Let's Talk About Strength
dustbubsy
Member Posts: 249
I thought I could begin a weekly series here about the ability scores of NPCs in the game, comparing them with each other and seeing whether they make sense to the community, what reasoning there is behind them, and any other interesting stuff. Strength is a nice one to begin with because it's quite straightforward: a simple measure of physical might. It affects carrying capacity, what weapons the NPC can use, and whether they will get bonuses (or penalties) to hit and damage rolls.
STRENGTH Scores
8: Quayle, Alora.
The lowest score, but still not low enough for roll penalties, are represented by the two smallest races, perhaps reflecting that gnomes and halflings tend to be weaker on average. People who played the original Baldur's Gate will remember that Quayle came equipped with a weapon he was too weak to use - at 8 strength NPCs can just barely wear splint and chainmail, and wield light crossbows.
9: Imoen, Edwin (BG1), Tiax, Jan
Still on the low side of average, we have the other two gnomes here, making them the race with the lowest average strength. Still, the fact that they're all casters is probably some reason for that. Imoen's low strength is her only small downside in the stats department. At 9 strength a character can wield a mundane warhammer (there are always exceptions for magical weapons, which tend to be lighter).
10: Edwin (BG2), Viconia, Aerie
Edwin gained a little muscle mass in the sequel, his peers at 10 being two female elves, lol. 10 strength gets you battle-axes, scimitars, and maces (that's to equip and wield them effectively, not merely to carry them in your pack).
11: Mordaine, Deder, Dynaheir, Skie, Neera
Not much to say here. 11 is still around average, and the three NPCs are casters and a rogue, who don't need to work out to be effective in battle. Morning stars and bastard swords are available at 11.
12: Faldorn, Baeloth
12 I guess is the pinnacle of average. It's the benchmark to equip plate mail armour and medium shields, and wield heavy crossbows. For these reasons, I would guess it's the minimum you have to reach if you want to be a professional soldier in the Realms.
13: Branwen, Xan, Safana, Cernd
Around here we find non-combat characters who might like to get their hands dirty (though we won't be getting bonuses to rolls until we hit 16). I'm slightly surprised Xan is this high, given his very low CON suggests a frail character. Could he have had martial training as a Moonblade wielder? Flails and halberds are available at 13.
14: Xzar, Garrick, Coran, Nalia, Clara
A couple of surprises here. First, Xzar is rather burly for a caster, which I like: after all, there's no reason mages *have* to be physically weak. A bigger surprise for me is Nalia. Given how she is outclassed by Imoen in every other department, maybe the game makers wanted to give her a large (but mostly useless) strength advantage. Coran is the stereotypical finesse fighter, but his 14 strength is just enough for him to take up mighty two-handed swords. Garrick too!
15: Khalid, Jaheira, Yeslick, Mazzy
All four of these NPCs are warrior classes, and their strength is somewhat low for that role, but nevertheless 15 is the benchmark for elite warriors, as they can equip full plate mail and large shields. And in two cases, 15 is quite high for the NPC's backgrounds: Yeslick struck me as being slightly old and past his prime, whereas Mazzy is a Halfling, which have strength penalties. And striking a blow for gender equality we have the Harper duo with equal scores.
16: Canderous, Osprey, Montaron, Kagain, Eldoth, Rasaad
At 16 we finally get a bonus to damage. Montaron is a beast for a Halfling, just one point below their 17 cap. Eldoth is a big surprise here: somehow I saw him as being physically weak, to match his slimy personality. In fact he could've been a fine fighter with that strength, though maybe he just works out out of vanity, and to pose as a dashing hero.
17: Ajantis, Yoshimo, Keldorn, Valygar, Haer'Dalis
Ahh, fine company here. Professionals all, people who take their jobs seriously. I'm guessing that in his prime, Keldorn was an 18, and that Ajantis would reach 18 as he gets more experience. Yoshimo is very strong for a pure class rogue, and Haer'Dalis I'm guessing has some fiendish heritage that grants him superior strength.
