I've read that chopsticks actually make better throwing weapons then the 'ninja weapons' kunai. Kunai don't have the balance to be thrown really well, while a sharpened chopstick does. My source wasn't the most professional thing in the world, though, so I don't know if that's actually really true.
I like the Stalker kit quite a bit (mostly because I really like Valygar), but Archer kit for just running all over BG1 taking down everything while laughing hysterically wins for me. Sure, BG2 and ToB get a bit rougher, but they're pretty easy for me. It's the early BG1 when every wolf is a killer that's scary and hard for me (I don't like going to the basilisks or the sirines and powering up- it feels cheesy to me) that I need to be uber powerful, so Archer it is.
As I've said, to see if a Kit is better, conpare it without a party, with a party you can win the game as a Druid, without using spells with your PC and without any armor. That +2 to damage gets multiplied so it's a +8 after being multiplied, and if you are using a Katana+3, you'll have 4-13 without any other bonuses, with the gaultlets of +1/2 APR, you have 6-15, with STR bonus you get 6-15 plus 1 to 14 bonus from STR, and if we add damage from a Critical hit, that's 50% from 6-15, for example, if I get 15 damage with a Crit Hit, at the end it will be (15+7)x4+1 to 14 from STR. Also, if a Kit has to rely on a party to be effective, then it's not versatile on it's own, and the best Kit/class combination is the most versatile one, and even the Stalker isn't as good as a F/M/T or as good as an illegal M/C/T would be.
Rangers really got the short stick when it came to BG. In my opinion the paladin is pretty much better at everything, i wouldn't even pick a ranger over a normal pure class fighter.
I couldn't pick any of the kits as in my opinion they are all lackluster. They somehow end up being worse than the original (Beast Master), a very niché class (BG2, Archer) or a somewhat interesting character (Stalker) that is still outdone by a F/T multi class.
The only time a ranger shine in my opinion is when you run a R/C multi or dual class, and then it's because of the 'illegal' spell selection more so than the ranger.
Except party members are available. What you can win this game with is fairly insignificant when it comes to powergaming. Powergaming is about winning the game in the most efficient way. So if party members are the most efficient method (and they are as far as Rangers are concerned) then they're considered.
Also all those considerations also apply to the Archer's ranged attacks. You still have to provide a list of enemies that an Archer would be completely ineffectual against with a party.
Here you can go through the list yourself and find out what monsters are immune or have piercing/missile resistance. There are quite a few, and you also have to remember that most arrows/bolts only go to +3 magical enhancement which means anyone that requires a +4 or more to hit will be a huge road block.
You'll also only be picking up Arrows +3 in watcher's keep and ToB. So it'll be few and far between.
It hasn't been updated for 10 years, so it won't be 100% correct, but it'll give you an idea.
Launchers that generate ammo do so at their own enchantment level. Firetooth is an easy +4 XBow. TOB gives the +5 Sling, Shortbow, and XBow.
I love Firetooth but it doesn't work like that, as it generates +2 fire bolts, but there is a bug with the bolts it produce (none magical?) if i remember correctly.
Just because they are +4 or even +5 doesn't mean the ammo they generate are that high.
If you look at Firetooth you'll read this line at the top of its statistics : "Automatically shoots +2 fire arrows".
The sling from ToB is called Erienne sling +4/+5 and you can generate 5 +4 bullets every day with it.
The only weapon that generate high level ammunition that i can think of is Sling of Everard from the bonus pack.
Yeah except I've used the Firetooth to hit Liches with Improved Mantle.
Which is the reason i mentioned the bug, right now unless it's corrected it doesn't work as a magical weapon which means it'll bypass many protections. It also bypasses Protection from Magical Weapons if i remember correctly.
As I've said, to see if a Kit is better, conpare it without a party, with a party you can win the game as a Druid, without using spells with your PC and without any armor. That +2 to damage gets multiplied so it's a +8 after being multiplied, and if you are using a Katana+3, you'll have 4-13 without any other bonuses, with the gaultlets of +1/2 APR, you have 6-15, with STR bonus you get 6-15 plus 1 to 14 bonus from STR, and if we add damage from a Critical hit, that's 50% from 6-15, for example, if I get 15 damage with a Crit Hit, at the end it will be (15+7)x4+1 to 14 from STR. Also, if a Kit has to rely on a party to be effective, then it's not versatile on it's own, and the best Kit/class combination is the most versatile one, and even the Stalker isn't as good as a F/M/T or as good as an illegal M/C/T would be.
Why do you add only 50% with a Critical Hit ? They double the damage.
I just runned a half-orc F/T in Candlekeep to make some tests.
