin and Fireball, and it could be out in the battle blasting your enemies along with you. And if it gets killed, you can re-summon it the next day.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Arthas
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,311
    Imp & quasit: chances to mildly poison enemies on hit for a short amount of time. (Both of them have stingers. No reason not to use them.)

    Ferret: foul odor, spell-like ability which afflicts sickening to individuals within a small range for 1 round. (Yes, they do stink that much.)

    subtledoctor
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    edited November 2019
    Ferret: foul odor, spell-like ability which afflicts sickening to individuals within a small range for 1 round. (Yes, they do stink that much.)

    Love this. Mechanics-wise, maybe just use the existing 'nauseated' condition in the game? (I forget, is that what Ghouls can cause?) Or, maybe use the conditions imposed by the Spell Revisions version of Stinking Cloud, I always liked that implementation of the spell. I think it involves complete spellcasting failure... so maybe something like, if hit by the ferret, you have to save vs. death/poison or have no attacks and no spellcasting for 1 round while you retch and gag. Or, you suggest it as a small-AoE aura instead of on-hit? That is doable as well. That could be quite interesting.

    As for imps/quasits, I don't love the idea of poison damage, it tends to be OP. (Unless it only lasts 1 round, in which case the consequences for spellcasters would be equal to that of the ferret.)

    I just found a "Let's Read" thread on this, which I generally love. And man, 2E imps were crazy OP. The poison from their tail attack is save or die (!); they can fly over Grease/Entangle/Web; they can polymorph into animals; and they can turn invisible at will. And they are immune to fire/cold/lightning damage, and have the saving throws of a creature more than triple their hit dice.

    Uh, wut?

    And the cherry on top: as a familiar, their master gets 25% MR and regenerates 1hp/round.

    The quasit's poison lowers DEX, and it has a fear aura. That seems wrong to me; the quasit should have a chaos (confusion) aura, and the imp should have a fear aura. (I mean, I'm scared of them! Look at those stats!)

    The 25% MR and regen is just stupid, but it raises the prospect of a wizard getting a passive bonus from the familiar besides just hit points. That's a cool idea, if properly balanced. So maybe something like:

    Pseudodragon:
    - cast Sleep (or Drowse)
    - cast Cure Light Wounds
    - flying: immune to Grease/Entangle/Web
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: 1 hp/round regen

    Fairy Dragon:
    - cast color spray,
    - can turn improved invisible
    - flying: immune to Grease/Entangle/Web
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: immune to blindness...?

    Rabbit:
    - high find traps skill
    - burrowing: can escape danger by use of something like the Shadowstep ability
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: -1 casting speed...? or maybe, immune to Slow...?

    Cat:
    - high hide in shadows/move silent skill
    - inherently Nondetectable (as the spell)
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: +1 DEX

    Ferret:
    - high pick pockets skill
    - small-AoE nauseating aura
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: +1 CON

    Spider:
    - cast single-target Web
    - immune to Web
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: extra chance to resist poison effects
    Imp:
    - cast polymorph self? should we keep this?
    - on hit, poison does 3 hp damage over 1 round
    - 75% fire resistance (90%? 100%?)
    - flying: immune to Grease/Entangle/Web
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: +1 INT

    Dust Mud Mephit:
    - cast Grease (the normal spell)
    - small-AoE Grease aura (specifically the SR version, where you can slip and fall down)
    - ...~75% crushing resistance?
    - flying: immune to Grease/Entangle/Web
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: ...?

    Quasit:
    - cast rigid thinking
    - small-AoE fear aura
    - flying: immune to Grease/Entangle/Web
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: immune to confusion...?
    - 2-point reputation penalty

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Djinn
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,311
    edited November 2019
    I do believe outsider familiars should be more potent than mundane animals. They are bonafide fiends after all. But maybe that's just me. Overall, I'd also give each familiar a disadvantage as well. Especially if those familiars are mostly outside the bag. Surely enough that should make for more interactions between master and familiar.

    Pseudodragon:
    - Hoarder: Occasionally steals gold from its master for its own miniature hoard.

