What damage type are flails?

thesoloer

I think I read somewhere that flails are blunt and piercing damage at the same time? Is crushing damage the same thing as blunt damage?

booinyoureyes

hm... I think if someone made a general guide to what each type of damage is and what they mean, what is immune to them, etc. it would be extremely helpful

I hate having to scrummage through the internet to find out what can damage Golem A vs Golem B. This kind of guide would make things much easier, and answer questions like this.

JuliusBorisov

The term "Blunt" was used in the vanilla BG1. The vanilla BG1 proficiency system had "Blunt Weapons" and "Spiked Weapons".

In the vanilla BG1 flails along with morning stars were Spiked Weapons.

The "crushing damage" appeared in BG2. It is used in both BG:EE and BG2:EE. Basically, the crushing damage is the same thing as the blunt damage in terms of BG2, BG:EE and BG2:EE.

So, flails have only the crushing damage, no piercing damage. BTW, the crushing damage is by far the most effective throughout the series, it's better to hit against most armors, it's effective against skeletons, mustard jellies, clay golems, etc.

EDIT: Finally I've managed to find out that in the vanilla BG1 flails had "Crushing" damage type.

So, in terms of flails there's a proficiency type - Spiked Weapons in BG1 and Flails & Morning stars in BG2, BG:EE and BG2:EE. Also there's a damage type - crushing in all the games. No piercing damage for flails.

"Blunt Weapons" was a proficiency type in BG1 and included maces, warhammers, clubs and staffs.

But now on the forums people seem to mix "Blunt" and "Crusing" words so they mean basically the same.

lunar

Piercing damage is the worst type, resisted by most enemies. Skeletons, jellies, clay golems etc. have massive piercing damage resistances. Crushing fixes them nicely, though. Only Shambling mound is resistant to crushing attacks IIRC. Clay golems need blunt weapons. Blunt, enchanted weapons.

thesoloer

Clay golems get hurt by all crushing weapons? Including flails?

elminster

thesoloer said:

Clay golems get hurt by all crushing weapons? Including flails?

Yes

CrevsDaak

In the only game that Spiked weapons also dealt piercing damage was in PS:T, or at least is what they were supposed to do.

abazigal5

Some of the clerics I create can't use flails and some can. Why?

elminster

abazigal5 said:

Some of the clerics I create can't use flails and some can. Why?

What is their strength? Flails require your character to have 13 strength.

CrevsDaak

abazigal5 said:

Some of the clerics I create can't use flails and some can. Why?

... Because their STR is too low? Flails have a high requirement of STR.

Tresset

The only weapons that have multiple damage types at the same time (currently) are Halberds; which do slashing and piercing damage. This is a new feature that was introduced somewhere along the line in EE. If you ask me though, mourning stars (and maybe even flails) would do well with crushing and piercing damage at the same time. It would be very easy to mod flails and mourning stars to be like this; by the way.

meagloth

Tresset said:

The only weapons that have multiple damage types at the same time (currently) are Halberds; which do slashing and piercing damage. This is a new feature that was introduced somewhere along the line in EE. If you ask me though, mourning stars (and maybe even flails) would do well with crushing and piercing damage at the same time. It would be very easy to mod flails and mourning stars to be like this; by the way.

If you want to go there, in real life a longsword would be used to poke and slash, and spears are also capable slashing weapons, contrary to popular belief. And I don't think "missile damage" is a thing, but whatever.

FinaLfront

I think missile damage could describe sling bullets. They are definitely not piercing or slashing, and not quite crushing.

meagloth

@FinaLfront‌ actually, a sling would definitely be crushing. Slings are not toys shooting marbles like you might think. Ammo for a (legit) sling would be a large rock or lead bullet weighing up to a pound, and was thrown, (if memory serves) around 100 miles/hour. Now, if a good sized rock is hitting your face at 100 miles an hour, maybe more, what kind of damage todo you think that is? Besides ouchy.

