Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Weapon Proficiency mod

unholy_avengerunholy_avenger Member Posts: 29
Are there any mods for the enhanced editions that change the weapon proficiency system to the Icewind Dale/BG1 category system? Like Large Swords and Great Swords instead of Bastard Swords, Long swords, Two-handed swords, etc.

Comments

  • unholy_avengerunholy_avenger Member Posts: 29
    But does it work with the enhanced editions?

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863

    But does it work with the enhanced editions?

    Yes.

    SCARY_WIZARD
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    Yes, BG2 Tweaks is compatible with BGEE. There does appear to be a bug with the Altered Weapon Proficiencies component and Elf bow/sword THAC0 bonuses.

    http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=26089

    SCARY_WIZARD
  • JLEJLE Member Posts: 40
    Slightly belatedly into this discussion, but I kind of agree, I believe the BG2 weapon proficiencies are too restrictive for BG1. Even when you consider being able to find an appropriate non-magical weapon - in BG1, there's the chance that it will break, and your chance of finding a usable weapon while adventuring is much lower (under the BG1 system, if you lost your two-handed sword, you could at least pick up a longsword or a bastard sword and use it effectively, and if your short sword broke you could pick up and use a dagger).

    It's even worse in BG1 with magical weapons, given a much lower chance of finding the right kind of weapon because there are too many different weapon types. If you don't find the right magical weapons you can be stuck having to either be incompetent with what you find, or use normal weapons and risk running into opponents that require magical weapons to hit. And heaven help you if you don't have people with long sword or bastard sword proficiency (which in standard BG1 were the same thing, in BG2 are different things) when you get to Balduran's Isle and meet Karoug.

    In fact I have my doubts as to whether the BG2 weapon proficiency system even works that well in BG2: characters are limited, too early, to remarkably few weapons, with the result that some weapons which really SHOULD be great, are useless because nobody has the proficiency to wield them by the time you find them. While I don't really care if a mage wields a weapon (all they ever need is a sling for ranged weapons), a priest needs to be able to thump things as well as cast spells, and a thief needs to continue fighting after breaking cover for his backstab. BG2 covers clerics and thieves generally by having most of them be either part fighter (Jaheira, Anomen) or part mage (Aerie as a cleric, Jan as a thief, and of course Imoen - even Nalia can do thieving with enough potions), with only Yoshimo being an exception... and (a) he can be dualled to fighter if you want, and (b) we know what happens to him anyway.

    I would suggest that a solution would be, if using the BG2 system, to increase, possibly even double, the starting proficiencies: so mages get 2, clerics and thieves get 4, and fighters get 8 but should not be allowed to spend more than 2 points in any weapon proficiency slot at level 1. This would quickly become irrelevant at BG2 levels while providing useful compensation at BG1 levels.

    "Too many different types of weapon that you aren't any good at using" really does not sit well, in BG1, with the whole "non-magical weapons break thanks to the Iron Crisis and you can never find a magical weapon of the right type" thing.

    WithinAmnesia
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,238
    edited December 2015
    JLE said:

    I would suggest that a solution would be, if using the BG2 system, to increase, possibly even double, the starting proficiencies: so mages get 2, clerics and thieves get 4, and fighters get 8 but should not be allowed to spend more than 2 points in any weapon proficiency slot at level 1. This would quickly become irrelevant at BG2 levels while providing useful compensation at BG1 levels.

    This is one of the solutions I use in my mod: mages get 4 points at 1st level (but never any more after that), priests get 5, rogues get 6, rangers/paladins get 7, and fighters get 9. Max 1 point in any weapon at 1st level, so you *have* to spread them widely. Then fighters get new point every other level, so you can be specialized at level 2, GM by level 8, and GM in a 2nd weapon by level 16.

    It also collapses a few weapons together, so that your proficiency will often allow you to have a choice of what to wield. Especially if you also use BG2Tweaks' "2-handed Bastard Swords" component:
    - Greatsword proficiency: use 2-hand swords or bastard swords.
    - Long Sword prof: use long swords or bastard swords.
    - Curved Sword prof: use scimitars or katanas or wakizashi.
    - Polearms prof: use spears or halberds.
    - Maces prof: use maces or morning stars.
    - Knives prof: use daggers or darts.
    - Bows prof: use long bows or short bows.

    Clubs are weak in this system... actually, now that I think about it, I could probably rationalize combining clubs and staffs. (Staffs being, essentially, 2-handed clubs.) That would suddenly become a very interesting proficiency.