18/Exceptional: Kivan (/12), Anomen (/52), Arkanis (/53), Shar-Teel (/58), Korgan (/77), Minsc (/93), Sarevok (/00)
No NPC has a plain 18, after all only warriors would have the everyday lifestyle to get this strong. If 17 were the professionals, these are the people that take it almost too far. I almost can't imagine Shar-Teel in real life, with our perceptions of women being weaker than men, but she could tie Edwin or Cernd into knots (ok, Cernd would shapeshift, but you get my point). Kivan in my head-canon is a pinnacle of elven martial prowess, Anomen I feel trains excessively for self-esteem reasons, Korgan and Minsc live to fight, and Sarevok lives to kill. Oh, and at 18 you can use composite long bows for some reason.
19 Dorn, Wilson
For reference, 19 is the average strength of hill giants. Does that mean that Dorn could beat a hill giant at arm-wrestling? Seems a bit far fetched, but why would you have a half-orc NPC without 19 strength anyway? It's pretty much their one big draw. Wilson's strength is hard to place in comparison since a bear is built differently from a humanoid, much more for pure power.
20 Hexxat
Supernatural. 'Nuff said.
Phew, so that's it. Does your perception of NPCs change now you can see their strength scores up against each other? Are some just badly scored? Surprises, comments? Does it change your head-canon at all? How important is strength when you pick up NPCs? And finally, do you like the system they had in 2nd Ed where 25 was as high as strength went? Plus, just post your random thoughts about strength! Thanks for reading!
STRENGTH Scores
8: Quayle, Alora.
The lowest score, but still not low enough for roll penalties, are represented by the two smallest races, perhaps reflecting that gnomes and halflings tend to be weaker on average. People who played the original Baldur's Gate will remember that Quayle came equipped with a weapon he was too weak to use - at 8 strength NPCs can just barely wear splint and chainmail, and wield light crossbows.
9: Imoen, Edwin (BG1), Tiax, Jan
Still on the low side of average, we have the other two gnomes here, making them the race with the lowest average strength. Still, the fact that they're all casters is probably some reason for that. Imoen's low strength is her only small downside in the stats department. At 9 strength a character can wield a mundane warhammer (there are always exceptions for magical weapons, which tend to be lighter).
10: Edwin (BG2), Viconia, Aerie
Edwin gained a little muscle mass in the sequel, his peers at 10 being two female elves, lol. 10 strength gets you battle-axes, scimitars, and maces (that's to equip and wield them effectively, not merely to carry them in your pack).
11: Mordaine, Deder, Dynaheir, Skie, Neera
Not much to say here. 11 is still around average, and the three NPCs are casters and a rogue, who don't need to work out to be effective in battle. Morning stars and bastard swords are available at 11.
12: Faldorn, Baeloth
12 I guess is the pinnacle of average. It's the benchmark to equip plate mail armour and medium shields, and wield heavy crossbows. For these reasons, I would guess it's the minimum you have to reach if you want to be a professional soldier in the Realms.
13: Branwen, Xan, Safana, Cernd
Around here we find non-combat characters who might like to get their hands dirty (though we won't be getting bonuses to rolls until we hit 16). I'm slightly surprised Xan is this high, given his very low CON suggests a frail character. Could he have had martial training as a Moonblade wielder? Flails and halberds are available at 13.
14: Xzar, Garrick, Coran, Nalia, Clara
A couple of surprises here. First, Xzar is rather burly for a caster, which I like: after all, there's no reason mages *have* to be physically weak. A bigger surprise for me is Nalia. Given how she is outclassed by Imoen in every other department, maybe the game makers wanted to give her a large (but mostly useless) strength advantage. Coran is the stereotypical finesse fighter, but his 14 strength is just enough for him to take up mighty two-handed swords. Garrick too!
15: Khalid, Jaheira, Yeslick, Mazzy
All four of these NPCs are warrior classes, and their strength is somewhat low for that role, but nevertheless 15 is the benchmark for elite warriors, as they can equip full plate mail and large shields. And in two cases, 15 is quite high for the NPC's backgrounds: Yeslick struck me as being slightly old and past his prime, whereas Mazzy is a Halfling, which have strength penalties. And striking a blow for gender equality we have the Harper duo with equal scores.
