Feature to keep NPC's that hate each other from breaking into a fight

AlexDeLarge

I was thinking that we shouldn't be limited in our party composition based on the fact that some NPC's (like Keldorn and Viconia) eventually fight each other. So i've come up with a simple solution which alse makes sense RP wise: If your main character has a natural charisma of 18 or higher, then he has the ability to become a mediator and help resolve any internal party conflict. Maybe add a few extra lines of written dialogue to show that those said NPC's have come to an understanding and nobody fights each other/leaves the party. What do u think?

Edvin

This is not a good idea.

CHARNAME: Minsc, this guy will be our new companion.
Minsc: Who is he?
CHARNAME: Just a guy who killed the woman which you swore to protect (I better omitted my participation).
Minsc: Go for the eyes, boo. GO FOR THE EYES! YAAUURGH!
CHARNAME: (Charisma check... 18) Be nice Minsc.
Minsc: ......Ok.

You can not command people, whom must love or hate.

AstroBryGuy

There is a component of BG2 Tweaks to do this.

http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/cheats.php

AlexDeLarge

@Edvin When you put it like that, it sounds ridiculous, but here is an example of a more sensible reasoning:

"Charname to Minsc: Minsc, i know you probably hate his guts right now and you would love to put a sword between his eyes, but for now, put your differences aside, for we have a greater enemy to deal with, one that could prove to be the demise of us all if we don't work together to stop him. Dynaheir would have wanted you to do this. And if we succeed in doing that, you have my blessing to unleash the wrath of Boo upon that red wizard cunt"

Charname to Edwin: "Magnificent one, why must you lower yourself to the intellect of this mongoloid who thinks his pet hamster is a being from another dimension, he's clearly insane and unstable. I need your extraordinary talents to defeat Sarevok, and this Minsc fellow could prove a useful tool in achieving that task, we do need a meat shield after all he he. When this is all over, and if he somehow survives that ordeal, feel free to polymorph him into a hamster so he can live with his pal Boo happily ever after. "

U see where i'm going with this, it's definitely doable with some good script writing.

@AstroBryGuy Problem with that component is it removes the conflict dialogues altogether.

Also, regarding the Keldorn - Viconia conflict. I think it would be great if the Charname could help them find common ground, considering Keldorn is a racist, it would help promote a good message in general for tolerance. Something that is valued in today's politically correct world.

SharGuidesMyHand

AlexDeLarge said:

Also, regarding the Keldorn - Viconia conflict. I think it would be great if the Charname could help them find common ground, considering Keldorn is a racist, it would help promote a good message in general for tolerance. Something that is valued in today's politically correct world.

I always found it ironic that guys like Keldorn and Ajantis are supposed to be "good" aligned, yet they're always the first to judge and attack another character based solely on their skin color or heritage. I would've loved to have seen a situation where one of them gets "reformed" or "enlightened" in some way on this issue.

BTW, I love your Youtube videos.

Edvin

AlexDeLarge said:

Also, regarding the Keldorn - Viconia conflict. I think it would be great if the Charname could help them find common ground, considering Keldorn is a racist, it would help promote a good message in general for tolerance. Something that is valued in today's politically correct world.

Have you ever heard term Lawful stupid?
It makes no sense debating with paladins, it is common knowledge.

Edvin

SharGuidesMyHand said:

I always found it ironic that guys like Keldorn and Ajantis are supposed to be "good" aligned, yet they're always the first to judge and attack another character based solely on their skin color or heritage.

This is a little more complex problem.
"Absolute good" is almost as bad as "Absolute evil".
But it is a bit complicated to explain, and I fear that that my English is not good enough.

Therefore I will give a few examples:

1) Gabriel from movie Constantine
2) Trias from Planescape Torment
3) Inarius from Sin War trilogy (Diablo books)
4) One episode "Charmed" with ultimate Good and ultimate Bad world

winters

Edvin said:

This is a little more complex problem.
"Absolute good" is almost as bad as "Absolute evil".

I tend to agree, but I need to add something. It's the rather common ethics vs morals conflict. Individuals with strong both ethics (lawfulness) and morals (fairness) somehow tend to prefer the former, as if using common sense damaged their ethics, but not the other way around. The explanation for this is quite simple, really. If one makes such a mistake, it hurts less if flawed law is to blame, not one's personal choice. Law is the collective construct and because of that the sense of responsibility for it often gets blurred. LGodness doesn't cancel out human nature, apparently.
Like they say, summum ius, summa iniuria - supreme lawfulness equals supreme injustice.

SharGuidesMyHand

Edvin said:

Have you ever heard term Lawful stupid?

"Lawful stupid" is more applicable to lawful neutral than lawful good.

Lawful good characters have a concern for people's individual well-being and civil rights. Lawful neutral characters are the ones who just mindlessly adhere to a set of principles or instructions.

Edvin

SharGuidesMyHand said:

"Lawful stupid" is more applicable to lawful neutral than lawful good.