    Fairy Dragon:
    - Prankster: Occasionally pranks its master by hiding enemy drops.

    Rabbit:
    - Burrow: Can quickly create underground burrows to escape certain doom. (Basically a tiny Dimension Portal without the magical flair)
    - Weak Hearted: higher chance for Morale Failure

    Cat:
    - Nocturnal: Sleeps throughout most of the day. (Ever had a cat? They sleep for 16 hours straight!)

    Ferret:
    - Destroyer: Chances to destroy a random item when stuck inside the bag for too long.

    Imp:
    - Fiend: Party reputation drops inside human settlements when witnessed by others.

    Dust Mephit:
    - Dust Cloud: small AoE Dust Aura, causing creatures with lungs to cough uncontrollable for as long as the cloud persists.
    - Dusty Air: Slightly decreases the field of vision for the party.
    (The whole grease theme is truthfully a better fit for mud mephits. The quasielement of dust mephits is far less "wet".)

    Quasit:
    - Fiend: Party reputation drops inside human settlements when witnessed by others.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    edited November 2019
    I do believe outsider familiars should be more potent than mundane animals. They are bonafide fiends after all.

    Well, it depends on the edition and your interpretation of the cosmology. Personally, I take Planescape to be the definitive canon when it comes to extra-planar lore. And there, imps are not part of the baatezu ecosystem that ranges from nupperibos to pit fiends. They are more like mephits - small helpers and messengers. Thinking about this, especially given they have average/high intelligence, it strikes me that they might not be pure beings of sheer Evil like the baatezu are. Maybe they are more individualistic, but pressed into service by the fiends? Of course maybe they have a natural nasty streak... but I think there's room for players to roleplay an imp familiar in a lot of ways.

    Then again, why would an intelligent, tough (twice as tough as the average human) creature like an imp bow before a simple human mage anyway? It's a role traditionally for animals and animal-like creatures - sounds like it's beneath an imp. I know there is the idea that the familiar is really controlling the wizard... but honestly there's not much room for that kind of role-playing in these games.

    Let's change gears and think about that dust mephit. Why is a dust mephit, and only a dust mephit, available as a familiar? If mephits are amenable to such a role, why not air mephits, or earth mephits, or magma mephits, etc.? It's weird.

    Further, the Bell of Lost Souls has this interesting characterization: "Mephits ... are imps that are created from elemental substances like fire, ice, lava, mist, smoke, and steam."

    Emphasis mine. Are mephits just varieties of imps? Are quasits as well? What exactly is this life form? And why are these particular three versions available as familiars?

    I think maybe we don't need all three. Or we need more than just those three. I'm leaning toward eliminating the very intelligent imp, and replacing it with a spider familiar. And then, maybe, depending on free time, expanding the mephit option so you can have one of a variety of mephits, instead of only a dust mephit.
    Dust Mephit:
    - Dust Cloud: small AoE Dust Aura, causing creatures with lungs to cough uncontrollable for as long as the cloud persists.
    - Dusty Air: Slightly decreases the field of vision for the party.
    (The whole grease theme is truthfully a better fit for mud mephits. The quasielement of dust mephits is far less "wet".)

    I hear you. I think the Dust Aura overlaps too much with the Ferret's nauseating aura, as far as how it would work in this game. The reduced field of vision thing could be interesting - could use something like SR's Obscuring Mist or whatever they call that spell. But OTOH could also just switch it from a dust mephit to a mud mephit.

    EDIT - I like the idea of a rep drop for the imp/quasit. Makes complete sense and could be useful for players in an evil run struggling to control their rep to keep Viconia/Dorn/etc.

    Also I really like the 'burrowing' idea for the rabbit. Maybe just give it the Shadostep ability? (Then you have a more visual idea of where it is 'burrowing.'

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    ArthasKamigoroshi
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    I don't know why but the thought of having a giant spider familiar that actually improves in size with levels made me think about roleplaying a shadow druid. Would be cool if I could upgrade it when I get control of the grove.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,311
    I don't see much of an issue there myself. Imps were always baatezu in AD&D second edition PnP, quasits in turn tanar'ri. Distinctive enough for me. As far as Planescape books goes mephits were descriped as imp-like in apperance. Not as straight-up, reskinned imps themselves. Again, works for me.