16: Canderous, Osprey, Montaron, Kagain, Eldoth, Rasaad
At 16 we finally get a bonus to damage. Montaron is a beast for a Halfling, just one point below their 17 cap. Eldoth is a big surprise here: somehow I saw him as being physically weak, to match his slimy personality. In fact he could've been a fine fighter with that strength, though maybe he just works out out of vanity, and to pose as a dashing hero.
17: Ajantis, Yoshimo, Keldorn, Valygar, Haer'Dalis
Ahh, fine company here. Professionals all, people who take their jobs seriously. I'm guessing that in his prime, Keldorn was an 18, and that Ajantis would reach 18 as he gets more experience. Yoshimo is very strong for a pure class rogue, and Haer'Dalis I'm guessing has some fiendish heritage that grants him superior strength.
18/Exceptional: Kivan (/12), Anomen (/52), Arkanis (/53), Shar-Teel (/58), Korgan (/77), Minsc (/93), Sarevok (/00)
No NPC has a plain 18, after all only warriors would have the everyday lifestyle to get this strong. If 17 were the professionals, these are the people that take it almost too far. I almost can't imagine Shar-Teel in real life, with our perceptions of women being weaker than men, but she could tie Edwin or Cernd into knots (ok, Cernd would shapeshift, but you get my point). Kivan in my head-canon is a pinnacle of elven martial prowess, Anomen I feel trains excessively for self-esteem reasons, Korgan and Minsc live to fight, and Sarevok lives to kill. Oh, and at 18 you can use composite long bows for some reason.
19 Dorn, Wilson
For reference, 19 is the average strength of hill giants. Does that mean that Dorn could beat a hill giant at arm-wrestling? Seems a bit far fetched, but why would you have a half-orc NPC without 19 strength anyway? It's pretty much their one big draw. Wilson's strength is hard to place in comparison since a bear is built differently from a humanoid, much more for pure power.
20 Hexxat
Supernatural. 'Nuff said.
Phew, so that's it. Does your perception of NPCs change now you can see their strength scores up against each other? Are some just badly scored? Surprises, comments? Does it change your head-canon at all? How important is strength when you pick up NPCs? And finally, do you like the system they had in 2nd Ed where 25 was as high as strength went? Plus, just post your random thoughts about strength! Thanks for reading!
Post edited by dustbubsy on
14
Comments
A few of the clerics could have benefited a lot from having higher strength (Branwen namely prior to her access to level 4 spells). But otherwise I think its a stat that is fairly placed amongst NPC's.
*In bed...I regret nothing.
For backstabbing thieves high STR is great, for extra damage boost but especially for the thac0 boost. So I agree with you that Monty and Yoshi have an edge there on other NPCs.
This makes her on par with Sarevok and behind only new NPCs. (Dorn, Hexxat, WIlson)
Considering that those three are: a half orc, a vampire, and a bear, Mazzy is the strongest character in the game relative to her size and without the use of magic.
I also find Mazzy to be rather underrated. 18 Dexterity is not insignificant by any means when combined with magic armor. I guess having five points tied up in Shortbows is seen as a downside, but personally I've never found that to be a major problem with her future development.
I think, for the most part, the abilities reflect the NPCs. Yoshimo and Haer'Dalis are a bit stronger then I probably would expect if you read me a description of them, but they make it work. So good for them.
I don't like that
As for the time its fixed.
The level 1 and level 7 versions last 180 seconds (3 turns). The level 13 version lasts 234 seconds (its really random that they give you 39 rounds for it instead of 40 imo).
It doesn't matter anyway since there are many STR items and spells that do the same thing, even better.
Also it makes sense for all of them. Dorn is a Half Orc, Wilson is a bear and Hexxat is a vampire.
For example neither Neera nor Rasaad have the highest scores.
