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Reason to choose crossbow proficiency in BG1

I'm wondering what if any are the advantages of choosing proficiency in crossbows as opposed to long or short bows in BG1. It seems that with the latter that good ammo is constantly being dropped and that the only way to get crossbow bolts is to buy them. Are there any reasons, other than RPing, that one would choose this proficiency?

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Comments

  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,308
    There's the Army Scythe, which gives an extra attack/round, and the ammo is generally better... Bolts of lightning/ biting are really good.

    That said, I'm not a big fan of crossbows... It just isn't enough if a "hero" weapon for me.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited April 2014
    RP-wise, crossbows are infinitely easier to use, memetic cat pictures notwithstanding.
    The Army Scythe has been mentioned.
    But wow, is it ever expensive!
    With some of my characters, xbows just make a lot more sense. But then that is an RP decision, after all.
    As for the rest… they wield shortbows.

    elementbadbromance
  • CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
    edited April 2014
    Army Scythe or (+1 Crossbow of Speed) is hands down the best for crossbows IMO, Durlags tower provides more crossbow bolts than you can ever possibly need. (much like the kua toa bolts from BG2) However, bolts of Lightning are terrific and bolts of biting also great. Xbow bolts deal a base 1-8 dmg and the extra attack make it a worthy choice.

    Also wanted to add that you can get 2 Army Scythes in BG2 if you work it properly.

  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471

    Army Scythe or (+1 Crossbow of Speed) is hands down the best for crossbows IMO, Durlags tower provides more crossbow bolts than you can ever possibly need. (much like the kua toa bolts from BG2) However, bolts of Lightning are terrific and bolts of biting also great. Xbow bolts deal a base 1-8 dmg and the extra attack make it a worthy choice.

    Also wanted to add that you can get 2 Army Scythes in BG2 if you work it properly.

    Bah... Neurotypicals.

    Shortbows automatically have 2 APR, and they have other nifty bonuses such as the capability of hitting things up to +4 in immunities, which crossbows sorely lack.
    And if APR is important to you: think again, my dear unenlightenable - the Tuigan Shortbow has the same damage and thac0 bonuses as the Army's Scythe, and has 1 more APR than it does, making it far superior.

    The only reason to choose crossbow IMO is that you eventually run out of good things to give your party members, since you can't dupe items, so giving them the Firetooth after another archer already has the Gesen's might be worthwhile.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    edited May 2014
    Yea its too bad the drow bolts disintegrate. If not with an archer (ranger kit) character using crossbows they might have had some use (or at least a lot more use).

    In terms of advantages in BG1 I think others have pretty well covered it. You can get the Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy, which provides more accuracy than the best longbow, but that comes at the cost of APR.

    CrevsDaak
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Bows on a class that is normally 1 APR (like thieves) makes sense, as you double or triple your attacks depending on the bow. This would be their primary weapon.

    A crossbow is great on a fighter type like Dorn who can get more than 1 APR with 2 proficiency pips but only use them once in a while. This would only be used when you want to soften up an ememy before charging in for melee.

    Dorn (or an assassin) with poison active plus light crossbow of speed means he can make sure that pesky mage in the back is disabled before anyone could reach him with melee. It also works well with a Blade charname using Offensive Spin.

    The heavy crossbow of accuracy is okay in a pinch if you have some magical bolts you want to use but don't have any pips in crossbows. Or if you got lucky and found a bolt of polymorph and you really really want to make sure it hits. :-)

    Quartzjackjack
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    Tresset said:

    Crossbows aren't as bad as many people think. If you ask me, both long and short bows suffer greatly in BG2 due to the mysterious nerf of pretty much all their ammo, while crossbow ammo maintains its potency and even gets slightly better with the addition of the stunning Kuo-Toa bolts. The Kuo-Toa bolts are probably the best type of ammo in the series with their nearest competitor being the bullets +4. It is wonderfully awesome to have bolts that do 2d6 base damage and stun enemies. I would argue that with awesome ammo like this it matters very little how few APRs you get. I must admit that the low APR of crossbows makes me tend to shy away from them unless a) I am going to use the Army Scythe or b) I am going to have a warrior type use one. Crossbows do not suck; at best they are about the same as, or even a little better than long/short bows and at worst they simply do less damage than long/short bows and only due to their less APR.