I do not know from which country you come from, but where I come from, we use this phrase as sarcasm to express paladins blind fate and moral standards.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Lawful Stupid
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Lawful_Stupid

karnor00

AlexDeLarge said:

Also, regarding the Keldorn - Viconia conflict. I think it would be great if the Charname could help them find common ground, considering Keldorn is a racist, it would help promote a good message in general for tolerance. Something that is valued in today's politically correct world.

There was a debate in another thread about this. Keldorn hating Viconia doesn't make him a racist - he doesn't hate her because she is a drow, but because she is evil. Keldorn, being able to detect evil, would know this.
In other dialogue Keldorn shows a lot of respect for Drizzt, who is also a drow.

If anything, the inconsistency is that Keldorn allows himself to be in a group with other evil characters - something which no paladin should allow.

Edvin

Let's face it, AlexDeLarge wants a world without prejudice, world full of love, tolerance and understanding.
It is unrealistic in real world and in BG is it even more unrealistic, because BG contains much more races, gods and culturally very different groups.

P.S
We need to send a man with 18 charisma to North Korea.
And one more to Afghanistan, Kuba and few more countries.

Twani

Viconia belongs to a religion that requires the sacrifice of innocent humans, don't forget. That's... a pretty good reason for any sort of good being to attack her.

CrevsDaak

@Edvin

Edvin said:

P.S
We need to send a man with 18 charisma to North Korea.
And one more to Afghanistan, Kuba and few more countries.

Send one to Iran/Iraq, another one to Venezuela and another man to USA, to see if we convince them to follow Marx :P

Blackraven

Edvin said:

Let's face it, AlexDeLarge wants a world without prejudice, world full of love, tolerance and understanding.
It is unrealistic in real world and in BG is it even more unrealistic, because BG contains much more races, gods and culturally very different groups.

P.S
We need to send a man with 18 charisma to North Korea.
And one more to Afghanistan, Kuba and few more countries.

Well 18 CHA does work in many countries. Unlike the "rogue states" you mentioned, the "civilized" west is replete with charismatic idiots and puppets that do a great job at keeping folks dumb.

Blackraven

Twani said:

Viconia belongs to a religion that requires the sacrifice of innocent humans, don't forget. That's... a pretty good reason for any sort of good being to attack her.

That's a very extreme point of view I can't support. Her mere adherence to Shar should never be a reason for good aligned people to kill her. It would be different if she were demonstrably involved in the practice of sacrificing humans, but she isn't.

Twani

She's a cleric of Shar. She has to kill innocents to remain in favor with Shar.

Now, that's sort of abstract in the game (similar to Hexxat having to feed off of humans), but I would have no problem attacking her and Tiax, both being of religions that require the sacrifice of intelligent human beings of their priesthood.

Edvin

Blackraven said:

Edvin said:

P.S
We need to send a man with 18 charisma to North Korea.
And one more to Afghanistan, Kuba and few more countries.

Well 18 CHA does work in many countries. Unlike the "rogue states" you mentioned, the "civilized" west is replete with charismatic idiots and puppets that do a great job at keeping folks dumb.

That was obviously sarcasm xD
To be able to be charismatic, people might not be intelligent.

However, often is charismatic idiot, far more capable than any smart aleck.
This sad truth can be seen in politics.

Edvin

Blackraven said:

Twani said:

Viconia belongs to a religion that requires the sacrifice of innocent humans, don't forget. That's... a pretty good reason for any sort of good being to attack her.

That's a very extreme point of view I can't support. Her mere adherence to Shar should never be a reason for good aligned people to kill her. It would be different if she were demonstrably involved in the practice of sacrificing humans, but she isn't.

True, on standards dark gods Shar is not so bad.
Lolth, Cyric, Bhall, Myrkul and Ilmater (This one I really hate) these are true evil gods.
Dark moon monks are only fanatics and those are bad in each religion.

SapphireIce101

Ilmater has more going on with his portfolio than just suffering. Depending on the edition, he also has Perseverance, Martyrdom, and Endurance as part of his portfolio.

Ilmater is also basically best friends with Tyr and Torm.

So, is Ilmater all kinds of evil? Not really, in fact, he hates Shar, Cyric, Bhaal, Myrkul, Talona, etc. Heck, He hates Loviatar, the Mistress of Pain, and attempts to save her worshippers from her form of torment. When it comes to alignment Ilmater is Lawful Stupid Lawful Good.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater

There's the link if you want to read up on Ilmater some more.


As for the topic at hand.

Let the NPCs fight! It adds flavor, and character to the NPCs, at least in my opinion it does.

Edvin

SapphireIce101 said:

So, is Ilmater all kinds of evil? Not really, in fact, he hates Shar, Cyric, Bhaal, Myrkul, Talona, etc. Heck, He hates Loviatar, the Mistress of Pain, and attempts to save her worshippers from her form of torment. When it comes to alignment Ilmater is Lawful Stupid Lawful Good.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater

There's the link if you want to read up on Ilmater some more.