- That's the whole point for Dorn to be weaker than Sarevok. Sarevok is unique as a (ex)Bhaalspawn. Dorn is not. He's already an illegal character as it is, with an overblown personal quest compared to the those of other NPCs (creating havoc in the upper planes -_-)
- Sarevok is only accessible in TOB and by that time your party would likely have overtaken him in XP. Dorn is accessible early game.
- In the early game, before Chapter 6, you can only access the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. Girdle of Frost Giant Strength is in Underdark, Girdle of Stone Giant Strength is in Suldanessellar, Girdle of Fire Giant Strength is way in TOB. 19 Str on an NPC is a huge advantage with the +3 THAC0/+7 Damage
- If 19 Str is "not even as important as others' stats", then I'm unsure why you'd consider my statement "nerf him down to 18/91-18/99 Str and compensate him with 16 Con" as "stripping him of his racial advantage", since I'm nerfing a "not as important" stat in favor of a "more important" stat.
EDIT: Nerfing him down to 18/91-18/99 Str and upping his con to 16 is to make him a viable, evil alternative to Minsc. Korgan (high Str, max Con) is good enough for evil parties and there is no need for a "reverse Korgan" (max Str, high con) for evil parties again, when there is no such option for good parties.
I'm not sure it's more "realistic". In reality, everyone and anyone can put on the heaviest of armors.
But knowing how to move in them (proficiency) and being physically fit to actually move with ease (encumbrance) is another story.
You don't have to be physically fit to actually put on the armor. But you need to be to move in it with ease.
About weapons, that makes some more sense to have a STR requirement. But really, most weapons are not THAT heavy that are unliftable. A Greataxe in 3.5E (not sure about ADnD) weighs around 12lbs.
@jacobtan
The only thing Dorn has going on for him is his 19 STR and maybe his sword. Not including his class.
And that's irrelevant with the STR items.
Sarevok on the other hand, has max STR, max CON, almost max DEX and INT and freaking Deathbringer Assault that is second only to instant-death.
Dorn is an unholy glass cannon. Sarevok is a walking tank with it's own cannon.
When you put the two together, Sarevok clearly wins. Lowering Dorn's STR would strip him of his only racial advantage.
Then Sarevok would have higher STR, CON and DEX.
Viconia has 19 DEX. Korgan has 19 CON. Dorn has 19 STR and it's not even that an important stat as the other ones in BG2.
Personally, I think they should give Dorn 16 CON with no other changes. Viconia gained 3 Wisdom points from BG1 to BG2.
-Dorn is a Half-Orc, though. And half-orcs can have a legal STR of 19.
-If they changed his STR to lower than 19 for BG2, they would have to do it for BG1 as well, to make sense.
-Sarevok already has super stats and death-bringer assault.
-Evil NPCs have some stats maxxed in BG2. Edwin (INT), Viconia (DEX & WIS), Korgan (CON). What's the problem with an evil Half-Orc having the legal 19 STR?
-Because without his super STR, he would be another average warrior. The STR is his selling point along with his kit.
I still don't understand what the issue is, though? That Dorn is too powerful? And Sarevok should be more powerful when he actually is? Should Dorn be nerfed so Sarevok is EVEN more powerful?
Yes, Dorn is powerful. As he should be being an evil Half-Orc NPC. Since when evil NPCs being powerful was ever an issue? Also you receive -2 to reputation just by recruiting him and you can't have too high Reputation or he'll leave. Isn't that enough to balance it? Do we want some crappy Korgan/Sarevok wannabe?
And while STR isn't as important as other stats in BG2 after a while, it's still his niche. He's the character with that huge but legal STR.
-Dorn is a Half-Orc, though. And half-orcs can have a legal STR of 19.
The argument does not follow. Based on your argument, Aerie and Mazzy should have 19 Dex and Jan should have 19 Int, since these are their racial maximums and hence, citing you, legal.
-If they changed his STR to lower than 19 for BG2, they would have to do it for BG1 as well, to make sense.
Non sequitur. I doubt the developers will change his stats. Only if they decide to do this need we worry about retconning for consistency. In either case it has no bearing on our current discussion.
-Sarevok already has super stats and death-bringer assault.