19 Str (+7) specialized (+2) two handed weapon style (+1) using a quatterstaff (1d6) = 11-16
Playing on the easiest difficulty gives you a +6 luck bonus to all your rolls, which means my attacks always did the maximum damage possible. Because the monks are unarmed, they take +4 damage in melee. Final damage expected is 20.
The results are :
Normal hit, 20 damage Critical hit, 40 damage (it's a x2, everythings is multiplied) Backstab, 33 damage (only the str bonus isn't multiplied) Critical backstab, 66 damage (the critical is applied after the backstab)
So in your example, a Stalker wielding a katana +3 (1d10+3) with the gauntlets (+2) will indeed inflit 6-15 damage per hit, let's say he hits for 15 (+str bonus). He will do 30 (+ str bonus x2) damage on a critical, 15x4 (+str bonus) on a normal backstab and (15x4 + (str bonus)) x2 on a critical backstab. Which means he can do up to (60 + 14)x2 = 148 damage on a critical backstab with 25 str.
But in reality I think he is going to be specialized in the weapon of his choice, which means he will have a base damage range of 8-17 (1+3+2+2 - 10+3+2+2). Assuming max damage roll, he will do :
And I can argue that it's a feature. The launcher's enchantment level carries over to the ammunition it generates. And that the description is worded incorrectly where +2 refers to the damage it deals and not the enchantment level.
And I can argue that it's a feature. The launcher's enchantment level carries over to the ammunition it generates. And that the description is worded incorrectly where +2 refers to the damage it deals and not the enchantment level.
"The launcher's enchantment level carries over to the ammunition it generates."
Please do enlighten me where you got this part from? I'm very curious as i've always wondered why some of the missile weapons didn't work like that. Though Firetooth does specifically tell you that it uses bolts +2. And it's not only for the damage which you'll find out if you look at the Thac0.
Ok, even accepting that there's a limited selection of +4/+5 ammo one can come by, I'm still not convinced by the Archer class in mid/late SoA and ToB. As I said, piercing damage is generally the least effective damage one can deal. Furthermore, unlike in BG1 many difficult battles in BG2 are fought not in open areas but in confined evironments (buildings, dungeons) where most warrior-enemies will close in on you to engage you in melee. You get serious penalties for using ranged weapons in close combat. I've never played an Archer, so I'm just conjecturing here, but to me seems inferior to the Stalker and possibly even the Beastmaster.
Because that's how the Sling of Everard and Gesen Bow work.
Their ammo matches their enchantment level. And suddenly the Firetooth doesn't work that way? That +2 isn't even all that out of place as the bolts deal +2 Fire Damage.
As for missile/piercing resistance. This is why I'm asking for groups of enemies that somehow an Archer can't just pick an enemy it can conveniently hit while his party members handle enemies with resistance. And with that in mind, other party members solve the problem of ranged THAC0 penalties. I mean seriously, this is basic BG AI stupidity.
Because that's how the Sling of Everard and Gesen Bow work.
Their ammo matches their enchantment level. And suddenly the Firetooth doesn't work that way? That +2 isn't even all that out of place as the bolts deal +2 Fire Damage.
As for missile/piercing resistance. This is why I'm asking for groups of enemies that somehow an Archer can't just pick an enemy it can conveniently hit while his party members handle enemies with resistance. And with that in mind, other party members solve the problem of ranged THAC0 penalties. I mean seriously, this is basic BG AI stupidity.
It comes down to weapon type. A two handed sword is more powerful than a spear. Lack of choices when it comes to missile ammunition and you deal less damage with a missile weapon than you'll deal with melee weapons.
A kensai with a throwing axe will outperform an archer. A pure class fighter with grand mastery in sling will also outperform an archer until you reach very high levels.
It isn't that an archer isn't viable, because of course with a party he is viable. It's just that there are so many other characters and classes that are better. Archery was so powerful in BG1 that they toned it down for BG2.
You'll do fine with any class if you have a party. I could run a human Kensai with 3 in all stats and it would still be viable because i got Edwin or Keldorn with Carsomyr to win the game for me.
Some of the enemies you'll have problem with when it comes to archery are the following.
Undead (Shadows, Skeletons, etc) Golems (Clay golem, Iron Golem, etc) Slimes (Mustard Jelly) Otyuagh (probably miss spelled) Rakasha
I'm sure there are many more i'm forgetting about.
Even playing as a solo archer you'll be viable, you just need a good backup weapon like a quarter staff. You won't be able to kill everything in the game with a ranged weapon, but equip your staff and you can get through it anyway.
