Let's compare the static bonuses and not the ones that are triggered then. (No spells or special abilities).
"So in short, Korgan gets +5 to hit (+2 STR and +3 GM) and +9 damage (+4 STR and +5 GM). Dorn gets +4 to hit (+3 STR and +1 Spec) and +9 (+7 STR and +2 Spec)."
That would be +1 Damage for Dorn with Two Handed Weapon Style though.
Those are their stats when you first recruit them. No weapons, no spells, no abilities, no extra attacks.
Korgan has +1 to hit. Dorn has +1 to damage with Two Handed Weapon Style.
Really, the difference is minimal. And not worth making a debate over.
Why should Dorn's strength be below Sarevok's? Sarevok is human. He has maximum strength for a human. Dorn is a Half orc. He has maximum str for a half-orc. Mecanically, the difference is minimal. I don't follow your reasonment.
- One is only available in TOB. The other in early SOA. That's why.
Is it because nobody would pick sarevok? That is likely untrue as by ToB you have several str enhancing items anyway. And +1 to damage is not a huge difference.
- As above.
Is it because Sarevok is a bhaalspawn and therefore has to be the best? There are lots of shitty bhaalspawns in sadadust. Also a weak argument.
- Again, Sarevok is TOB-only. Dorn is in early SOA. This is a big plus for Dorn already, and a reason for nerfing him. - Second, come on, he was the boss in BG, tutored in ancient texts, planning for years to assume Bhaal's portfolio, and almost made it. If you don't buy this RP argument, fair enough. But it still doesn't negate the fact that Sarevok is TOB-only. I can concede RP points, but not for game mechanics/balance issues.
I don't see why str 19 on dorn bothers you :-?
- Because Dorn is available in SOA. If you move him to TOB, then I agree that he should have his constitution upped. Alternatively, if Sarevok is moved to SOA, then Sarevok is the one who needs some nerfing.
* * *
The disagreement is really just about this question:
Should Dorn be THAT powerful as an early-SOA NPC who stands head and shoulders above the other NPCs? If you say yes, then he is okay. If you say no, then he is not. It is as simple as that.
@jacobtan The closest comparison is made with Korgan. The difference is so small it's ridiculous. You could give him the same STR as Korgan and Korgan would still have the edge (pun intended).
@jacobtan The closest comparison is made with Korgan. The difference is so small it's ridiculous. You could give him the same STR as Korgan and Korgan would still have the edge (pun intended).
Last I remembered, he has these abilities, abilities that Korgan does not have:
Rebuke Undead Poison Weapon Absorb Health Aura of Despair L1-4 Spellcasting Immunity to Level Drain and Fear
Again, I would ask that you refrain from dragging Korgan's class and race abilties in, else we go off topic. This is about Str as relevant to them. Not about blackguard vs combined dwarf+fighter bonuses.
Let's compare the static bonuses and not the ones that are triggered then. (No spells or special abilities).
"So in short, Korgan gets +5 to hit (+2 STR and +3 GM) and +9 damage (+4 STR and +5 GM). Dorn gets +4 to hit (+3 STR and +1 Spec) and +9 (+7 STR and +2 Spec)."
That would be +1 Damage for Dorn with Two Handed Weapon Style though.
Those are their stats when you first recruit them. No weapons, no spells, no abilities, no extra attacks.
Korgan has +1 to hit. Dorn has +1 to damage with Two Handed Weapon Style.
Really, the difference is minimal. And not worth making a debate over.
We're getting somewhere. I'm glad, and I don't mean this with sarcasm.
I respect your preference for a powerful Dorn as he is, but I maintain that there is no need for Dorn to be as powerful as he is.
As you have pointed out, In terms of static to-hit and damage bonuses, they are near-par. Yet, pure fighters are actually supposed to be more powerful than paladins/rangers in combat. This is their niche, which is in turn overcompensated by the paladins'/rangers' granted abilities, hence the higher XP required to gain levels for paladins/rangers.