As I said, he is a TOB NPC, not an SOA NPC, and by then your party would likely have overtaken him in levels. If he doesn't have strong stats, he will not be viable at a level behind the party. Additionally, he is supposed to be unique and powerful according to BG canon.
-Evil NPCs have some stats maxxed in BG2. Edwin (INT), Viconia (DEX & WIS), Korgan (CON). What's the problem with an evil Half-Orc having the legal 19 STR?
Edwin's Int is 18 vs 17 for the most intelligent of the other mages. 1 rank above others
Viconia's Dex is 19 vs 18 for the most dextrous of the other characters. 1 rank above others
Korgan's Con is 19 vs 17 (not counting Sarevok) for the most sturdy of the other characters. 2 ranks above others, but which translates into 18HP, about one hit's worth of damage in normal mode. A hit in insane mode does way more than 18HP.
Dorn's Str is 19 vs 18/93 (not counting Sarevok) for the strongest of the other characters. Many ranks above others considering that most of the warriors are only 17 Str or less. Hence, the proposal to nerf him. Even 18/00 would be preferable to 19.
19 Str translates into +3 THAC0, +7 Damage
18/93 Str translates into +2 THAC0, +5 Damage
17 Str translates into +1 THAC0, +1 Damage
Compared to Minsc, it is as if Dorn has a free, permanent Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise equipped. Compared to the other characters, it is as if he has a free, permanent Gauntlets of Ogre Power equipped plus an additional +1 damage bonus (since 18/00 strength translates into +3 THAC0, +6 damage). Early game, this is a huge advantage.
Str receives more emphasis because it is directly relevant to combat. 18 Int vs 17 Int is primarily for spell-scribing and not directly relevant in combat. 19 Dex vs 18 Dex is primarily for an additional +1 bonus with ranged weapons (typically slings for Viconia). 19 Con vs 17 Con is 18HP. But 19 Str vs 18/93 or 17 Str is a very large gap.
-Because without his super STR, he would be another average warrior. The STR is his selling point along with his kit.
Hmm... first, you say without his super strength, he would be another average warrior. Then you say his kit is also a selling point. So which is which, super strength is the only selling point, or both super strength and kit are selling points? I need to see some fixed goalposts before offering a rebuttal.
As an aside, isn't 18/91+ strength already better than the rest (except Minsc)?
I still don't understand what the issue is, though? That Dorn is too powerful? And Sarevok should be more powerful when he actually is? Should Dorn be nerfed so Sarevok is EVEN more powerful?
Dorn is too powerful for an NPC available early game. Using your words, his kit is a selling point. So let it be a selling point then. Nobody is calling for his Str to be nerfed to 9 or something you know. 18/91-18/99 is still better than any of the other SOA NPCs except for Minsc.
I don't recall either of us saying Sarevok should be more powerful than he already is.
Nerfing Dorn does not make Sarevok objectively more powerful. it is to make him comparable to the other characters available early-game, and less powerful (in absolute terms) than Sarevok.
Yes, Dorn is powerful. As he should be being an evil Half-Orc NPC. Since when evil NPCs being powerful was ever an issue? Also you receive -2 to reputation just by recruiting him and you can't have too high Reputation or he'll leave. Isn't that enough to balance it? Do we want some crappy Korgan/Sarevok wannabe?
-2 Reputation has no direct combat relevance.
Citing you, you said that his kit is a selling point. So I don't know how you can compare Dorn to Korgan and Sarevok when they have different unique abilities.
* * *
I did mention that I'm not against Rasaad. This is because he has pretty average stats, hence his selling point is really his class/kit. Since the Blackguard class/kit is reasonably powerful (not like unmodded Shapeshifter, etc.), it is not necessary for Dorn's stats to be head and shoulders above the rest of the SOA NPCs, and it can be nerfed down so that it is on par with the strongest of the other SOA NPCs (Minsc), and not objectively more powerful than Sarevok, who IS a monster in BG canon and a TOB NPC.
The Blackguard kit being a selling point for Dorn because he's the only one in the game, it's a new and shiny kit and sets him apart from the others.