    Anyway I like where your head's at. You might like my mod, you should try it.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,869
    So bastard swords fall under two proficiencies? Is that a typo? How does that work in practice: sum proficiency points for both categories or highest number counts?

    Interesting concept to redistribute the weapons.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited December 2015

    JLE said:

    I would suggest that a solution would be, if using the BG2 system, to increase, possibly even double, the starting proficiencies: so mages get 2, clerics and thieves get 4, and fighters get 8 but should not be allowed to spend more than 2 points in any weapon proficiency slot at level 1. This would quickly become irrelevant at BG2 levels while providing useful compensation at BG1 levels.

    This is one of the solutions I use in my mod: mages get 4 points at 1st level (but never any more after that), priests get 5, rogues get 6, rangers/paladins get 7, and fighters get 9. Max 1 point in any weapon at 1st level, so you *have* to spread them widely. Then fighters get new point every other level, so you can be specialized at level 2, GM by level 8, and GM in a 2nd weapon by level 16.

    It also collapses a few weapons together, so that your proficiency will often allow you to have a choice of what to wield. Especially if you also use BG2Tweaks' "2-handed Bastard Swords" component:
    - Greatsword proficiency: use 2-hand swords or bastard swords.
    - Long Sword prof: use long swords or bastard swords.
    - Curved Sword prof: use scimitars or katanas or wakizashi.
    - Polearms prof: use spears or halberds.
    - Maces prof: use maces or morning stars.
    - Knives prof: use daggers or darts.
    - Bows prof: use long bows or short bows.

    Clubs are weak in this system... actually, now that I think about it, I could probably rationalize combining clubs and staffs. (Staffs being, essentially, 2-handed clubs.) That would suddenly become a very interesting proficiency.

    Anyway I like where your head's at. You might like my mod, you should try it.
    Combine club with mace and morning star. A mace is just a metal club. A morning star is a club with spikes.

    RAM021
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,238
    lroumen said:

    So bastard swords fall under two proficiencies?

    It only works that way if you install the BG2Tweaks component "2-handed bastard swords." That mod lets you switch bastard swords back and forth from being 1-handed weapons, to 2-handed weapons. If you install my mod after it, then bastard swords are used with the greatswords proficiency when wielded with 2 hands, and are used with the long sword proficiency when wielded with 1 hand. I think it's a fairly clever way to handle them.

    If you don't install that BG2Tweaks component, then my mod just lumps bastard swords into the long sword proficiency.

    @AstroBryGuy if I lump clubs in with maces and morning stars... I know that makes sense, but that proficiency would just be way more useful and powerful than the others. It's too much.

    Anyway I don't think the clubs in this game are really stereotypical clubs as most people think of them. A better description would be "baton" or "truncheon" ... like the police weapon. Long and thin and evenly balanced. Whereas, a mace or morning star is far heavier at the "business end" and it probably very different to use.

    lroumen[Deleted User]
  • WithinAmnesiaWithinAmnesia Member Posts: 920
    edited December 2018
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. The most simple answer is usually the most correct answer. Use real life skill sets as a model for weapon proficiencies.

    Crushing Weapons: Club, Mace, War Hammer, Morning Star, Flail, Battle Axe (an axe is just a sharp hammer)
    Polearms: Quarterstaff, Spear, Halberd
    Small Bladed Weapons: Dagger, Short Sword, Ninjatō, Wakizashi
    Large Bladed Weapons: Long Sword, Bastard Sword, Katana, Two-Handed Sword
    Throwing Weapons: Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer, Throwing Knife, Dart, Sling
    Bows: Short Bow, Long Bow, Composite Long Bow, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow

    Crushing Weapons -Why?- If you ever smashed in something with a blunt force trauma implement you carry over those skills to other weapons that focus crushing force in a concentrated area. If you use a hammer with skill and have it go missing you can use a club or even flail to great effect to get the job done.

    Polearms -Why?- If you ever used a staff or long stick with a center grip, you know that all polearms use the same techniques to succeed. If you grab a spear or halberd but know quarterstaff martial arts you know how to use both weapons for all spears and halberds are is staves with sharp bits at the end to help kill people.

    Small Bladed Weapons -Why?- If you are good at close quarters knife fighting and general stabbing business you can use a Dagger and Short Sword to great effect for both are close ranged stabbing weapons. The Ninjatō is straight for stabbing and the Wakizashi was used for Seppuku (stabbing your gut instead of fighting it out).