Can you do it? Yes Will other classes do it better than you? Yes
Party members with Turn Undead and the Crom Faeyr handle Golems and Undead.
Only the Fission Slime and Mustard Jelly has both Missile and Piercing resistance, the rest has Missile only. Rakshasa have no specific Piercing/Missile resistances and are instead equally resistant to all weapon types. Otyugh's only have Missile not Piercing.
There are no Kensai NPCs, no Archer NPCs, wasting the proficiencies of existing NPCs just to turn them into better Slingers than a class that are competitively good at Slings? And will be better than them in the long run? On the other hand lots of NPCs can backstab and most of them double as Trap Disarmers and Pickpocketers.
I've read that chopsticks actually make better throwing weapons then the 'ninja weapons' kunai. Kunai don't have the balance to be thrown really well, while a sharpened chopstick does. My source wasn't the most professional thing in the world, though, so I don't know if that's actually really true.
Considering kunai are actually farming tools, that sounds entirely reasonable to me. I have no idea why kunai have become a "ninja" weapon in fiction. Very strange indeed.
Ok, even accepting that there's a limited selection of +4/+5 ammo one can come by, I'm still not convinced by the Archer class in mid/late SoA and ToB. As I said, piercing damage is generally the least effective damage one can deal. Furthermore, unlike in BG1 many difficult battles in BG2 are fought not in open areas but in confined evironments (buildings, dungeons) where most warrior-enemies will close in on you to engage you in melee. You get serious penalties for using ranged weapons in close combat. I've never played an Archer, so I'm just conjecturing here, but to me seems inferior to the Stalker and possibly even the Beastmaster.
I'm gonna be honest; I've played an Archer all the way through BGII and ToB. By late BGII, shooting arrows often wasn't worth it anymore. He was better off smacking things with a two-handed sword at 2 APR because of his strength bonus. And of course, once he got Whirlwind Attack, that was definitely the way to go. 10 APR melee weapon vs. 10 APR ranged weapon? Obviously the former is superior.
@Zyzzogeton is gonna tell me how wrong I am and how I was playing the game incorrectly or whatnot, but @CrevsDaak 's point about enemies being resistant to missile weapons is well taken. Don't get me wrong, my character ended up being pretty versatile, and plenty powerful; he was good at both ranged and melee. Really it just depended on what I was fighting. Having an Archer pelting arrows at Stoneskin was quite effective indeed. Really I ended up with a Ranger who excelled at ranged (beyond what was even necessary in terms of THAC0), and was a little less good at melee combat than other Rangers (but only by +1 THAC0, +2 Damage, and 1/2 APR).
Archer is not the most powerful. But they are still a great class, of course. In terms of powergaming, I think the most noteworthy thing about them is they are arguably the most powerful class early game, in BG1.
@Gotural well, it seems that the INDEC has proven untrustworthy again :P I never cared about how Critical Hits multiply damage... Now I understand why I gotta use helmets! ;P
Shadows are resistant to all the types of damage, but only Fiend and Devil ones IIRC. Skeletons are pretty resistant to missile damage, with a variation from 80 to 95%.
And again, the best class is the most versatile one, that does not mean don't use your healing spells to still being versatile, because a dead Red Mage Ranger isn't as good as the living one (yes, 8-Bit Theatre reference ).
Also, the NPCs existing or not are the same as the mods you have installed, or as an DNA, you can use Jan to backstabbing frontliner or as main ranged and support (Haste+PfME+etc), same way you can use a F/T as ranged (Coran).
I've read that chopsticks actually make better throwing weapons then the 'ninja weapons' kunai. Kunai don't have the balance to be thrown really well, while a sharpened chopstick does. My source wasn't the most professional thing in the world, though, so I don't know if that's actually really true.
Considering kunai are actually farming tools, that sounds entirely reasonable to me. I have no idea why kunai have become a "ninja" weapon in fiction. Very strange indeed.
It probably has something to do with the fact that ninjas were originally peasant farmers who took up arms with the tools they had available: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_ninjas_farmer's
I've read that chopsticks actually make better throwing weapons then the 'ninja weapons' kunai. Kunai don't have the balance to be thrown really well, while a sharpened chopstick does. My source wasn't the most professional thing in the world, though, so I don't know if that's actually really true.
Considering kunai are actually farming tools, that sounds entirely reasonable to me. I have no idea why kunai have become a "ninja" weapon in fiction. Very strange indeed.
It probably has something to do with the fact that ninjas were originally peasant farmers who took up arms with the tools they had available: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_ninjas_farmer's
From what I understand, ninja used kunai as climbing tools- houses weren't often made of stone, so they could climb up a wall or the like sticking kunai in the wood, then taking it out and stabbing it higher, and so on.