That said, Korgan should be clearly more powerful than Dorn in melee. That Dorn's melee ability is near-par with Korgan thanks to his 19 strength indicates that 19 strength is too high - it basically reduces the comparative advantage of Korgan's fighter class to that of a measly +1/2 APR at grandmastery.
And this is why I asked you to keep class abilities out of it, because once you factor in the whole lot of class/race abilities that both Korgan and Dorn have, Korgan will come up short because the blackguard kit is just that powerful, possibly the most powergaming of the new classes.
Perhaps I shouldn't say Dorn is overpowered. I should say Korgan and the other SOA fighters are *underpowered* compared to Dorn, hence Dorn should be "handicapped" by having his strength nerfed.
Well, Sarevok has more points overall. That can represent him being really exceptional. In any case, the fact that he almosts wins is due to his Int+Cha, not his Str.
So basically the problem is that dorn (in your opinion) is overpowered for a SoA character. Now I am with you
I disagree. From a game point of view, having a halforc without str 19 is stupid. Thats the only reason to be a halforc in this game. And I dont think a str 19 character makes it much better than the rest. From the begining of the game, you can get a str19 girdle and some 18/00 gauntlets.
Does str 19 make dorn a valuable addition? Yes. Is it overpowered? Dont think so. Now, inmunity to level drain is another story, but that is off topic
Dorn is basically about pure offense. His AC, HP are crap. Korgan is more defensive. Better HP, better saves and Rage gives AC, HP and immunities.
Since their pure melee ability is almost identical, then we need to compare them with their full abilities.
And in the end, it depends on the playstyle. You want pure offense with poison and buffs? Dorn. You want some defense while still having some good offense? Korgan.
Yes, while with their full abilities Dorn is more offensive and damaging. Korgan has lifesaving bonuses.
Hell, just take both and be the judge. Math says that pure melee they're almost identical. Their full character sheet says that it's more offense vs more defense.
Well, Sarevok has more points overall. That can represent him being really exceptional. In any case, the fact that he almosts wins is due to his Int+Cha, not his Str.
So basically the problem is that dorn (in your opinion) is overpowered for a SoA character. Now I am with you
I disagree. From a game point of view, having a halforc without str 19 is stupid. Thats the only reason to be a halforc in this game. And I dont think a str 19 character makes it much better than the rest. From the begining of the game, you can get a str19 girdle and some 18/00 gauntlets.
Does str 19 make dorn a valuable addition? Yes. Is it overpowered? Dont think so. Now, inmunity to level drain is another story, but that is off topic
Based on your argument:
Having a halfling without Dex 19 is stupid (ref. Mazzy with 18 Dex) Having an elf without Dex 19 is stupid (ref. Aerie with 17 Dex, or if you want, Kivan with 17 Dex) Having a gnome without Int 19 is stupid (ref. Jan Jansen with Int 16)
This is the same argument you are making as with @Archaos, that if 19 is the max then you must have the max... on an NPC. Let's not get there
Look at it in a different way, with Dorn, you get a "free" Str 19 Girdle or 18/00 gauntlets, without having to cough up the gold. And if you don't have to equip either of these on Dorn, you can equip someone else, like Korgan and another fighter, another cleric (Viconia) or similar.
Dorn is basically about pure offense. His AC, HP are crap. Korgan is more defensive. Better HP, better saves and Rage gives AC, HP and immunities.
Since their pure melee ability is almost identical, then we need to compare them with their full abilities.
And in the end, it depends on the playstyle. You want pure offense with poison and buffs? Dorn. You want some defense while still having some good offense? Korgan.
Yes, while with their full abilities Dorn is more offensive and damaging. Korgan has lifesaving bonuses.
Hell, just take both and be the judge. Math says that pure melee they're almost identical. Their full character sheet says that it's more offense vs more defense.
I can agree with you mostly, except for one thing...
Yeah but they don't provide the full set of immunities and bonuses that Rage provides, plus shorty bonuses.
Though a Draw Upon Holy Might-Poison-Soul Reaver-wielding with Fallen Devas and Animated Undead Dorn is scary.
