Hexxat or Sarevok: The Best Evil Thief
Elrandir
Member Posts: 1,664
I had a random thought today, wondering which of these two would be the better thief in a fully evil party. Obviously Sarevok is not a thief originally, but many people like to dual him into one. Hexxat, although she has somewhat ridiculous stats for a thief, is merely a single class thief, while Sarevok has the advantages of his fighter levels. I'm providing some basic stat lists, just so people can see a bit of the differences between the two. These lists only show their abilities, so any other information will have to be found by people better at searching than me.
Hexxat:
Single class Thief:
STR: 14 (20)
DEX: 16 (20)
CON: 14
INT: 12 (14)
WIS: 10 (12)
CHA: 14 (18)
As most of you probably know, Hexxat is a vampire, and during the day she's forced to wear a cloak that decreases her abilities, but still allows her to move around in the day. Obviously her nighttime abilities are far better, but she only has these abilities (that even outweigh some of Sarevok's) for half the day. And if you're like me, you prefer to travel during the day, making her even less impressive. On the other hand, she's fine indoors, no matter the time, so if ToB takes place mostly indoors, (as I believe it does) then you've got the superior abilities.
Sarevok:
Single class Fighter:
STR: 18/00
DEX: 17
CON: 18
INT: 17
WIS: 10
CHA: 15
Obviously there's one huge problem with Sarevok as a thief; Dual classing. It means he'll have a long downtime before he's really ready to crush your foes. Fortunately, thieves not only level quickly, but they're also not supposed to crush your foes. What they are supposed to do, however, is use thief skills. And Sarevok will lack in those for a while. Once you're finally done leveling him back up, however, you have a thieving grandmaster greatsword wielder with great stats.
Obviously, I prefer Sarevok. I don't generally like dual classing, but Sarevok is soooo much cooler than Hexxat in every way. That said, I don't know which is better. So I'm letting you guys decide.
Edit: For the record, the third option is one third joke, one third serious, and one third "I just want to see what other's say."
Hexxat:
Single class Thief:
STR: 14 (20)
DEX: 16 (20)
CON: 14
INT: 12 (14)
WIS: 10 (12)
CHA: 14 (18)
As most of you probably know, Hexxat is a vampire, and during the day she's forced to wear a cloak that decreases her abilities, but still allows her to move around in the day. Obviously her nighttime abilities are far better, but she only has these abilities (that even outweigh some of Sarevok's) for half the day. And if you're like me, you prefer to travel during the day, making her even less impressive. On the other hand, she's fine indoors, no matter the time, so if ToB takes place mostly indoors, (as I believe it does) then you've got the superior abilities.
Sarevok:
Single class Fighter:
STR: 18/00
DEX: 17
CON: 18
INT: 17
WIS: 10
CHA: 15
Obviously there's one huge problem with Sarevok as a thief; Dual classing. It means he'll have a long downtime before he's really ready to crush your foes. Fortunately, thieves not only level quickly, but they're also not supposed to crush your foes. What they are supposed to do, however, is use thief skills. And Sarevok will lack in those for a while. Once you're finally done leveling him back up, however, you have a thieving grandmaster greatsword wielder with great stats.
Obviously, I prefer Sarevok. I don't generally like dual classing, but Sarevok is soooo much cooler than Hexxat in every way. That said, I don't know which is better. So I'm letting you guys decide.
Edit: For the record, the third option is one third joke, one third serious, and one third "I just want to see what other's say."
- Hexxat or Sarevok: The Best Evil Thief41 votes
- Hexxat41.46%
- Sarevok29.27%
- My CHARNAME! BG2 has terrible thieves!29.27%
Post edited by Elrandir on
4
Comments
I would have to change my vote to Hexxat being the better THIEF while Sarevok is the better CHARACTER/NPC.
Sarevok :
More Health
More Damage
Higher Thac0
Higher APR
Access to better items. (UAI on Hexxat does help here, but she can't use Carsomyr or FoA efficiently)
Hexxat :
Better thieving skills.
And if we look at special abilities i'll pick deathbringer assault over anything Hexxat will give me.
Oh, there is no mathematics here, oh no!
Both you and @SionIV have made very good observations on Sarevok vs Hexxat. I will just add on a little.