    Large Bladed Weapons -Why?- If you can swing a large sword you can use a Bastard Sword, Long Sword, Two-Handed Sword etc for they all use the same combat techniques, edge alignment, faints and general slashing business going on.

    Throwing Weapons -Why?- If you have ever thrown axes and knives and tossed stones with help you know about the wind-up of the arm and shoulder and just letting it rip SMACK! The trajectory and contortion skills of the body to maximize accuracy and velocity are roughly the same across Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer, Throwing Knife, Dart, Sling in real life.

    Bows -Why?- If you can shoot a bow you can shoot a crossbow, it uses the same projectile flight trajectory skills to hit a target. A crossbow just uses a different way to shoot again after loosing a flighted projectile (yes not firing, these are bow strings).



    Also rename Sword and Shield Style to One-Handed Weapon and Shield Style for the skill is not exclusive to swords and was just lazy writing.
    These are my thoughts on a reworked Weapon Proficiency System.

  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 863
    If I had my way, I'd go:

    Simple Blunts: Club, Mace, War Hammer, Morning Star. Simple things to swing 1handed with a blunt end.

    Flails: Not simple due to the chain or pivot point.

    Axe: not really a sharpened hammer.

    Polearms: Spear, Halberd, maybe Staff.

    Short Blades, which are designed for stabbing. Dagger, Short Sword, Ninja-to

    1 handed Long blades, which are designed for slicing. Wakizashi, long sword, scimitar, maybe bastard sword.

    2 handed long blades. Two-handed swords, Greatswords, katana, maybe bastard sword.

    Throwing weapons: everything ranged except bow, crossbow, sling

    slings.

    bows. Short or long, they are used literally the same.

    crossbows are not stick bows.

    Bastard sword screw things up by being on the edge of one handed or two handed for common use. Katana are similar, but are traditionally used two-handed for speed and power.

  • AvGurAvGur Member Posts: 17
    edited December 2018
    Merry Christmas!

    Katana
    used in two hands (g3 tweaks) are very similar to 2-handed sword and should use this profeciency. We have same animations for character attacks, so there no place to say that fencing with katana is different than with zweihander.

    Bastard sword
    used with two hands (g3 tweaks) are from same kategory (2h sword).
    Both katana and bastard are much heavier than long sword, especially katana, as it's blade has \/ form to cleave better. So, to use them in one hand You need not only enough strength but training also. You should consider to merge (1handed) katana and bastard in one category, like katana is a rare eastern bastard. Used in one hand it should grant -2 off-hand thac0 as Your balance are not as good as without it (cumulative effect, so two bastards and katanas = -4 to off-hand).

    War hammer and axe
    are very similar to use, so there no need to separate them.
    But in BG we have a sladgehammer animation for weapon that deals war hammer damage. This could be fixed only by adjusting proper damage (d10?) and strength (17?) requirements, and lowering hammer speed (10?). That way it's a completely different weapons. Or, we could completely ignore animation and combine it in war hammer\axe category. Let's dance and sing, it's a fantasy!

    Morgenstern
    = club with spikes, no need to separate it from clubs.
    I like @subtledoctor 's idea to merge staff to club category. We don't need another training to take large club with both hands. Brilliant!

    Mace
    have a very different balance from the club, so it could have own category or can be merged with (sledge)hammer if we give it stats of heavy mace, or with club\MS like light mace.

    Wakizashi
    is a rare eastern short sword.

    Ninja-to
    It's very complicated question. There was no ninja uniform or standart ninja weapons. Most of weapons that we associated with them was a regular farmers equipment with few additions that could be easily hiden in any commoner's wear. Ninjas always acted under cover, Japan is very inhabited country and castles of feudal dukes wasn't located in deserts, so person that act under cover should go through many crowded places and would be seen by many guards, so wielding of "ninja sword" will broke they cover. Ninja-to is a myth, even wiki can't argue that. But there is something behind this myth. Ninja could make standart wakizashi (not katana, as katana was only for samurais) shorter and use free space in scabbard to hide poison or any objects. So, ninja-to is a short wakizashi-like sword.

    Short sword
    is not for swings, it's for thrust, as dagger is, so they could be combined in one category, if animation percentage properly adjusted to use more thrusting.

    Long sword
    could have own category, but if You want to diversify profeciencies, than it could be merged with bastard\katana (1handed). As it requires much less strength it should work fine.