But, you can also make a Blackguard NPC. Dorn having 19 STR is the unique thing about him AND that he's a Half-Orc Blackguard, not just a Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian or a Human Blackguard.
It's the combination of both that makes him unique and interesting. Only a human can be a Blackguard and only a Half-Orc can have 19 STR. Dorn is both. That's the selling point, that he is something unique that Charname cannot be.
Viconia has 19 DEX, 18 WIS and 65% MR. Unique trait.
Edwin has 18 INT and his amulet. Unique trait.
Sarevok has 18/00 STR, 18 CON and Deathbringer Assault. Unique trait.
Dorn has 19 STR and is an illegal Blackguard. Unique trait.
Take away his exceptional Strength and he becomes just a Blackguard NPC. His race being cosmetic.
Take away him being a Blackguard and he becomes a generic Half-Orc brute.
-2 Reputation has no combat relevance but it has a game relevance. BG is not just combat. And it still counts as a relevant minus.
But, let's compare him to Korgan instead of Sarevok.
Korgan has 18/77 STR, 16 DEX and 19 CON, plus Berserker stuff and shorty bonuses.
Dorn has 19 STR, 16 DEX and 14 CON.
18/77 STR gives you +2 to hit and +4 damage.
19 STR gives +3 to hit and +7 to damage.
Yay, what a huge difference. Dorn is so overpowered compared to all all the other NPCs. Well, not really.
Oh, by the way, Korgan is already a Grandmaster in axes when you get him.
Which means that he gets a +3 to hit and +5 damage compared to Dorn which can only speciliaze.
Dorn which can only specialize gets +1 to hit and +2 damage.
So in short, Korgan gets +5 to hit (+2 STR and +3 GM) and +9 damage (+4 STR and +5 GM).
Dorn gets +4 to hit (+3 STR and +1 Spec) and +9 (+7 STR and +2 Spec).
Then consider that Korgan has far more HP, shorty bonuses, an extra half attack and bonuses to attack, damage, AC and immunities(Berserker).
Dorn was very good in BG1EE. Not in BG2EE.
And once you get a STR item, his STR isn't special anymore. There aren't items that set your DEX or CON to 19 or 20 for example. Except potions but those don't count.
Which is best 18/00 of Savevok or Minsc's 18/93? Do you want a higher of a lower number following 18?
(Edited by mistake apparently.)
Sarevok's. 18/00 stands for 18/100 which is the maximum.
18/77 STR gives you +2 to hit and +4 damage.
18/93 STR gives you +2 to hit and +5 damage.
18/00 STR gives you +3 to hit and +6 damage.
19 STR gives you +3 to hit and +7 damage.
It's all in the BGEE manual. Though there might be a tiny chance that the manual is incorrect.
The Blackguard kit being a selling point for Dorn because he's the only one in the game, it's a new and shiny kit and sets him apart from the others.
But, you can also make a Blackguard NPC. Dorn having 19 STR is the unique thing about him AND that he's a Half-Orc Blackguard, not just a Half-Orc Fighter/Barbarian or a Human Blackguard.
It's the combination of both that makes him unique and interesting. Only a human can be a Blackguard and only a Half-Orc can have 19 STR. Dorn is both. That's the selling point, that he is something unique that Charname cannot be.
Viconia has 19 DEX, 18 WIS and 65% MR. Unique trait.
Edwin has 18 INT and his amulet. Unique trait.
Sarevok has 18/00 STR, 18 CON and Deathbringer Assault. Unique trait.
Dorn has 19 STR and is an illegal Blackguard. Unique trait.
Take away his exceptional Strength and he becomes just a Blackguard NPC. His race being cosmetic.
Take away him being a Blackguard and he becomes a generic Half-Orc brute.
* * *
- Again, your argument makes no sense. A player will decide what PC to play as. If a blackguard fits in his party that is cool. If a blackguard does not fit in his party, that is cool too. Your line of argument is that his stats must be "so g**d*** awesome" in order to sell him, which not only makes little sense, but is also a defining characteristic of some of the NPC mods considered the worst (e.g. Chloe with that in-your-face 25 Dex)
- - - - -
-2 Reputation has no combat relevance but it has a game relevance. BG is not just combat. And it still counts as a relevant minus.