FinaLfront

Never said they were toys. Bullets are indeed a blunt type, a category that has since been removed from the EE. Crushing is such specific effect, where something small flying toward you is more of a smash. Generally "crush" means something being squeezed in between 2 things, and I don't think it's a good representation of any kind of weapon honestly. So IMO missile damage would best represent a bullet whereas blunt is absent.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

Does that mean that Flails get Strength bonuses like Warhammers or Quarterstaves?

@booinyoureyes >Very much agree that it would be helpful to have one place to go to that really had complete detailed specs. But that would be too easy....!! LOL

elminster

Eadwyn_G8keeper said:

Does that mean that Flails get Strength bonuses like Warhammers or Quarterstaves?

Any weapon used in melee gets a strength bonus. Some ranged weapons (axes and slings) also get this (though it may be bugged with certain slings at the moment).

CrevsDaak

elminster said:

(though it may be bugged with certain slings at the moment).

It's bugged only with throwing daggers and only in the release version of BG2:EE. Can't speak for some of BG2:EE's slings as I only used two (plain and Erevard's) in my run.

elminster

CrevsDaak said:

elminster said:

(though it may be bugged with certain slings at the moment).

It's bugged only with throwing daggers and only in the release version of BG2:EE. Can't speak for some of BG2:EE's slings as I only used two (plain and Erevard's) in my run.

Wild sling and lupine sling apparently aren't getting it.

CrevsDaak

elminster said:

CrevsDaak said:

elminster said:

(though it may be bugged with certain slings at the moment).

It's bugged only with throwing daggers and only in the release version of BG2:EE. Can't speak for some of BG2:EE's slings as I only used two (plain and Erevard's) in my run.

Wild sling and lupine sling apparently aren't getting it.

EE-added stuff (and from what I see in their filenames), from Neera's quest, which I badly broke :P during SoA (not a bug- unaware player).

Tresset

@elminster‌ @CrevsDaak The slings and things are that are bugged are the ones that added a strength bonus to damage in the original BG2. The bug is that they add both a strength and dexterity bonus to thac0. There are two affected slings which are Everard and Seeking. I believe the rest are ok.

elminster

Tresset said:

@elminster‌ @CrevsDaak The slings and things are that are bugged are the ones that added a strength bonus to damage in the original BG2. The bug is that they add both a strength and dexterity bonus to thac0. There are two affected slings which are Everard and Seeking. I believe the rest are ok.

I just got what I wrote from #7152 (which is fixed now but wouldn't have been for the latest released patch).

abazigal5

CrevsDaak said:

abazigal5 said:

Some of the clerics I create can't use flails and some can. Why?

... Because their STR is too low? Flails have a high requirement of STR.

Okay. That makes sense. Thanks, @CrevsDaak and @elminster.

DreadKhan

meagloth said:

@FinaLfront‌ actually, a sling would definitely be crushing. Slings are not toys shooting marbles like you might think. Ammo for a (legit) sling would be a large rock or lead bullet weighing up to a pound, and was thrown, (if memory serves) around 100 miles/hour. Now, if a good sized rock is hitting your face at 100 miles an hour, maybe more, what kind of damage todo you think that is? Besides ouchy.

You know how volumous a 1lb rock tends to be? My point though, many people thst used slings carried at least 2 completely different ammo, the larger, which could cause serious injury but rarely cause death, and much smaller ammunition for greater speed and thus penetration. These would be more lethal, and could punch through a skull.

Spears can slash (risk of damage to socket/pole if you strike something solid), and slashing swords can be used to stab (if you dont mind risking warping your blade), but this isnt what they were optimized for. You can also club a guy with a rifle, it works, and it can be a very good tactic (very popular in WW1, if you didnt carry your shovel!)... but we both know a rifle is better at shooting.

It should be intuitive, but the differences crushing, slashing and piercing can be grasped by thinking mainly about the type of injury a weapon causes. Missile btw I would assume should just be mostly piercing.

Flails assuredly do not have to have spikes, but morningstars always have spikes. Morningstar wihout spikes is a mace or cudgel.