Sarevok is great, but the main issue with dual-classing him is that you have a long down time and before he gets back his Fighter abilities, he will be considerably weaker than Hexxat. Even after he regains his Fighter abilities, he will have a slower progression as a thief. Slower progression in thievery skills is not so bad since you probably have more points than you will ever need, but slower progression in HLAs is not good. As for Hexxat's other bonuses/abilities, I consider them too minor to be worthy of serious consideration
To me, Sarevok is a better thief character if you are able and willing to farm XP. Otherwise, Hexxat is not all that terrible because early access to HLAs allows her to hold her own until Sarevok regains his Fighter levels and gets a few thief HLAs.
Spike traps on Hexxat.
Grand Mastery with Two handed swords and 8-10 APR on Sarevok.
Even without thief HLA he's a deadly foe once he regains his fighter levels. That's 1 760 000 experience points in ToB.
I agree that Hexxat is the better thief, and dual classing Sarevok requires a ton of experience. But not even her rogue HLA will keep her up with Sarevok once he regains his level fighter level.
Level 17 Fighter Sarevok -> Any level Hexxat.
So it's just a question of regaining his abilities.
It's like giving a wisdom tome to Xzar and dual class him to a cleric. It's in no way needed nor the best way to use him, but it's still a combination you can use if you want a cleric out of him.
By the time Sarevok got his fighter skills, and HLAs. Hexxat would be running circles around him with all of her nifty thief HLAs, and basically saying "Anything you can do I can do better!"
*Hexxat eyes Draconis*
Hexxat - Let me at him! I just need to put down a few spike traps!
*Five minutes later*
Sarevok - Are you soon done, blasted vampire?
Hexxat - Half way there! Just a few more traps!
*Ten minutes later*
Hexxat - I'm done!
Imoen - Uhm, the dragon is already dead?
Hexxat - WHAT!?
Anomen - Yes, CHARNAME's evil incarnate of brother already took care of him...
CHARNAME - Don't look at me!
Viconia - Improved haste, 8 APR and two death bringer assault, what a man...
20d6 damage x 7 = 140-840 damage. Even if you were behind xp wise by that point and say at 4 million (the same level that Sarevok would regain his fighter levels) that is still 4 spiked traps if you also take UIA. Thats still 20d6 x4 (80 - 480 damage). Draconis's dragon form has 190 health so he is unlikely to survive this.
The only thing Hexxat has going for her are traps, traps that are incredible broken to start with. And even then once Sarevok get ONE time trap, he's going to wreck pretty much anything in the game. He doesn't even need the time trap, but placing one time trap and having him on 8 APR will be the end. If he gets one deathbringer assault into the mix it'll be over even faster.
This isn't so much about Hexxat, it's more that a pure thief just isn't very powerful nor needed in late game (ToB). And we're putting her up against SAREVOK of all people, with amazing stats and a wickedly overpowered special ability.
She never stood a chance in winning this, with the exception if you're only looking at thieving skills.
Hexxats strong point is her Amazing STR and DEX. But she'll only gain 1 more AC than Sarevok and ranged Thac0 won't be usable for her in ToB.
Sarevoks 18/00 is only 2 damage behind Hexxats 20. Then put in that he can get Grand Mastery in a weapon and he'll have even more damage with his 18/00 than she does with her 20. Give him the fire giant belt and he'll literarly blow her out of the water.
The amount of thieving skills she gets extra from her dexterity are nice, especially early on in the game. But once you get to the level we're talking about, both Sarevok and Hexxat will have maxed out pretty much every thieving skill. They will have the same backstab as well.
Hexxat will have more thief HLA and while they are decently good, there is a limit to how many traps you can place, there are a few fights you won't even be able to place traps. Use any item is the holy grail for the thief, and Sarevok gets more out of that ability than Hexxat because he can use Carsomyr.
So the only thing she has is her pure thief class. Put a pure thief up against a fighter or even a F/T dual class and it sadly isn't a question of who will win anymore. Sarevok's deatbringer assault might be rare, but it's an ability that will literally end a fight if you're lucky.
To put it simple.
Who is the better THIEF? Hexxat.
Who is the more powerful character? Sarevok.
Is it a smart move to dual class Sarevok, or needed? No. I wouldn't even say it's worth it.
The only time I would dual class Sarevok would be if i was running with a smaller party (3-4) and had watcher's keep left to do.
Yes my vote might be a little bit odd, but i was actually going for the better character when i was voting. As while it's a little niche to dual class Sarevok to a thief and i wouldn't do it, he's still such a powerful character in himself that he'll pretty much excel no matter what class you dual him into.
