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Let's Talk About Wisdom

dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Can’t believe we’re on to week 5 already. Wisdom is kind of the hardest stat to define – see the recent “What is Wisdom” thread for evidence of that! It has been defined as a NPC’s common sense, vision, level of enlightenment, judgement... and also speculated as being their strength of mind, self-belief, and commitment to their idea of reality. Finally its use in spot checks in 3rd Ed makes me think of intuition, while the way it increases with age makes me think of life experience.

So yeah, it’s complicated. In the Baldur’s Gate series, Wisdom doesn’t do much unless you’re a Cleric or Druid, then you get extra spells. Otherwise it can give you a lore bonus or penalty, and influences whether the arcane Limited Wish or Wish spells go right, which are spells used a lot in hardcore, high difficulty runs. Some classes, like Paladin, have high Wis requirements despite not actually using the stat. Oddly there are 3 Wisdom boosting tomes in Baldur’s Gate, unlike the other stats which have one book each.

WISDOM SCORES

4: Wilson

Equal to his Int score, I could see Wilson having a much higher Wis, representing how he clearly isn’t an average bear, and can intuit commands. Perhaps he would wearily roll his eyes when Charname gave him a particuarly dumb order. Still, his Wisdom doesn’t make any difference in game terms.

6: Minsc

Possibly the result of his head trauma, Minsc’s wisdom is best characterised by the whole “Boo” thing, but also manifested in him attacking the party if they take too long to find Dynaheir, thinking the awful play at the Five Flagons was incredibly good, and being admitted into Spellhold. In other words, Minsc could be seen as a (oddly loveable) madman, though in the adventuring profession this is not as much of a disadvantage as it would be in say, accounting.

7: Shar-Teel, Alora

In relation to Wisdom being in part to do with age, characters with less than average Wis act immature. Both Shar-Teel and Alora have respectable Intelligence (14) but don’t show it, Shar-Teel being on a mad quest for bloodshed, fueled by anger at her father, and Alora burgling places for no real reason, since she’s Chaotic Good. Note the Chaotic part of both their alignments, and their youth.

8: Skie

Again, immaturity. Not being very worldly, as the daughter of a Grand Duke. Falling for slimeball Eldoth’s scheme could also show a lack of self-confidence, since he treats her like a dog, but in my opinion it's probably just her inexperience.

9: Edwin (BG1), Safana, Coran, Nalia, Korgan

Just south of average, these characters are a curious blend. Four more chaotic alignments. Safana and Coran are stereotypical adventurers, in it for adventure, riches and nookie, not especially wise. Much of the same can be said of Korgan – I believe he was ditched by his old friends because he was too much of a loose cannon, and like Minsc, often displays suicidal bravery in battle. Nalia has been somewhat cloistered by her upbringing, and Edwin has a touch of meglomania which could be expressed by the 9 score.

10: Osprey, Khalid, Eldoth, Quayle, Yoshimo, Edwin (BG2), Sarevok, Neera, Clara

Too many characters to look at individually, so let’s look at the one that stands out, Sarevok. The ‘Vok has above average stats in everything but Wisdom. He’s clearly not lacking in self-belief or vision, but the bloodthirstyness of his plans perhaps betrays a lack of long term strategy. His Int and Charisma is what made him a success when he was alive, not his Wisdom, which ultimately was his downfall. It’s not low by any means but we still get the sense that he hasn’t learnt from his mistakes. Definately an NPC you can discuss a lot.

11: Arkanis, Imoen, Kagain

Beneath the bubbly exterior Imoen has slightly above average Wis, which makes sense to me.

12: Anomen, Baeloth, Hexxat

Anomen really doesn’t seem that wise, but he has been accepted into the Order, so he’s flying right at least. I’m not sure if Hexxat’s should be higher because I don’t know how old she really is.

13: Deder, Montaron, Ajantis, Tiax, Haer'Dalis, Mazzy

You get a bonus 1st level spell here, big whoop. Anyway, it’s strange to see the insane Tiax here. If I had to guess, I’d say his belief in his destiny bumps up a low Wisdom, but really who knows? Another character it would be interesting to debate.