    On a slightly related note: What do people think about slings as a competitor to the long/short/cross bows? I sometimes wonder what it would be like to have a warrior take a sling over a different launcher. The way I see it, slings have potential do some pretty massive damage output. They suffer from a similar APR issue to crossbows but their ammo and launcher options are almost as good as their competitors in both games and lets not forget that they add strength to damage in both games now. In BG1 We get a sling +3 which is, if I am not mistaken, the highest enchantment launcher in BG1 since it does +3 to both attack and damage. On top of that bullets +2 are fairly easy to come by and putting the two together does great things. It only gets better in BG2 when you get awesome slings like Errine and Everrard. Errine especially, which makes unlimited +4 bullets. That is a sling that does +4 to hit and damage (later +5) and then it makes its own bullets that do another +4 to hit and damage. That is a +8 (or +9) to hit and damage right there and easily the best thac0 and damage bonus coming from the launcher and ammo alone!

    Sorry to hijack the conversation here. If anyone complains I will gladly start this one in a new thread.

    Slings are far superior to either XBows or Shortbows, due to the fact that they add Strength to their damage, can hit +4 and +5 enhancement levels pretty easily, add both Dex and Str to their THAC0 and can be wielded with shields.
    Plus with Whirlwind APR becomes largely irrelevant.

  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    edited May 2014
    Ignore me, for I have done horrible things I should have not. I believe such comments were borne out of anger at being refuted by @Tresset‌ , given that I am incredibly stubborn and refuse to acknowledge other people of having the same intellectual capacity as myself, even though my mind isn't the best example of it, much like Quayle.
    So, if I may so humbly suggest, delight yourself with the picture of the disturbed seal I so frequently use when I piss out of the pot.
    image

    Post edited by Loub on
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,147
    edited May 2014
    @Loub Of course I am serious and incapable of such novice mistakes. The crossbow along with its own unlimited ammo count as a +4 (or+5) weapon in terms of what it can hit. It actually does remarkably well against Kangaxx the Demilich (as I found out by using it to kill him) who, as we all know, is immune to +3 weapons and less. They didn't hire me as a beta tester for nothing you know...

    Post edited by Tresset on
    elminsterLoubjackjackCrevsDaak
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    edited May 2014
    Tresset said:

    @Loub Of course I am serious and incapable of such novice mistakes. The crossbow along with its own unlimited ammo count as a +4 (or+5) weapon in terms of what it can hit. It actually does remarkably well against Kangaxx the Demilich (as I found out by using it to kill him) who, as we all know, is immune to +3 weapons and less. They didn't hire me as a beta tester for nothing you know...

    Eeeeeech... I really hate myself for being so prepotent.
    I am really really sorry. Honest.
    I want to hide in a dark, damp, fetid and tight hole right now. I want to seclude myself in a coccoon of pain and loneliness. I need skittles. And churros. And condoms.

    Jokes aside, may I humbly implore for your forgiveness? I am aware that I have made a mistake, and that I will not be so quick to lash out at someone due to my own inherent sadism. I have enough enemies in the forums as it is, and I do not want to count any more people among them. Please.

    lunarQuartz
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,466
    Yeah myself I'm an APR kind of guy, so I would put it the other way around. With the Army Scythe available, is there any reason not to pick Crossbow proficiency in BG1? I mean 2 APR, high damage output, and nice bolts. No short/long bow beats that. However, I find crossbows less appealing in BG2 because even with Firetooth you only get 1 APR, which to me doesn't measure up to Tuigan Bow's 3 APR. I don't know and I don't care if Firetooth does more damage, I just like the constant pelting with Tuigan's Bow.

    From a RP perspective I like crossbows on less dexterous warriors, because in reality it's easier to aim with them than with bows.

    Goturaljackjack
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited May 2014
    Words can make deep wounds that cannot be readily healed or forgotten. A medical or psychological condition should not be used as an excuse to demean and hurt others - it makes everyone with the condition look bad. The excuse grows stale after a while.

    Getting back on topic, it is fine to have a character using crossbows in BG1, especially vanilla. Quality bows are limited, you can buy the Army Scythe early, and you can utilize the magical bolts you find. More crossbow users and you will start seeing diminishing returns due to the lack of quality crossbows in the game.

    LoubBlackravenQuartzjackjack
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,308
    edited May 2014
    My only problem with slings is the lack of elemental/effect ammo... There are a handful of fire bullets around, but not much else. Bolts and arrows come with Mage-bustin extras.

    Edit: Also, they're super-camp.

    TressetelminsterjackjackWolk
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    In general, the greater the APR, the 1 extra APR difference between bow and xbow becomes smaller. Xbow will do well for fighters who have access to Improved Haste and GWW.

    TressetjackjackCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,413
    edited May 2014
    I don't like how all arrows and bows are nerfed in bg2, you can attack with a shortbow+3 and arrow+3 but you will still do 1-6 damage. Huh? Why? Sling +3 with bullets+4 and with +7 damage bonus from 19 strength will do 1d4+15 damage. This is 16-19 damage compared with the bow's 1-6. This makes bowshots look like little needles or beestings (without venom) when compared.