    Scimitar
    is a completely different from ninja-to and wakizashi as from any other sword. Technic of fight with it also is much different. Problem is that we have weapon named scimitar, but with falcion animation. Falcion weigth, balance and usage is very close to axe. So we shoud fix it. First variant, change its name and stats but save animation. Second is changing it's appearence to use katana animation. This variant requires creating copy of scimitar inventory animation (bam and plt) and all katana animations for all sizes (i can help with that) with new name, like wqYs0XX (where Y for creature size and s0 is a new weapon animation) and patch all existing scimitars to use it. Or third way, combine two previous, so we get some falcions and some properly animated scimitars. Or let's forget about history and start to dance and sing, it's fantasy!

    Spear
    have many common with halberd, so it could be merged.

    Two handed axe (if any)
    can't be merged with halberd, as it use completely different technic. You wouldn't believe me, but real medieval person with halberd actually cut with their wide blade, not chop or cleave with axe-like swings.

    Short bow and long bow
    are different, really, but not in bg, couse we have only one animation for both, so let's keep them together or separated, as You like.

    p.s
    Do anyone have Igi's Learn throuch use mod, that gives You profeciency points only for weapons that You actually used. Role-play wise it's a brilliant idea. Too bad I can't find it anymore, as other Igi's mods. In line with getting XP points for learning spells and open locks, I hope someone will manage to make a mod that grants XP not for killig, but for combat itself (make hit, take damage). What doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. That way we could level up as non-serial killers

    RAM021
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    edited December 2018
    AvGur said:

    Katana
    used in two hands (g3 tweaks) are very similar to 2-handed sword and should use this profeciency. We have same animations for character attacks, so there no place to say that fencing with katana is different than with zweihander.

    Could not disagree more. Two-handed swords rely more on their mass and the strength of the wielder to be effective. Katanas and wakizashis are light, slashing weapons that rely more on dexterity and control. Trying to use them like a two-hander is not going to be very effective. Also, they were designed to solve very different problems as katanas don't do much to plate other than leave some scratches.

    And yes, I can't stand that katanas are one-handed weapons in the game.
    AvGur said:

    Do anyone have Igi's Learn throuch use mod, that gives You profeciency points only for weapons that You actually used.

    I've poked igi on Discord; I'll let you know if I hear anything.

    edit: igi's got his stuff on Github: https://github.com/btigi?tab=repositories

    Post edited by CamDawg on
    RAM021
  • AvGurAvGur Member Posts: 17
    edited December 2018
    Thanks for the link.

    As for katana, sword from hollywood movies and japanese medieval katana have not much common.
    Medieval japanese armor was vey good, so swords of that time was much heavier. Looking on the length of a blade, katana in BG2 is a "tachi", that was the primary battlefield sword from 9th till end of 16th century.
    Katana and wakizashi can't be described as similar.
    Sword that realy relies on dexterity is scimitar due to its construction made for cut ( blade - IJ ), katana ( blade - V ), expecialy heavy one, have a form that slash greatly without any additional training and can benefit from dextery no more than any other sword including zweihander. Look on this soldier, he succesfully wields katana for the first time with no training as ordinar sword
    youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo

    Again, medieval field sword and 21st century kill-bill "katana" is not the same.

    RAM021
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    We covered this in greater detail before with much smarter people than myself. Your tl;dr is that, as already mentioned, the technique and use is completely different than a European two-hander.

  • AvGurAvGur Member Posts: 17
    Suggested tread is so long that it hurts my eyes halfway. :D
    My point is, You CAN use zweihander slashing or piercing technic with katana with great success without additional treining.
    Animation used in BG are not from nowday katana, it's a tachi, much longer and heavier version of katana, as it used in time when samurais weared heavy armour. Nowday katana is lighter and 40-60sm shorter with blade length only 80cm, as long sword. Go in game and compare them. 17th to 19th century katana was much lighter. Movie katana is from late 19th century where it become even more lighter and worse it was mass-produced by industry (cheap sh**t), as it lost real value exept as honour sign (guns=no need in armour=no need in heavy sword). Both tachi and zweihander can't penetrate full plate (with gambeson underneath), but it can couse blunt trauma without penetration and lethal wound to unprotected area.
    BG don't have both different animation for fencing with katana and proper mentor to teach us to do it, so why gaijin barbarians should have another profeciency for sword that they wielded as regular zweihander? Ahh, yes, there is one reason - imagination, we are in fantasy!
    As a fan of medieval Japan culture You would be happy to play dedicated Throne of Darkness game, it's very good and have more types of REAL swords and technics shown ingame!
    Don't take it personal. o:)

Sign In or Register to comment.