The Terrifying Beast That Could Have Been
Elrandir
Member Posts: 1,664
Generally speaking, people don't associate bards with fear or terror, but I'd like to sit you all down for a few moments, and talk about a truly monstrous multi-class that could have been. As most of us know, bards are not a bad class. They can gain decent AC with elven chainmail, can fight adequately, have high stat rolls, can cast a good number of spells, level a great deal faster than most classes, make good party faces, and are generally what bards are expected to be; jacks of all trades. But imagine stringing them together with something else. Something that, on it's own, is a bit of a nerfed version of another class but when paired with other things can really shine; Rangers. I recently came to the conclusion that, were I ever to be in the world of D&D, I would most certainly be a ranger/bard multi-class. I won't bore you with why I am that, that's not the point of the thread, but I will say that this is most certainly what I would be. Now, as a fan of the games, I decided to take a look at what this classes' skills and abilities would be. What I came to realize as I researched, was that this was quite possibly one of the best class combos around. Could it topple the ungodly fighter/mage? Maybe not. Let's not get too drastic here. But would it be a powerful class? Certainly. Especially in SoA. So let's look at why this would be such an exceptional class.
The Ranger/Bard would have all the abilities of both classes. This means that...
The R/B would be able to fight almost as well as a standard ranger, with a slightly slower THAC0 progression in the short term, yet no negatives in the long term.
The R/B would be able to cast arcane spells up to lvl 6, as a bard does.
The R/B would be able to cast 3 lvl 1-3 druidic spells, as a ranger does.
The R/B would have a satisfactory AC, due to wearing elven chainmail.
The R/B would be able to both pick pockets and use stealth, making the two classes' minor thief skills more broad and useful, though unfortunately not negating the need for a thief.
The R/B would have the exceptional lore of a bard, meaning less identifies for the mage, while also retaining a strong warrior.
The R/B would cap out at level 21/28. A suitable level for both classes, allowing a 0 THAC0 and most of the bard's spells.
The R/B would cap out at 13 proficiency points. (including the two in dual wield) This means five specialized weapons/styles and one extra point for that weapon you only need proficiency in.
The R/B would have the high minimums of both classes, resulting in monstrous rolls, likely making 100's easy to roll.
The R/B would be the second best jack of all trades, behind the F/M/T but ahead of the bard, making it a useful sixth party member type class, and generally beefing up the bard. One could argue that it would actually surpass the F/M/T, due to the druidic spells making him almost a F/M/T/C, but I will leave that to you all.
While I'm sure I could come up with other reasons as to why this class is powerful, I'm too brain addled and tired to do it currently. I'm sure those more mathematically minded or those who have a far greater knowledge of the meta game will say this is actually an average class, but I will be content in my opinion that it's awesome. Partly because I am one. So there. All in all, this is a powerful class in my opinion, and I wish it actually existed within the game.
The Ranger/Bard would have all the abilities of both classes. This means that...
The R/B would be able to fight almost as well as a standard ranger, with a slightly slower THAC0 progression in the short term, yet no negatives in the long term.
The R/B would be able to cast arcane spells up to lvl 6, as a bard does.
The R/B would be able to cast 3 lvl 1-3 druidic spells, as a ranger does.
The R/B would have a satisfactory AC, due to wearing elven chainmail.
The R/B would be able to both pick pockets and use stealth, making the two classes' minor thief skills more broad and useful, though unfortunately not negating the need for a thief.
The R/B would have the exceptional lore of a bard, meaning less identifies for the mage, while also retaining a strong warrior.
The R/B would cap out at level 21/28. A suitable level for both classes, allowing a 0 THAC0 and most of the bard's spells.
The R/B would cap out at 13 proficiency points. (including the two in dual wield) This means five specialized weapons/styles and one extra point for that weapon you only need proficiency in.
The R/B would have the high minimums of both classes, resulting in monstrous rolls, likely making 100's easy to roll.
The R/B would be the second best jack of all trades, behind the F/M/T but ahead of the bard, making it a useful sixth party member type class, and generally beefing up the bard. One could argue that it would actually surpass the F/M/T, due to the druidic spells making him almost a F/M/T/C, but I will leave that to you all.
While I'm sure I could come up with other reasons as to why this class is powerful, I'm too brain addled and tired to do it currently. I'm sure those more mathematically minded or those who have a far greater knowledge of the meta game will say this is actually an average class, but I will be content in my opinion that it's awesome. Partly because I am one. So there. All in all, this is a powerful class in my opinion, and I wish it actually existed within the game.