    Personally I'd remove the pseudodragon, fairy dragon, imp, dust mephit and quasit from the starter familiars altogether. To level the field a bit. The outsiders and dragon-like magical beasts could then be reintroduced as a higher "tier". Maybe for level 12 arcane casters or as HLA's later on. That way mages could actually choose which kind of elemental, para-elemental or quasi-elemental mephit they want without cluttering up the mundane animal familiars.

    In place for the old supernatural familiars I could imagine the following:

    LG: Dog
    NG: Chicken
    CG: Squirrel
    LE: Rat
    NE: Spider
    CE: Snake

    Djinn
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,035
    What about having different familiars giving different passive bonuses beyond/instead of hp boosts? Like small boosts to a saving throw, or some very mild regen.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    edited November 2019
    Arthas wrote: »
    I don't know why but the thought of having a giant spider familiar that actually improves in size with levels made me think about roleplaying a shadow druid. Would be cool if I could upgrade it when I get control of the grove.

    Just FYI I will not ever make a mod where you familiar that grows alongside you, gaining "levels' or stuff like that. There are animal companion mods for that sort of thing. These familiars will be exactly like the original ones, except with tweaked abilities, and more player choice, and maybe some new ways to interact with them.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    What about having different familiars giving different passive bonuses beyond/instead of hp boosts? Like small boosts to a saving throw, or some very mild regen.

    Yup. I've updated the post a little ways up to include some ideas for that.
    I don't see much of an issue there myself. Imps were always baatezu in AD&D second edition PnP, quasits in turn tanar'ri.

    There is conflicting information in 2E, and I think in Planescape imps and quasits were not in fact truly among the ranks of baatezu and tanar'ri. I could be wrong, but that's my recollection. And frankly, if they are, then I think they would be wholly inappropriate as familiars. Actual fiends? Demons from the afterlife, hopping around helping some human mage in his quest to loot this or that dungeon? Doesn't make sense to me.
    Personally I'd remove the pseudodragon, fairy dragon, imp, dust mephit and quasit from the starter familiars altogether.

    That's quite reasonable. But the spell is still hard-coded and there are only two versions that I can see in the files: 1) "fam___.cre" are the basic familiar files, they are different in BG1 and BG2, but if someone is playing EET they will only have the BG2 version. 2) "fam___25.cre" are the TOB versions.

    There are only 8 possible familiars to choose. Keep in mind I want this to be compatible with the "indelible familiars" component that I'm working on alongside this. That will let you freely re-summon your familiar after it dies; if the familiar creatures are different between the main campaign and TOB (or between BG1 and BG2 and TOB) then you won't be able to re-summon your own old familiar, you will get a totally different one instead. That strikes me as violating one of the core ideas of this spell, which is that your familiar is your familiar for life.
    In place for the old supernatural familiars I could imagine the following:

    LG: Dog
    NG: Chicken
    CG: Squirrel
    LE: Rat
    NE: Spider
    CE: Snake

    Also just a reminder, there will be no need to tie these things to alignment. The player will be able to choose freely from among 8 creatures.

    I suppose the pseudodragon and fairy dragon are kind of duplicative. And if we don't want actual fiends to waste their time with mortal adventurers, then we can cut out the imp and quasit. Then maybe the list could look something like:
    - dog
    - cat
    - rat
    - ferret
    - rabbit
    - spider
    (There is no small snake animation we can use.) Not sure what the dog's abilities might be, maybe just bigger and stronger than the others?

    And then maybe for a little exotic flair, offer only two more supernatural options:
    - pseudodragon
    - mephit

    And the mephit could maybe (maybe!) have an innate ability that lets you choose its native element (fire/ice/earth/air/mud/dust/lightning).