14: Jaheira, Garrick, Kivan, Xan, Jan, Valygar, Rasaad

The one who stands out here is Garrick – I remember someone on the forums saying this is so he gets a lore bonus, but actually 14 confers none – he would have to have at least 10 to not get a penalty. How can Garrick be as wise as Jaheira? He doesn’t seem to have any great vision or great self-belief. He’s young and Chaotic, which as we have seen are hallmarks of a low Wisdom score. It’s a mystery.

15: Mordaine, Viconia (BG1), Dynaheir, Dorn

Yet another standout – Dorn. I don’t know much about the character so I can’t really speculate, but I guess he’s very driven? But he’s also Chaotic. Seems a tad high for BG1 Dorn and incredibly high for BG2 Dorn. Maybe his “patron” grants him extra Wisdom.

16: Xzar, Branwen, Faldorn, Yeslick, Aerie, Sir Anomen, Keldorn

Xzar has excellent Wisdom despite his apparent insanity, which leads me to believe it’s something of a ruse to make people underestimate him. Also, insanity needn’t mean low Wisdom, if your main perceptions aren’t impaired. Xzar blathers gibberish but he never actually attacks people randomly. Otherwise, most of these are priest classes. Obviously they need high Wisdom mechanically so they can be good NPCs, with their extra spell slots. To justify this in RP terms, maybe worshipping the gods as a Cleric makes them impart Wisdom to their priesthood? Having a rock-hard faith in a god, especially a powerful and stalwart one like Tempus, Clangeddin, or Helm, could conceivably do this in my opinion. Otherwise you will run into contradictions – does Sir Anomen, even after knighthood, have the life-experience of a Keldorn? Obviously not, but he does have the blessing of his priesthood. Wouldn’t it be great if their was a banter where Sir Anomen advised Keldorn on his wife’s infidelity, after Keldorn had mentored Anomen?

18: Canderous, Viconia (BG2), Cernd

The highest natural Wisdom is shared by three NPCs, only two of which you can normally play. Whatever their flaws Viconia and Cernd do have complete faith in the objects of their worship, to the point where it certainly caused conflict in Cernd’s life (god, I love that Cernd side-quest, where everyone from his past teams up to basically kick him in the nuts).


So yeah, as difficult to analyse as you would imagine. The NPCs whose scores seem strangest to me are Sarevok (relative to his other stats), Tiax, Garrick, and Dorn. All except Garrick have been somewhat explained in my mind but I’d like to hear anyones opinion on any NPC, and indeed on the definition of Wisdom itself. And what gives Priest classes their high Wis scores.

And what Wisdom do you give Charname? He’s young and sheltered so I think around Imoen’s score, perhaps a touch lower, makes the most sense. Then you can use the tomes to simulate his growth in experience.
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Comments

  • winterswinters Member Posts: 252
    edited May 2014
    Well, he literally dumped her (and for who, heh), which says a lot about his unimpressive Wisdom too :P
  • JimstromJimstrom Member Posts: 99
    Garrick shows some kind of wisdom in certain situations, if you side with SIlke, he will shout out to her doing the wrong thing, and if you have both Skie and Eldoth and Garrick, he will try to convince Skie to leave Eldoth because he is only using her.
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    @Machurto: That always made sense to me. He's skilled, charismatic, a good planner, but his arrogance hampers him--he doesn't expect CHARNAME to be anymore than a fly to swat away, he doesn't expect other Bhaalspawn to try the same thing he has, and he never once thinks that his plan for godhood might not work.

    If they aren't a divine class, I usually give CHARNAME a Wisdom equal to or lower than Imoen. She's spent a bit of time travelling already, whereas CHARNAME has lived in Candlekeep his/her entire life, so s/he's more...not naïve, but not as experienced as Imoen. And like the OP said, the Wisdom tomes are to roleplay his/her growing experience with the real world, though how many I use depend on how I'm RP them.

    It seems to me that Wisdom is your made up of your intuition, your faith, your world experience, and your...I guess humility. Most of the people with low Wisdom who aren't Chaotic or brain-damaged are arrogant, which like I said, prevents them from having alternate plans or admitting they're wrong.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/20891/why-do-priests-need-wisdom

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/31430/what-is-wisdom

    Just plugging these other wisdom discussions for reference.