Post edited by Elrandir on
9
Comments
- lore, while fun, is actually completely useless from a mechanical stand point. What it does is to save you a few thousand golds over the course of the trilogy. When you finish the game with 200 or 300k, it does not matter
- pickpocket can be done by all thieves without any investment just by using potions.
As a consequence, adding a fighter-type multi removes the only point of the blade which is to be a single class with multi-like ability.
Just for fun, comparing with a FMT :
Your RB would be :
- roughly identical at fighting
- worse at spellcasting (let's face it drudic spells of level 1-3 are 95% useless)
- a lot worse at thieving (since your miss find traps, set snares and backstab which are the thief specific abilities)
Is it poweful? Yes
Is it OP? Probably
Does it compare to the big players of munchkin? certainly not
And hey, clerical magic is the thing every bard user (or at least me...) wishes they had. A TRUE jack of all trades. Capable of some thieving, some casting (both arcane and divine), and some fighting. It's my dream. Besides, despite not being a druid fan myself, there are some legitimately good spells in there. I'm a fan of... what is it, 25% all damage resistance at max level? (I can't remember that spell's exact effects to save my life. Probably not quite that good, but you get my point.)
Though I think Blades are awesome. Overused and overappreciated, sure. Like the Inquisitor, Berserker, Archer, Kensai/Mage etc.
The big problem with the multiclass above is that you will need good scores in every single stat.
-STR to hit and melee
-DEX for AC and ranged
-CON for health (duh)
-INT for Bard spells
-WIS for Ranger spells
-CHA because it's a Bard minimum requirement I think
And it will still not be better than the Kensai/Mage. Full warrior that does ton of damage and full mage?
It can destroy the Ranger/Bard every, single, time.
Since it would multiclass, you level up slower. And you only get up to 3rd Ranger spells and 6-7th Bard spells.
While the Kensai/Mage is Time Stopping and chops, with Grandmastery in Katanas, the Ranger/Bard.
Though it's not as powerful as it's more versatile than the Kensai/Mage
Like you @Elrandir I'm no big fan of Blades simply because I don't really dig the concept. Can't see them as proper Bards. Love Jesters and Skalds though.
Re: your concept, I think the combination does require some kind of justification to make it credible RP-wise. Most Rangers are low profile people, well at home in the wilderness, alone; most Bards otoh are social beings. Still I would consider it a conceivable multiclass, especially for Elves and Halflings.
I really like the 2nd Edition's multiclassing system, but wouldn't mind it at all if it allowed for more combinations such as your Ranger/Bard, or Druid/Mage, or Paladin/Mage (though I'm not a Paladin-man hehe). You meant Armor of Faith, very nice spell yes. Btw there is such a thing as a Chorister bard, who can cast a number of divine spells including AoF, though I don't think it's a 2nd Ed. kit.
And I see rangers as being loners or hermits, but I also see them as simple survivalist's and trained travelers. For instance, I see myself as a ranger because of my many years spent in the Boy Scouts. I learned many survival skills, outdoors skills, and general skills that don't necessarily make me a loner, they just mean I can survive in the wilderness if I got dropped out there with a pocketknife and a tarp. (or even less than that, were it necessary)
i may have misundertsood the point.
For me the post was about the ranger/bard being a "terrifying beast", which i though related to powergaming. And i stick to my point : powergaming-wise, the only point of the bards (if there is any...) is to be a blade.
In my point of view, the ranger /bard is definitely not a powergaming class, not even a jack of all trade one :
- fighting : Ok
- arcane casting : half OK. Bards are passable arcane casters. A Bard multi would get both slow spellcasting level and low maximum spell level (6)
- divine casting : Nok. casting a few armor of faith/ day does not make you a divine spellcaster (any other level 1-3 druidic spell is borderline useless). Or any bhaalspawn using minor heal and draw upon holy could be called a divine caster.
- thieving : Nok. Being able to turn invisible (with difficulty) and to pickpocket (with reload or potions) does not make you a thief. Find traps/set snares and backstab are what truly define a thief (powergaming wise at least).
I could argue that a pure stalker is almost as much a jack of all trades (better is thieving, worse in arcane casting)
- fighting : Ok
- arcane casting : can can a few spells, some of them being not completely useless
- divine casting : same as the R/B
- thieving : better that the RB : you trade pickpocket with better HIS/MS and backstab.