    Djinn
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,311
    edited November 2019
    There is conflicting information in 2E, and I think in Planescape imps and quasits were not in fact truly among the ranks of baatezu and tanar'ri. I could be wrong, but that's my recollection. And frankly, if they are, then I think they would be wholly inappropriate as familiars. Actual fiends? Demons from the afterlife, hopping around helping some human mage in his quest to loot this or that dungeon? Doesn't make sense to me.
    That's pretty much their described job in Planescape: lend a "helping" hand to morsels, slowly corrupt them and drag their souls into their respective planes to create new manes/dregs. Both sides are always eager to replendish the cannon fodder for the Blood War. The war coffers won't fill on their own even in the afterlife.
    And the mephit could maybe (maybe!) have an innate ability that lets you choose its native element (fire/ice/earth/air/mud/dust/lightning).
    That will be a tall order. Given the sheer amount of mephits out there in the Great Wheel:
    Elemental: Air, Fire, Earth, Water
    Para-Elemental: Smoke, Ooze, Ice, Magma
    "Positive" Quasi-Elemental: Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Steam
    "Negative" Quasi-Elemental: Vacuum, Dust, Ash, Salt

    Also, that mud mephit we talked about? Looks like that was a creation of the 5th edition. My bad. No biggy tho, we just have to rename it to ooze mephit instead. Given that the Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze is a mix between earth and water.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    That's pretty much their described job in Planescape: lend a "helping" hand to morsels, slowly corrupt them and drag their souls into their respective planes to create new manes/dregs. Both sides are always eager to replendish the cannon fodder for the Blood War. The war coffers won't fill on their own even in the afterlife.

    ...Which makes for fun and interesting shenanigans in a PnP campaign... but really has no place in BG/BG2.
    And the mephit could maybe (maybe!) have an innate ability that lets you choose its native element (fire/ice/earth/air/mud/dust/lightning).
    That will be a tall order. Given the sheer amount of mephits out there in the Great Wheel:[/quote]

    Well, the base game offers only one mephit, and a pretty random one at that. (Why dust??) I feel like we could make 5-6 and even if incomplete, it would still be a major increase in player choice.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,035
    Looks like multiclass sorcerors failed to install due to errors.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,463
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Looks like multiclass sorcerors failed to install due to errors.

    Some kind of mod conflict? What was the actual error?

    Also, TnB should be installed before FnP - with the new expanded multiclass sorcerers, this is really important. Maybe try uninstalling FnP and doing TnB first, and see if there is still an error.

    ThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,311
    edited November 2019
    Some more random thoughts about those shiny new animal familiars:

    Dog:
    - Smell: Can detect invisible enemies
    - Bellowing: sound attack with possibility to afflict deafness for 1 round
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - Medium: No AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: none

    Rat:
    - Plague Carrier: Chances to afflict the diseased status on hit for 1 round
    - Swarm: summons weak (level 1?) rats to fight alongside with
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - tiny: 6-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: hardiness against becoming diseased?


    Edit: And as a bonus:

    Chicken: (because who wouldn't want to have a chicken familiar?!)
    - Crowing: wakes up any sleeping creatures in reach, be it friend or foe
    - Flying: immune to Grease/Entangle/Web
    - can be strengthened by FnP Magic Fang/Animal Growth spells
    - small: 4-point AC bonus vs. missiles
    - owner passive bonus: hardiness against sleep

    Post edited by Kamigoroshi on
    Djinn
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,035
    edited November 2019
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Looks like multiclass sorcerors failed to install due to errors.

    Some kind of mod conflict? What was the actual error?

    Also, TnB should be installed before FnP - with the new expanded multiclass sorcerers, this is really important. Maybe try uninstalling FnP and doing TnB first, and see if there is still an error.

    Nope, component still fails. There shouldn't be any conflicts unless a new update broke something. I haven't added any new mods or changed my install order.

    Unix.Unix_error(20, "stat", "might_and_guile/lib/d5_base.spl")

    Why would it be trying to read something from MIght and Guile? Isn't that supposed to be the last kit mod before FnP multiclass?

    Post edited by ThacoBell on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,035
    I got it to install with some fiddling. It would only work if I did Tome minus the multi sorcs, then faiths, then might and guile, then the multi sorcs, then the Faiths multiclasses.

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