Sarevok hardly gets any use out of use any item because of how long it takes him to even get HLAs. Hexxat can have them before you even get to ToB. Even if she can't handle weapons nearly as well as Sarevok she still will get more use out of that ability.
Sarevok won't get a time trap until he's at 5.25-5.5 million total xp (depending on if you level him up before you dual class him). If you've imported your party (and done all the quests in SoA and playing a 6 person party) that means your party will probably be around 800,000 xp ahead of him. Basically at that point (6-6.3 million xp on charname) the game is likely nearing its end. Its basically at the same point he'd be getting time stop if he were to dual class to a mage. Except the final boss and demogorgon, the two more powerful enemies you'd be facing at that point, are both immune to time stop. Plus traps can hit multiple targets so Sarevok is going to have to work really hard in those 6 seconds to out damage the 7 spiked traps you'd have with hexxat by that point (an average of 490 damage to any enemy in their aoe).
And we're talking about traps here. Some fights you won't be able to use them, other fights you'll only be able to kill 1-2 enemies. After her initial traps are gone, she'll be deadweight. Sarevok will always sit on his damage.
And i'll agree with you that until Sarevok gets back his fighter levels, Hexxat will deal more damage. But once he reaches those fighter levels (18 rogue) he'll be dealing more damage than her again.
You mean Hexxat doesn't get anything out of UIA because there is no item she can use (except arcane scrolls) that are worth using. Sarevok can use Carsomyr which is quite amazing on him.
Sarevok doesn't need time trap, but when he does get his first rogue HLA and if he picks timetrap, he'll truly shine. You hit every single attack under timetrap, that on Sarevok is fatal while not that useful on Hexxat unless you're using shapeshift scrolls.
I agree that it isn't a good idea to dual class him, but he is more powerful than Hexxat as a level 17 fighter AND as a level 17 fighter/xx rogue.
This boils down to level 17 fighter (Sarevok) with deathbringer assault vs 7 spike traps. The only thing saving Hexxat somewhat is relying on incredible broken traps, and even with them being that good, i'll pick Sarevok in melee over her traps.
@Elrandir - it boils down to one thing again, really. If you are farming XP, Sarevok as thief is superior to Hexxat. If you are not farming XP, Hexxat is better for a large part of the game until Sarevok recovers his fighter abilities.
For me, I farm XP... And I dual-class Sarevok into a mage. I RP this as "oh my bro is awesomely powerful and he's a fighter/mage. I'll copy him"
If that is the case, the choice should be straightforward. Since you did ask me for some numbers...
L39 Thief - 6.975m XP
L40 Thief - 8m XP instead of 7.195m XP (using 220k/lvl for high-level thieves)
L17 Fighter - 2.25m XP
L36 Thief - 5.72m XP
For the 8m XP cap (assuming you farm all the way like I do), you have a F17/T36 vs a T40. The T40 got shortchanged because the leap from T39 to T40 is a whopping 1.025m XP, and you are basically trading 4 thief HLAs (marginal utility will be small since you should already have gotten all that you need by the low T30s) for the whole lot of abilities from the F17 side.
This is also the main reason why I dislike single-class clerics, thieves and bards, because the leap from L39 to L40 requires way more XP than usual, yet offers very little in power. I would rather utilize this XP for another class, unless there are irreplaceable abilities to compensate (e.g. Edwin's bonus spells, Viconia's MR), then I will give a second look to see if these abilities are relevant for my party.
Full disclosure: I'm also not a fan of dual-classing, it feels very overpowered and I get impatient during the downtime. In this instance it seems a bit more fair power-wise because Sarevok starts out quite advanced into fighter levels.
I feel like it's alright for those classes, bard especially. Sure, the massive gap is strange, but somewhat justifiable. I mean, at level 30, you're far beyond the limits of normal men, and even a bard is godlike (or at least demi) at that level. A mortal can't improve forever, sad as it is to say, so eventually there comes a point when to improve becomes near impossible. Sure this could have been implemented better, but I think it's not too bad.
Actually, BG2 has already taken liberties with the rules. "High-level characters" in 2E often refer to characters of L20 and above. At L30, you are basically at the apex of mortal power and cannot advance. The NPCs that are above L30 are either undead (two of the senior liches in Twisted Rune are L31 and L33 and more powerful than Shangalar at L27, or Shoon Demilich at L36) or they hail from the ancient times of Netheril (Karsus, the Netherese archmage who stole Mystra's power, was L41). Many avatars do not even have classes that go as high as L30s.