    That being said, I prefer crossbows in bg2 but most npcs come with shortbow proficiency (Imoen, Nalia, Yoshi, Mazzy) and giving them crossbow proficiency seems like a huge waste. If I ever make an archer for bg2 I would go for crossbow grandmastery. And farm shauguins and kuo toas for their wonderful bolts.

    jackjackSCARY_WIZARDJuliusBorisov
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Crossbows are best utilized by cross-legged, cross-eyed Commoners of DOOM!

    That is all.

    jackjack
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,302
    edited May 2014
    I've been meaning to try a grandmaster in crossbow who uses the Light Crossbow of Speed and bolts of biting. Bolts of biting do 30 points of poison damage over 15 seconds. That would be at 3 attacks per round unbuffed and 4 attacks per round when Hasted. (2 points poison damage per second, I guess? So 6 or 8 poison per second if that's correct.) That's a lot of poison damage. Most enemy mages will just shrivel up and die from an assault like that. Granted, the crossbow and bolts are both expensive. But before you know it you're swimming in cash in this game.

    Blackravenjackjack
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Ranged weapons generaly are pretty poorly implemented in BG. Actualy it suprises me, that this issue wasn't yet adressed by some mod.

    1) Throwing weapons are simply bugged. You get BOTH DEX and STR bonuses to your THAC0, which means you hit with your axe better when thrown than in meele. Yeh.

    2) STR damage added to slings and thrown weapons, resulting in ridiculous damage. Completely againts reality as well. Try to chop some wood with thrown axe. Slings, spears and other throwing weapons were used by second class soldiers, used for scouting and pre-battle harras. Strong trained men used combosite bows and heavy crossbows. Guess why.

    3) Bows getting exta APR. Yes bow is indeed the fastest ranged weapon, but it is by no means faster than meele weapons. Current situation, when archer can shoot two arrows in your face, while you swing him . It would get pretty funny if not for:

    4) AC penalty vs meele. Yes this is logical and correct, but it would be more cool if the game would actualy tell you. I've personally find about this reading gamebanshees forum, year after I've started with BG.

    FinaLfront
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    Arizael said:

    Ranged weapons generaly are pretty poorly implemented in BG. Actualy it suprises me, that this issue wasn't yet adressed by some mod.

    1) Throwing weapons are simply bugged. You get BOTH DEX and STR bonuses to your THAC0, which means you hit with your axe better when thrown than in meele. Yeh.

    2) STR damage added to slings and thrown weapons, resulting in ridiculous damage. Completely againts reality as well. Try to chop some wood with thrown axe. Slings, spears and other throwing weapons were used by second class soldiers, used for scouting and pre-battle harras. Strong trained men used combosite bows and heavy crossbows. Guess why.

    3) Bows getting exta APR. Yes bow is indeed the fastest ranged weapon, but it is by no means faster than meele weapons. Current situation, when archer can shoot two arrows in your face, while you swing him . It would get pretty funny if not for:

    4) AC penalty vs meele. Yes this is logical and correct, but it would be more cool if the game would actualy tell you. I've personally find about this reading gamebanshees forum, year after I've started with BG.

    1) I believe this bug was only introduced with one of the more recent patches. I would imagine it will be fixed in the next patch.

    2) The issue of which ranged weapons should receive strength bonuses (and why) has been discussed at length in the past. Game balance comes into play here too. Personally I'm fine with how it is now. Even with STR damage bonus being added to slings/throwing weapons, I believe they rarely (if ever) manage to out-damage (cross)bows.

    3) You could argue that the rate of attack with melee weapons factors in things like blocking, feinting, etc., rather than just how fast it's physically possible to swing the weapon, but yeah I agree that it doesn't really make sense. But there are lots of things that don't make sense in BG (and D&D). Sometimes you just have to go with what works for the game rather than what works in real life.

    4) Agree. I think the vanilla BG2 loading screens might have had a note about this, but yeah it's not exactly made obvious.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,147
    edited May 2014
    SethDavis said:

    ... I just like the way the paperdoll holds a crossbow... worth it.

    Wow. I never really noticed that but, it does look rather odd. Almost like they think it is a club or something...

    SCARY_WIZARDJuliusBorisov
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,147

    Tresset said:

    SethDavis said:

    ... I just like the way the paperdoll holds a crossbow... worth it.

    Wow. I never really noticed that but, it does look rather odd. Almost like they think it is a club or something...
    I want to see them leaning on it like they're playing golf.
    @SCARY_WIZARD I can't stop laughing when I think about that! I doubt I shall ever think of crossbows in the same way again!

    CrevsDaakFinaLfrontjackjack
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