From a RP point of view, although i am very far from being a specialist, i also struggle to see the concept.
Anyway this is just my view (for the pleasure of the argument): If you like the concept (and i think you do), nothing should prevent you from enjoying it
The ultimate adventurer on his search for treasures both forgotten and locked away in a tightly guarded manor.
0/10 Power gaming min/max whoring score for me!
I love your idea @Elrandir and could even imagine playing such a character in a table top game
It loses out on low level Druid spells which really don't compare to high level Divine.
Hiding and Pick Pocket, which can still be covered by a Thief which you'll need anyway because Traps.
The FMC can even Detect Traps (just not disarm them) and turn Invisible with Sanctuary and Mage Invisibility spells. It even has a one up on a regular Thief, since the FMC can both be Invisible AND Detect Traps at the same time, so real Thieves don't need to be exposed while searching for traps (although I guess FMT and MTs can just use Mislead)
I suppose a FMC would be slightly more effective, but it lacks the flavour. (Dangit autocorrect! If I want to spell flavour like I'm not an American then let me!) I still love high lore and pick pockets. People think very little of the skills, but I love them. From a realistic and logical point of view, they'd be incredibly handy skills to have. In game terms?... Ehhh, perhaps not so much.
if I were to multiclass a bard I think id go cleric
So a multiclass Bard just provides +1 THAC0 and +1 Saving Throws (can't recall if there's a situation where a basic Bard song's Morale bonus wouldn't give the same overall effect as the first improved version) over the Blade before HLAs. Then the Blade catches up once HLAs are available.
A pure Bard? Sure that's +2 THAC0 and +2 Saving Throws for over a million XP. But since the end game was brought up, end game Blades has the same song as a regular Bard.
Half Pick Pockets score would really just mean 1 more Potion of Master Thievery to drink when going on a Pick Pocketing spree. So all you have is the Lore Penalty, which Identify spells that a Blade or Bard can cast make rather pointless.
Oh well. Everybody has an opinion, and lots of people love the "power" of a blade. I'll stick with a real bard myself.
EDIT: and bard 14 is only 880 kXP, so you would regain abilities quite fast.
I'd be scared of a Sorcerer/Paladin/Thief if you ask me
But yes, those Bards are best Bards.
Wall of Praise
And this is one case where I think Half-Elves get a definite advantage over the unlimited progression-gifted Humans.
See, in AD&D, Demi-Humans got a lot of extra languages for free, in addition to what Intelligence entitled them to...although Dwarves and Half-Orcs had caps on the Intelligence-based languages. Humans just got Common, maybe a regional dialect, Alignment, and whatever their Intelligence granted.
So, take a Half-Elf with a 13 Intelligence, and then a Human with a 13 Intelligence. First level in Bard class.
Half-Elf: Alignment, Common, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Orcish, Thieves' Cant, (BLANK), (BLANK), ( BLANK).
Human: Alignment, Common, regional?, Thieves' Cant, (BLANK), (BLANK), ( BLANK).
Add to this the bonuses to Pick Pockets and Hide in Shadows, which, along with expanded communication skills can be extremely useful in a Pen & Paper game...
But, I say, to each their own! ...humans tend to be taller, on average, which makes those punchin' and wrasslin' rules in Unearthed Arcana more plausible for them.
Edit : Well, if you could kit it Stalker, with Mislead from the bard spell selection you could chain backstabs with Improved Haste to glory. It wouldn't be bad actually
"I STORE ACID ARROW IN MY FIST, EMPOWER IT, AND THEN SPLIT THE DAMAGE BETWEEN ACID AND COLD ALSO I EXTEND IT K"
Anyway, I love the idea of Bard duals and multis. Generally, I don't think there could ever be one 'true' bard like many people here have imagined. To me, variety and ambiguity is pretty much what the class is about. Even if you're a jack of all trades, there is a good chance that one of your trades stand out among the rest. It makes perfect sense why some bards would eschew lore and more refined singing abilities for better fighting skills and vica versa. Personally, I love all the bard kits, including Blades (and not only from a powergaming standpoint) but to each his own.
While a Ranger/Bard sound cool, I'd go for a Paladin/Bard myself. A virtuous knight with a bardic stride, now that would be a riot to roleplay.