    Serevoks wisdom makes sense, he's only as old as charname.
  • winterswinters Member Posts: 252
    edited May 2014
    (Aaaah I forgot to add the obvious thing, Dorn is not Chaotic, like Viconia, he's Neutral Evil, which makes a bit more sense combined with pretty high WIS)
  • dustbubsydustbubsy Member Posts: 249
    Thanks for the insight into the Half-Orc Blackguard, @winters! I admit I know very little about him, he got chunked by my party in BG2. Then weirdly respawned later.
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    For me Wisdom is knowledge of Self and others and the ability to manifest one's own destiny without being swept away into confusion . Its real challenge is to distinguish that which comes from within and forms a persistent Identity from the endless chaotic winds of the wide world.

    Reminds me of Bilbo's advice to Frodo about The Road and what can happen once you step outside your door.


    Intelligence is that facility which figures out how to attain a desired result whether it has come from the promptings of Wisdom or has insinuated itself into consciousness from some other destiny stream.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    jackjack said:

    From another thread, this one struck a chord with me:

    Anduin said:

    In the end it was decided that intelligence is how well you can absorb and apply information.

    Wisdom is how well you can interpret information and how well you can use it to guide yourself or others.

    Yes, but isn't to "apply information" (INT) likely to amount to the same thing as to "use it" (to guide yourself or others, WIS)?

    I do agree that absorbing info is very much part of INT.
    As to interpretation of information, I think this involves both INT and WIS. Interpreting as in analyzing info and drawing a conclusion is INT (even though WIS may be involved: knowledge and insight). Interpreting someone's behavior and intentions, as we often do more or less intuitively, is an example where we may rely more on WIS than INT (though probably a combination of the two).

    I think of (D&D) INT more as a left-brain affair. The left brain houses people's analytical, logical, and verbal skills among other things. WIS on the other hand seems to be more of a right-brain affair: it offers us inter alia common sense, perception, and intuition (which I think is "intuition" precisely for the right brain's lack of verbal ability).
    An example: when it comes to language, the left brain helps us formulate and interpret sentences (= INT). But the right brain also plays a role in language, namely in interpreting context and a person's tone (= WIS).

    Edit:
    [spoiler]
    I'm aware that the above paragraph is not in conformity with what I posted a few days ago in the 'Let's talk about INT' thread. There I wrote that "intelligence encompasses not just one's analytical/logical abilities [...], but also practical intelligence (the ability to adapt to one's environment), social intelligence and wit, expressive abilities, unconscious/intuitive modes of thought, creativity and probably even more."

    To that @TJ_Hooker replied:
    TJ_Hooker said:

    I would agree with Aristillius and Blackraven if we were talking about intelligence in a general sense. However, I believe this thread is about intelligence as per the D&D stat, and I'm not sure that they're the same thing.

    I've come to think that he's got a point. Hence the above distinction between (D&D) INT as left-brain capacity/skills and (D&D) WIS as right-brain capacity/skills.
    [/spoiler]
    Post edited by Blackraven on
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    Blackraven said:


    I think of (D&D) INT more as a left-brain affair. The left brain houses people's analytical, logical, and verbal skills among other things. WIS on the other hand seems to be more of a right-brain affair: it offers us inter alia common sense, perception, and intuition (which I think is "intuition" precisely for the right brain's lack of verbal ability).
    An example: when it comes to language, the left brain helps us formulate and interpret sentences (= INT). But the right brain also plays a role in language, namely in interpreting context and a person's tone (= WIS).