Finally! I see eye-to-eye with you on this.
Korgan has rage. This is all he will get. Plus shorty bonuses. That is all. Nada.
Dorn has spellcasting that will expand his options greatly. Buffs, debuffs, summons, etc. He will eventually make Korgan look like a sissy, and Sarevok too, thanks to his class abilities. Hence, if Str can be boosted by items, he CAN be nerfed without hurting his potential power. And I never asked for him to be nerfed from 19 Str to 9 Str or something. I only asked for him to be nerfed to 18/91-18/99 Str. Still above Korgan and everyone else, except for Minsc.
With respect to stats, Str is different to the rest. After all, viconia has dex 19 and you dont think she is too overpowered.
There is no point making an illegal halforc blackguard if you are not going to give him 19 str. Make a legal human, then
I wouldn't mind, actually. He's half a human after all.
Anyway, Viconia's 19 Dex is very good, but nowhere near overpowering. It's her MR that makes her stand out. Viconia without MR is rather meh even if all her stats are at racial max.
18 Dex: -4 AC bonus, +2 THAC0 bonus with ranged weapons (slings for Viconia) 19 Dex: -4 AC bonus, +3 THAC0 bonus with ranged weapons (slings for Viconia)
It's not so bad for Viconia to have a -4 AC bonus since she cannot protect herself physically (no Stoneskin or Ironskin) and 19 Dex only affects her ability to hit... with a sling... by 1 point.
If you're going to talk about illegality, the gods of the game (a.k.a. the developers) can do anything, half-orc or no. After all, Aerie is illegal. Anomen is illegal. They could make Dorn a halfling with 25 Str saying he has been imbued by the power of his patron, and I guess none of us can do anything about it
@element It doesn't matter anyway since there are many STR items and spells that do the same thing, even better.
Also it makes sense for all of them. Dorn is a Half Orc, Wilson is a bear and Hexxat is a vampire. For example neither Neera nor Rasaad have the highest scores.
its not about whether or not it works, it just feels a little dirty.
It is widely accepted that the evil team in BG2 is best at what they do. Korgan is the best pure Fighter. Viconia is the best pure Cleric. Edwin is the best pure Mage. Dorn is the strongest warrior. Hexxat is the best Thief. And Sarevok is death incarnate.
Despite lacking in spells or immunities or saves, Deathbringer Assault is usually instant-chunking, except bosses.
It is widely accepted that the evil team in BG2 is best at what they do. Korgan is the best pure Fighter. Viconia is the best pure Cleric. Edwin is the best pure Mage. Dorn is the strongest warrior. Hexxat is the best Thief. And Sarevok is death incarnate.
Despite lacking in spells or immunities or saves, Deathbringer Assault is usually instant-chunking, except bosses.
Alright... it has come down to this... let us all look into the mirror...
Dorn is powerful because players want a super badass evil warrior that kicks butt (he loves male PC butt too, but that's besides the point), to hell to RP/balance issues.
Okay, this one, I can accept. A product has to cater to the wants of paying customers after all
Dorn's strength is great early on in BG1 where it puts his damage output well above other warriors.
His advantage narrows considerably once you get the gauntlets of ogre power, and also once you use the +1 strength tome (either on yourself or on one of the other 18 strength fighters).
In BG2 his strength is much less of an advantage because the gauntlets of ogre power and girdle of hill giant strength are available very early on. Which is enough to cover most requirements for a typical party.
Dorn's low consitution is much harder to compensate for. There's only one girdle of fortitude and I find it a pain to remember to use. Plus I generally want it for my mages more, because otherwise a stray AE can easily kill them.
@jacobtan hence my point. Doing an elf without dex 19 is not stupid as te benefits are not that great. Making a half orc warrior (or similar) without str 19 would have been widely criticised.
In any case i look at it from bg2 perspective. Maybe in bg1 dorn really stands out and is op
@jacobtan hence my point. Doing an elf without dex 19 is not stupid as te benefits are not that great. Making a half orc warrior (or similar) without str 19 would have been widely criticised.
