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Shadowdancers

A few recent posts describe the shadowdancer as an interesting thief kit.
However i really don't understand why (at least from a mechanical point of view)

- it's a kit so it's either for single or dual class. For dual, due to limited skill points progression, you are basically forced to put everything in HIS/MS, which severly limits your efficiency as a thief.

For their special bonus :
- +1 to saving throws is nice but hardly decisive
- HIPS allows you to rehide mid fight. This is nice but you can anyway use corners to do that, whatever your kit.
- shadowstep is also quite good but it seems quite redundant with HIPS. Furthermore, there is other ways to get away from a fight (invisibility from potions or rings)

For their malus :
- 15 skill points/level. That's as bad as an assassin. The problem, once more is that this class focus on HIS/MS which are very expensive to get to interesting levels.
- worse backstab multiplier
- no HLA traps.

Overall i could argue that the kit is weaker than a vanilla thief (easily replicable bonus, harsh penalties).

Furthermore other thieves kits are great :
- swashbucklers are basically Fighter/Thieves without backstab
- assassin have the ultimately OP poison weapon and an improved backstab multiplier.
- bounty hunters are great if you like traps

Could someone explain to me why they think the class is good? Or is it only for RP purpose (they are indeed quite nice for that)

Comments

  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited May 2014
    well all I can say is in bg1 vanilla the ai cant handle HIP so it makes things incredibly easy/cheesy

    personally I found it tedious it has some good applications for dual classing tho.
    Post edited by element on
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Could you detail the good applications it has for dual classing ?
    I don't see how it can compare positively compared to assassin or swash dual.
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 540
    most opponents in tob see through invisibility though, so i can't really see it being all that useful anymore
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758
    Confirmed. It's worth it to be a Shadowdancer just to HiPS when being approached by Noober.

    Seriously, after the Shadowdancer had been nerfed (with a 6 seconds cooldown period) this class became uninteresting to me. Chain backstabs were so good, although they were considered OP by some people, but they were cool.

    Now I prefer an Assassin. This kit is much more both entertaining and powerful than the Shadowdancer.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @mumumomo I think you misunderstand the function of this kit. It's got superior defensive abilities. Killing a well played SD is quite impossible.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    simples said:

    most opponents in tob see through invisibility though, so i can't really see it being all that useful anymore

    That's when the kit basically becomes a tank thanks to UAI and Shadow Form. As much as a thief can ever hope to be a tank anyways.

    Alternatively you could also probably take advantage of the shadow twin and use it for scrolls, wands, and charged items.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    elminster said:

    simples said:

    most opponents in tob see through invisibility though, so i can't really see it being all that useful anymore

    That's when the kit basically becomes a tank thanks to UAI and Shadow Form. As much as a thief can ever hope to be a tank anyways.

    Alternatively you could also probably take advantage of the shadow twin and use it for scrolls, wands, and charged items.
    Shadow twin is super OP. I don't know If this is a bug, but the twin can make a twin of itself, so you get like 3-4, I think. And it can use items.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    meagloth said:

    elminster said:

    simples said:

    most opponents in tob see through invisibility though, so i can't really see it being all that useful anymore

    That's when the kit basically becomes a tank thanks to UAI and Shadow Form. As much as a thief can ever hope to be a tank anyways.

    Alternatively you could also probably take advantage of the shadow twin and use it for scrolls, wands, and charged items.
    Shadow twin is super OP. I don't know If this is a bug, but the twin can make a twin of itself, so you get like 3-4, I think. And it can use items.
    Last I checked second generation twins (twin of a twin) can't actually use items. They just sort of exist.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Thanks for all the answers. I am must say i am still not really convinced about the kit.

    @Gotural, In multi i can see the point of the class.
    But the thing is multi kit are not allowed by the defaut game engine. And let's face it single class thieves suck incredibly in fighting (i really don't think dual shadow dancer -> something can work unless you are willing to dual very late).
    The repetitive HIPS tactic may work but it's incredibly boring and tedious (at least for me). Furthermore all thieves can do it by using corners or the staff of the magi (with UAI)

    @FinneousPJ‌, infinite invisibility is indeed very nice but :
    - a lot of strong opponents see through invisibility
    - getting an "invicible" character who has weak offense and is unable to take damage for others (he will not be targeted) seems quite useless though. As an alternative (slight exageration) you could park your thief on a corner of the map...





  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I'm not arguing whether it's good or bad (in this game), I'm just saying that's its niche.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    With Shadow Twin & Vhailor's Helm, couldn't you basically have three guys swinging Carsomyr/Ravager/Staff of Ram?
    That sounds pretty nasty.
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    3 guys with 1 APR and a THACO of 10?

    Not really nasty if you ask me.
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