    That makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider in real life how some people with freaky high intelligence are hampered by bad social skills, a lack of sarcasm sense, etc, because of all the emphasis on the left side of their brain.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited May 2014
    I took it to mean that using information is doing so with regard to external situations, outside of the realm of pure logic, whereas applying information is more processing it internally.
    e.g.
    Applying information you have absorbed to create the criteria for a database program;
    Using the resulting program to manipulate real-world data in order to come up with a usable list of demographics.
    But I suppose he might be able to explain it better.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    edited May 2014
    bengoshi said:


    While @jackjack‌ and @Blackraven‌ remind here some conclusions the community has reached before,

    Ouch, there I was thinking I had come up with a nice new point of view, deeserving of many Insightfuls, and now it turns out it was just old news hehehe :p
    bengoshi said:


    let me quote hilarious pieces from this thread:

    Wisdom is your ability to decide when it would be smarter NOT to throw tomatoes while Intelligence is your ability to distinguish which tomatoes are best for throwing.

    Wisdom is knowing better than to throw/shoot a tomato at a pit fiend while Intelligence is making a tomato gun so you don't have to throw them.

    Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad while Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit.

    To me, these words are really words of wisdom... ahhm..intelligence...ahhm... let us agree that these words are words of ... tomatoes

    While presented in a joking manner, these "wiselligent" words of tomatoes do illustrate nicely the difference between INT and WIS. I like them quite a lot actually. Thanks for sharing!
  • ApocryphaApocrypha Member Posts: 105
    edited May 2014
    Well, CHARNAME doesn't really count, since if you're a divine/arcane spellcaster you'll probably use tomes/the Deck/Lum's machine/etc to boost your casting stat beyond the realm of mortal men...

    *notices that you said Charisma, not CHARNAME* Woops. Well, Charisma is, to me, a combination of: a) your looks, b) your wit, and c) your people skills. In effect, it's an assimilation of your ability to draw, hold, and handle attention, which is why Sarevok came so damn close to succeeding--he knows how to manipulate a crowd. It's probably a right-hand-side of the brain thing, considering how Bards are the "standard" Charisma-based class, and a decent Bard will be creative.

    So while the other two mental stats are all about processing and using information to formulate a plan, Charisma is about getting people to listen to you once you've decided what to do. It's basically your leadership skills--nobody is going to listen to the insanely wise genius who refers to them as "unintelligent reprobates", takes everything seriously, and is as pretty as the Phantom of the Opera beaten with an ugly stick; but everyone will pay attention to the handsome young man smiling lazily as he lays out an easy-to-understand plan of attack, with a few puns or jokes thrown in for good measure.
  • winterswinters Member Posts: 252
    Apocrypha said:

    Nobody is going to listen to the insanely wise genius who refers to them as "unintelligent reprobates", takes everything seriously, and is as pretty as the Phantom of the Opera beaten with an ugly stick.

    I strongly suspect that another insanely wise genius might :]

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Apart from the Tomatoxplanation above, Wisdom also includes the resilience of the psyche. Hence why the Will stat is derived from it in 3rd Ed. A wise mind is less likely to fall prey to mental attacks and tricks.

    It is not, however, related to the "offensive" power of your psyche. In my mind, at least. But I'll share more of my thoughts on that whenever a thread about Charisma is made.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    winters said:

    Apocrypha said:

    Nobody is going to listen to the insanely wise genius who refers to them as "unintelligent reprobates", takes everything seriously, and is as pretty as the Phantom of the Opera beaten with an ugly stick.

    I strongly suspect that another insanely wise genius might :]

    I think that someone 'That' wise would know that people wouldn't listen to that type of approach. They would thus use their pearls of wisdom to modify their approach such that they could more effectively disseminate their wisdom.

    To me, "Intelligence" is how things work. "Wisdom" is why things work. And when I say 'Why' I don't mean mechanically. I mean the interconnectedness of things. it is intelligent to know how to build and design a computer. it is wise to realize that there are certain elements that a computer can't handle on their own.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    the_spyder said:

    I think that someone 'That' wise would know that people wouldn't listen to that type of approach.

    My thoughts exactly. Such behavior would strike me as indicative of low Wisdom.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Charisma is often stated in dnd books as being unrelated to looks for a reason... charisma is force of personality. This need not always make you pleasant or likeable though. High charisma characters are more likely to have an unusual appearance. Beauty isnt associated with any core dnd stats in almost every edition.