In any case i look at it from bg2 perspective. Maybe in bg1 dorn really stands out and is op
I did not call for his Str to be below 18. I called for his Str to be 18/91-99. And I also called for his Con to be adjusted up to 16 to compensate for the nerf. I don't think I proposed "all take and no give" for Dorn
To be fair, Hexxat's strength doesn't do as much for her, as she still has Rogue Thac0 progression. Not that it's useless, mind you. It sure is nice to have a thief who can carry around everything she steals. What is it, like 1600 600 lbs, right? Edit: oops, I was off by a bit!
Sarevok's. 18/00 stands for 18/100 which is the maximum.
18/77 STR gives you +2 to hit and +4 damage. 18/93 STR gives you +2 to hit and +5 damage. 18/00 STR gives you +3 to hit and +6 damage. 19 STR gives you +3 to hit and +7 damage.
It's all in the BGEE manual. Though there might be a tiny chance that the manual is incorrect.
Thanks @Archaos. I thought 00 would be 100, made sense with it being Sarevok, so the higher the better. I dont actually have a copy of BGEE yet, waiting for the Android version (someday ). Plus I dont think the 5 disc copy or DVD copies I had ever had a manual with them either.
It's all in the BGEE manual. Though there might be a tiny chance that the manual is incorrect.
Thanks @Archaos. I thought 00 would be 100, made sense with it being Sarevok, so the higher the better. I dont actually have a copy of BGEE yet, waiting for the Android version (someday ). Plus I dont think the 5 disc copy or DVD copies I had ever had a manual with them either.
Dorn is the strongest warrior. And Sarevok is death incarnate.
Sarevok > Dorn by WAAAAAAAY lot. Sarevok, dual-classed as a Thief in ToB had more kills that Dorn, who had 2,5 millions of XP more, plus Dorn kept dying while Sarevok did not, because of higher DEX and CON, besides that STR 19 in BG2 is obsolete, compared to Sarevok he only has +1 damage, but Sarevok has 1) better lvl progression (even if you don't dual class him to thief) and 2) can reach grand mastery 3) 5% chance of +200 damage. Plus Sarevok is one of the coolest characters in the game _and_ the only one with two dual-class options without using Tomes/Machine of Lum the Mad.
I think Dorn is 'Give all damage and take no damage' since in late ToB he fells dead after 4-6 hits while my PC and Korgan last 8-11 hits from enemies like Fire Giants #shitloadsofhp #CONover19
Comments
"So in short, Korgan gets +5 to hit (+2 STR and +3 GM) and +9 damage (+4 STR and +5 GM).
Dorn gets +4 to hit (+3 STR and +1 Spec) and +9 (+7 STR and +2 Spec)."
That would be +1 Damage for Dorn with Two Handed Weapon Style though.
Those are their stats when you first recruit them. No weapons, no spells, no abilities, no extra attacks.
Korgan has +1 to hit. Dorn has +1 to damage with Two Handed Weapon Style.
Really, the difference is minimal. And not worth making a debate over.
- One is only available in TOB. The other in early SOA. That's why.
Is it because nobody would pick sarevok? That is likely untrue as by ToB you have several str enhancing items anyway. And +1 to damage is not a huge difference.
- As above.
Is it because Sarevok is a bhaalspawn and therefore has to be the best? There are lots of shitty bhaalspawns in sadadust. Also a weak argument.
- Again, Sarevok is TOB-only. Dorn is in early SOA. This is a big plus for Dorn already, and a reason for nerfing him.
- Second, come on, he was the boss in BG, tutored in ancient texts, planning for years to assume Bhaal's portfolio, and almost made it. If you don't buy this RP argument, fair enough. But it still doesn't negate the fact that Sarevok is TOB-only. I can concede RP points, but not for game mechanics/balance issues.
I don't see why str 19 on dorn bothers you :-?
- Because Dorn is available in SOA. If you move him to TOB, then I agree that he should have his constitution upped. Alternatively, if Sarevok is moved to SOA, then Sarevok is the one who needs some nerfing.