* * *
Like it or not, BG is a combat-intensive game and the game is won and lost on combat (try talking your way out of the Irenicus or Melissan fights XD).
- - - - -
But, let's compare him to Korgan instead of Sarevok.
Korgan has 18/77 STR, 16 DEX and 19 CON, plus Berserker stuff and shorty bonuses.
Dorn has 19 STR, 16 DEX and 14 CON.
18/77 STR gives you +2 to hit and +4 damage.
19 STR gives +3 to hit and +7 to damage.
Yay, what a huge difference. Dorn is so overpowered compared to all all the other NPCs /sarcasm.
Oh, by the way, Korgan is already a Grandmaster in axes when you get him.
Which means that he gets a +3 to hit and +5 damage compared to Dorn which can only speciliaze.
Dorn which can only specialize gets +1 to hit and +2 damage.
So in short, Korgan gets +5 to hit (+2 STR and +3 GM) and +9 damage (+4 STR and +5 GM).
Dorn gets +4 to hit (+3 STR and +1 Spec) and +9 (+7 STR and +2 Spec).
Then consider that Korgan has far more HP, immunities and shorty bonuses.
* * *
+1 to-hit and +3 damage is not good enough for you? Based on your reasoning:
1. +1 to-hit and +1 damage for skalds is meh
2. +1 to-hit and +2 damage for swashbucklers (from specialization) is meh
But anyway, would be good if you refrain from jumping around the topic. This is a discussion of Str as a stat. If you want to drag in Korgan's grandmastery and racial bonuses which are not directly linked to his stats, you must also consider that Dorn has blackguard immunities and abilities, and can cast spells at high levels.
As it stands, you are trying to defend Dorn by magnifying the abilities of the competition and diminishing his already-considerable abilities.
When you roll for Strength score, if you roll 18 AND you are a warrior (fighter/ranger/paladin), you roll a 100-sided dice for exceptional strength. The roll for on the 100-sided dice is appended to the 18 Strength you had.
e.g. You are a fighter. You roll 18. So you roll a 100-sided dice again for exceptional strength. If you roll 52, then your final strength score is 18/52.
18/00 is simply a roll of 18 for strength, followed by a result of 100 on the roll of the 100-sided dice.
Has far better HP. Levels up faster. Has shorty bonuses. And gets half an attack more. Also no reputation loss.
Basically if he dual-wields and goes into berserk mode, he does more than double the damage of Dorn.
By the way, the comparison is made with just their melee ability without any activated stuff.
Then it becomes a game of tactics instead of pure melee damage.
Basically, they pay the reputation cost with better stats than the others.
Edwin, Viconia, Korgan, Dorn, Hexxat, Sarevok, all of them have exceptional stats.
If you lower his STR, you would make him slightly stronger than Korgan. While Korgan has a bunch of other bonuses.
You cannot compare just a single stat when talking about characters.
Because characters also have a bunch of other stuff to make up the difference.
While Dorn is just a bit stronger than Korgan, the latter one is much more survivable and makes up the difference with his Grandmastery and bonuses.
Korgan has a bunch of other bonuses from his race and class (shorty bonuses, grandmastery), but Dorn ALSO has a bunch of other bonuses from his class (spellcasting, poison weapon, absorb health, etc.). You cannot bring in Korgan's class/race abilities without also bringing in Dorn's class/race abilties if you want a fair comparison.
Hence... this brings us back to the original purpose of the thread - the discussion of strength as a stat. Not about class/race abilities.
Is it because nobody would pick sarevok? That is likely untrue as by ToB you have several str enhancing items anyway. And +1 to damage is not a huge difference.
Is it because Sarevok is a bhaalspawn and therefore has to be the best? There are lots of shitty bhaalspawns in sadadust. Also a weak argument.
I don't see why str 19 on dorn bothers you :-?