    Wis is best viewed as perceptiveness, intuition and will power. High int can eventually start covering for lower wis via prediction, but you wont get immunity to illusions because youve read a book ssying that dogs arent pink fire-breathers, but wisdom in older editions did make you immune to illusions of a certain level. Wise characters will seem older than their years, and avoid pitfalls.

    imo, int is whst builds a tool, wisdom is what tells us that our tools in turn build us. ;)
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    DreadKhan said:

    Charisma is often stated in dnd books as being unrelated to looks for a reason... charisma is force of personality. This need not always make you pleasant or likeable though. High charisma characters are more likely to have an unusual appearance. Beauty isnt associated with any core dnd stats in almost every edition.

    There was a point where Comeliness was a 'Core' trait in 2E. It became the 7th STAT. Then for a while there was a Percentage attached to CHA (much like the STR adjustment) that was supposed to represent physical beauty. Both have since been abandoned for the most part.

    But just to be clear, CHA CAN represent physically impressive or Beautiful people. But yes, it is more ineffable than all of that. Someone like Jessica Simpson might be physically beautiful (to some) but people wouldn't follow her out of a wet paper bag. Reminds me of that gal from 'The man with two brains'.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    the_spyder said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Charisma is often stated in dnd books as being unrelated to looks for a reason... charisma is force of personality. This need not always make y.ou pleasant or likeable though. High charisma characters are more likely to have an unusual appearance. Beauty isnt associated with any core dnd stats in almost every edition.

    There was a point where Comeliness was a 'Core' trait in 2E. It became the 7th STAT. Then for a while there was a Percentage attached to CHA (much like the STR adjustment) that was supposed to represent physical beauty. Both have since been abandoned for the most part.

    But just to be clear, CHA CAN represent physically impressive or Beautiful people. But yes, it is more ineffable than all of that. Someone like Jessica Simpson might be physically beautiful (to some) but people wouldn't follow her out of a wet paper bag. Reminds me of that gal from 'The man with two brains'.
    I think our statements are in agreement, though i admit if someone like Jessica Simpson was wearing daisy dukes, I'd follow her. You know, up stairs.

    Physically impressive and astonishingly beautiful are both exampled imo of an unusual appearance. Great leaders tend to stick out in a crowd, physically, behaviorly, or both. Ie Tamerlane was lame legged, Mao was 6ft tall among 5'4 folks, hitler had that moustache...
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Sir Brad of Pitt had that jawline.

    I think mostly of JFK. He was EXTREMELY charismatic as well as being an attractive man.

    On the other hand, for the most part, women with a high Charisma tend to be BOTH attractive and have strong personalities. I am thinking people like Cindy Crawford or Anjolina Joli or Sigourney Weaver all have (or had) both beauty and forceful personality. There are certainly fewer examples of women who could lead armies who weren't beautiful as well.

    I for one hated the creation of Sorcerer 'Based on CHA'. I understand the logic and the reasoning, but it is one of the reasons why I don't like CHA being defined 'Exclusively' as force of personality, and then by extension that being a way to manipulate Magic. I'd have gone with WIS or some combination of WIS/INT/CHA (with as difficult as that would have been to manage), but to just have done CHA (clearly because everyone till that point made CHA a dump stat) was just poor in my personal (and biased and subjective view).
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I see JFK as a decent example of good charisma, but i dont think he was particularly handsome; i suppose i am not gay, and perhaps not even a woman (... am a guy), but he was not at all classically beautiful. He was attractive despite his a bit above average looks. He wasnt ugly, but without chsrisma hed have been an average joe.

    Erm, i cant think of a single female leader (by which i mean primarily a leader... as in, we have heard of them due to leading first and foremost) that was what would be called beautiful. Joan of Arc was downright plain, Cleopatra was 'attractive to an intelligent man', not physically to any degree. Perhaps due to Patriarchal traditions people as a whole do not like following beautiful people. Even in business, women that are beautiful are not treated with respect as a rule. Not many leaders are exceptionally beautiful, the only US President that stands out would be Reagan, the former actor. Maybe Obama, but hes no Denzel!

    I dont mind cha being used for sorcerer casting, representing brute force reality manipulation... if it wasnt for the fact that in 3rd st least it ended up stupidly overpowered with Blackguard.
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