* * *
The disagreement is really just about this question:
Should Dorn be THAT powerful as an early-SOA NPC who stands head and shoulders above the other NPCs? If you say yes, then he is okay. If you say no, then he is not. It is as simple as that.
The closest comparison is made with Korgan. The difference is so small it's ridiculous. You could give him the same STR as Korgan and Korgan would still have the edge (pun intended).
Rebuke Undead
Poison Weapon
Absorb Health
Aura of Despair
L1-4 Spellcasting
Immunity to Level Drain and Fear
Again, I would ask that you refrain from dragging Korgan's class and race abilties in, else we go off topic. This is about Str as relevant to them. Not about blackguard vs combined dwarf+fighter bonuses.
I respect your preference for a powerful Dorn as he is, but I maintain that there is no need for Dorn to be as powerful as he is.
As you have pointed out, In terms of static to-hit and damage bonuses, they are near-par. Yet, pure fighters are actually supposed to be more powerful than paladins/rangers in combat. This is their niche, which is in turn overcompensated by the paladins'/rangers' granted abilities, hence the higher XP required to gain levels for paladins/rangers.
That said, Korgan should be clearly more powerful than Dorn in melee. That Dorn's melee ability is near-par with Korgan thanks to his 19 strength indicates that 19 strength is too high - it basically reduces the comparative advantage of Korgan's fighter class to that of a measly +1/2 APR at grandmastery.
And this is why I asked you to keep class abilities out of it, because once you factor in the whole lot of class/race abilities that both Korgan and Dorn have, Korgan will come up short because the blackguard kit is just that powerful, possibly the most powergaming of the new classes.
Perhaps I shouldn't say Dorn is overpowered. I should say Korgan and the other SOA fighters are *underpowered* compared to Dorn, hence Dorn should be "handicapped" by having his strength nerfed.
So basically the problem is that dorn (in your opinion) is overpowered for a SoA character. Now I am with you
I disagree. From a game point of view, having a halforc without str 19 is stupid. Thats the only reason to be a halforc in this game. And I dont think a str 19 character makes it much better than the rest. From the begining of the game, you can get a str19 girdle and some 18/00 gauntlets.
Does str 19 make dorn a valuable addition? Yes. Is it overpowered? Dont think so. Now, inmunity to level drain is another story, but that is off topic
Korgan is more defensive. Better HP, better saves and Rage gives AC, HP and immunities.
Since their pure melee ability is almost identical, then we need to compare them with their full abilities.
And in the end, it depends on the playstyle. You want pure offense with poison and buffs? Dorn.
You want some defense while still having some good offense? Korgan.
Yes, while with their full abilities Dorn is more offensive and damaging.
Korgan has lifesaving bonuses.
Hell, just take both and be the judge.
Math says that pure melee they're almost identical.
Their full character sheet says that it's more offense vs more defense.
Having a halfling without Dex 19 is stupid (ref. Mazzy with 18 Dex)
Having an elf without Dex 19 is stupid (ref. Aerie with 17 Dex, or if you want, Kivan with 17 Dex)
Having a gnome without Int 19 is stupid (ref. Jan Jansen with Int 16)
This is the same argument you are making as with @Archaos, that if 19 is the max then you must have the max... on an NPC. Let's not get there
Look at it in a different way, with Dorn, you get a "free" Str 19 Girdle or 18/00 gauntlets, without having to cough up the gold. And if you don't have to equip either of these on Dorn, you can equip someone else, like Korgan and another fighter, another cleric (Viconia) or similar.
Come on, Dorn has spells! He can buff himself! XD
Yeah but they don't provide the full set of immunities and bonuses that Rage provides, plus shorty bonuses.
Though a Draw Upon Holy Might-Poison-Soul Reaver-wielding with Fallen Devas and Animated Undead Dorn is scary.
But so is a dual-wielding-Crom Faeyr-and-Axe of the Unyielding-Raging-Korgan.
And a Greater Whirlwind-Ravager+6-wielding-Deathbringer Assaulting Sarevok.