Do not worry, I know his history very well :-)

Earlier I mentioned here, is not "good" as good.
Lawful Good/Stupid god is sometime even bigger disaster than Lawful Evil god.

1) He usually chose not to defend himself, instead simply taking and absorbing the damage.
Kind, but stupid.
2) He have self-crippling Emo priests...
Only stupid.
3) Most forgiving god ever, you just need to repent and he forgive you everything.
Again, only stupid

Allowing worship gods like him is EVIL !

Loub

SapphireIce101 said:

Ilmater has more going on with his portfolio than just suffering. Depending on the edition, he also has Perseverance, Martyrdom, and Endurance as part of his portfolio.

Ilmater is also basically best friends with Tyr and Torm.

So, is Ilmater all kinds of evil? Not really, in fact, he hates Shar, Cyric, Bhaal, Myrkul, Talona, etc. Heck, He hates Loviatar, the Mistress of Pain, and attempts to save her worshippers from her form of torment. When it comes to alignment Ilmater is Lawful Stupid Lawful Good.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater

There's the link if you want to read up on Ilmater some more.


As for the topic at hand.

Let the NPCs fight! It adds flavor, and character to the NPCs, at least in my opinion it does.

Er... No.
Ilmater is only Lawful Good on paper - his actions and personality are far more befitting for one of the Neutral Good alignment, for example: a dry, sarcastic, snarky and morbid sense of humor (which is also very common among his clergy, which leads my Game Master to loathe all my Archivists of Ilmater); a willingness to alleviate the suffering and dearth of everyone, no matter their outlooks; very strong alliances with Chaotic gods, most notably Sune Firehair, so much that I would describe his relationship with her to be much better than that with any of the gods of the Triad; and finally, the acceptance of Chaotic Good priests into the ranks of his faithful (in 2e and 4e).
His alignment is so unfitting that 4e changed him to 'Good' instead of putting him into the 'Lawful Good' category: the only reason he was Lawful was because of his subservience to Tyr, which as we all know, is gone as of 4e.

Also, as anyone with at least a quarter of a brain can attest: Viconia is only Evil on paper - her personality and actions are far more befitting to that of a type 6 True Neutral character ("don't bother me and I won't bother you") - only those who wrong her are ever punished (farmers in beregost), to those who don't, she is partial, in fact even helpful towards (caravan leader) - she is also very naïve towards the ways of the surface: it is pretty clear she knows she can't use the ways of the drow anymore, but yet she finds the way of the humans alien, so she shuns contact in fear of reprieve. Her worship of Shar is pretty much more of a lip service than anything, so much that in her epilogues she ends up forsaken by her dark goddess. Never does she seek much in the way of destruction or malediction, nor glory, she just strives to survive yet another day by any means possible, which usually means hiding from society or shielding herself by accompanying CHARNAME.

Loub

Edvin said:

SapphireIce101 said:

So, is Ilmater all kinds of evil? Not really, in fact, he hates Shar, Cyric, Bhaal, Myrkul, Talona, etc. Heck, He hates Loviatar, the Mistress of Pain, and attempts to save her worshippers from her form of torment. When it comes to alignment Ilmater is Lawful Stupid Lawful Good.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilmater

There's the link if you want to read up on Ilmater some more.

Do not worry, I know his history very well :-)

Earlier I mentioned here, is not "good" as good.
Lawful Good/Stupid god is sometime even bigger disaster than Lawful Evil god.

1) He usually chose not to defend himself, instead simply taking and absorbing the damage.
Kind, but stupid.
2) He have self-crippling Emo priests...
Only stupid.
3) Most forgiving god ever, you just need to repent and he forgive you everything.
Again, only stupid

Allowing worship gods like him is EVIL !

Don't spread your ignorance, birdbrain, Ilmater belongs to an entirely different category of stupid than that: he clearly belongs to Stupid Good, as all of your listings make clear. I suggest you try to do some research on a subject before trying to confront those infinitely you grander on those matters.

And yes, in case you're wondering, I am joking.

AlexDeLarge

Alright alright you guys are reading way too much into this, my point was very simple: If the protagonist is sufficiently charismatic and convincing, he should be able to get two people of opposing views to get along for a short term (i'm not saying they have to love each other all of a sudden), when they need to work together to stop a much greater evil.

Nonnahswriter

It could work in certain situations, like Keldorn and Viconia for example. I'd go so far as to say JaheiraxKhalid versus MontaronxXzar could be avoided as well. ("Look, guys, we all want the same thing--to investigate the mines. Kill yourselves afterwards if you like, but why don't we put aside our differences and get this done now instead of later?")

The biggest no-no I can think of is Minsc vs. Edwin. Not only is Edwin a haughty evil creep who threatens--and tries!--to kill Minsc's partner Dynaheir, but consider Minsc's rage-tendencies. Kinda hard to "reason" with a berserking, 18/93 STR, giant-sword-using ranger, especially if Dynaheir's safety is in question.