Korgan has rage. This is all he will get. Plus shorty bonuses. That is all. Nada.
Dorn has spellcasting that will expand his options greatly. Buffs, debuffs, summons, etc. He will eventually make Korgan look like a sissy, and Sarevok too, thanks to his class abilities. Hence, if Str can be boosted by items, he CAN be nerfed without hurting his potential power. And I never asked for him to be nerfed from 19 Str to 9 Str or something. I only asked for him to be nerfed to 18/91-18/99 Str. Still above Korgan and everyone else, except for Minsc.
With respect to stats, Str is different to the rest. After all, viconia has dex 19 and you dont think she is too overpowered.
There is no point making an illegal halforc blackguard if you are not going to give him 19 str. Make a legal human, then
Anyway, Viconia's 19 Dex is very good, but nowhere near overpowering. It's her MR that makes her stand out. Viconia without MR is rather meh even if all her stats are at racial max.
18 Dex: -4 AC bonus, +2 THAC0 bonus with ranged weapons (slings for Viconia)
19 Dex: -4 AC bonus, +3 THAC0 bonus with ranged weapons (slings for Viconia)
It's not so bad for Viconia to have a -4 AC bonus since she cannot protect herself physically (no Stoneskin or Ironskin) and 19 Dex only affects her ability to hit... with a sling... by 1 point.
If you're going to talk about illegality, the gods of the game (a.k.a. the developers) can do anything, half-orc or no. After all, Aerie is illegal. Anomen is illegal. They could make Dorn a halfling with 25 Str saying he has been imbued by the power of his patron, and I guess none of us can do anything about it
That has been brought up a few times but Aerie is not illegal. She's not just an elf. She's an Avariel and Avariel can be Cleric/Mages in ADnD.
It is widely accepted that the evil team in BG2 is best at what they do.
Korgan is the best pure Fighter.
Viconia is the best pure Cleric.
Edwin is the best pure Mage.
Dorn is the strongest warrior.
Hexxat is the best Thief.
And Sarevok is death incarnate.
Despite lacking in spells or immunities or saves, Deathbringer Assault is usually instant-chunking, except bosses.
Dorn is powerful because players want a super badass evil warrior that kicks butt (he loves male PC butt too, but that's besides the point), to hell to RP/balance issues.
Okay, this one, I can accept. A product has to cater to the wants of paying customers after all
His advantage narrows considerably once you get the gauntlets of ogre power, and also once you use the +1 strength tome (either on yourself or on one of the other 18 strength fighters).
In BG2 his strength is much less of an advantage because the gauntlets of ogre power and girdle of hill giant strength are available very early on. Which is enough to cover most requirements for a typical party.
Dorn's low consitution is much harder to compensate for. There's only one girdle of fortitude and I find it a pain to remember to use. Plus I generally want it for my mages more, because otherwise a stray AE can easily kill them.
In any case i look at it from bg2 perspective. Maybe in bg1 dorn really stands out and is op
I like Dorn as he is, nuff said.
Not that it's useless, mind you. It sure is nice to have a thief who can carry around everything she steals. What is it, like 1600 600 lbs, right?
Edit: oops, I was off by a bit!
I dont actually have a copy of BGEE yet, waiting for the Android version (someday
http://www.baldursgate.com/manuals.en.html
Sarevok, dual-classed as a Thief in ToB had more kills that Dorn, who had 2,5 millions of XP more, plus Dorn kept dying while Sarevok did not, because of higher DEX and CON, besides that STR 19 in BG2 is obsolete, compared to Sarevok he only has +1 damage, but Sarevok has 1) better lvl progression (even if you don't dual class him to thief) and 2) can reach grand mastery 3) 5% chance of +200 damage.
Plus Sarevok is one of the coolest characters in the game _and_ the only one with two dual-class options without using Tomes/Machine of Lum the Mad. I think Dorn is 'Give all damage and take no damage' since in late ToB he fells dead after 4-6 hits while my PC and Korgan last 8-11 hits from enemies like Fire Giants #shitloadsofhp #CONover19