But somewhere in folklore this changed to 'ninja throw kunai at people!' and now every film with ninja in it, including those made in Japan, have ninja throwing kunai. For some reason.
@Zyzzogeton Are you talking solo or in a party? I ask because you flip around a lot in your posts such as when talking about bypassing immunities you mention party members and then in the same instance you mention your archer destroying everything presumably solo which in turn means you are ignoring your weaknesses to present the archer in a 100% positive light.
Comments
I like the Stalker kit quite a bit (mostly because I really like Valygar), but Archer kit for just running all over BG1 taking down everything while laughing hysterically wins for me. Sure, BG2 and ToB get a bit rougher, but they're pretty easy for me. It's the early BG1 when every wolf is a killer that's scary and hard for me (I don't like going to the basilisks or the sirines and powering up- it feels cheesy to me) that I need to be uber powerful, so Archer it is.
That +2 to damage gets multiplied so it's a +8 after being multiplied, and if you are using a Katana+3, you'll have 4-13 without any other bonuses, with the gaultlets of +1/2 APR, you have 6-15, with STR bonus you get 6-15 plus 1 to 14 bonus from STR, and if we add damage from a Critical hit, that's 50% from 6-15, for example, if I get 15 damage with a Crit Hit, at the end it will be (15+7)x4+1 to 14 from STR.
Also, if a Kit has to rely on a party to be effective, then it's not versatile on it's own, and the best Kit/class combination is the most versatile one, and even the Stalker isn't as good as a F/M/T or as good as an illegal M/C/T would be.
I couldn't pick any of the kits as in my opinion they are all lackluster. They somehow end up being worse than the original (Beast Master), a very niché class (BG2, Archer) or a somewhat interesting character (Stalker) that is still outdone by a F/T multi class.
The only time a ranger shine in my opinion is when you run a R/C multi or dual class, and then it's because of the 'illegal' spell selection more so than the ranger.
Also all those considerations also apply to the Archer's ranged attacks. You still have to provide a list of enemies that an Archer would be completely ineffectual against with a party.
Here you can go through the list yourself and find out what monsters are immune or have piercing/missile resistance. There are quite a few, and you also have to remember that most arrows/bolts only go to +3 magical enhancement which means anyone that requires a +4 or more to hit will be a huge road block.
You'll also only be picking up Arrows +3 in watcher's keep and ToB. So it'll be few and far between.
It hasn't been updated for 10 years, so it won't be 100% correct, but it'll give you an idea.
Just because they are +4 or even +5 doesn't mean the ammo they generate are that high.
If you look at Firetooth you'll read this line at the top of its statistics : "Automatically shoots +2 fire arrows".
The sling from ToB is called Erienne sling +4/+5 and you can generate 5 +4 bullets every day with it.
The only weapon that generate high level ammunition that i can think of is Sling of Everard from the bonus pack.
Firetooth +5's self-generated bolts do 1d8+5 damage (+2 fire damage) and hit as a +5 weapon.
Sling of Everard's bullets do 1d4+2 damage and hit as a +5 weapon.
Gesen Bow's lightning attack (arrows if you prefer) hit as a +4 weapon
So you would be able to get through Improved Mantle with these weapons (if you were using their generated ammo).
I just runned a half-orc F/T in Candlekeep to make some tests.
19 Str (+7) specialized (+2) two handed weapon style (+1) using a quatterstaff (1d6) = 11-16
Playing on the easiest difficulty gives you a +6 luck bonus to all your rolls, which means my attacks always did the maximum damage possible. Because the monks are unarmed, they take +4 damage in melee. Final damage expected is 20.
The results are :
Normal hit, 20 damage
Critical hit, 40 damage (it's a x2, everythings is multiplied)
Backstab, 33 damage (only the str bonus isn't multiplied)
Critical backstab, 66 damage (the critical is applied after the backstab)
So in your example, a Stalker wielding a katana +3 (1d10+3) with the gauntlets (+2) will indeed inflit 6-15 damage per hit, let's say he hits for 15 (+str bonus). He will do 30 (+ str bonus x2) damage on a critical, 15x4 (+str bonus) on a normal backstab and (15x4 + (str bonus)) x2 on a critical backstab. Which means he can do up to (60 + 14)x2 = 148 damage on a critical backstab with 25 str.
But in reality I think he is going to be specialized in the weapon of his choice, which means he will have a base damage range of 8-17 (1+3+2+2 - 10+3+2+2). Assuming max damage roll, he will do :
Normal hit, 17 damage + str bonus
Critical hit, 34 damage + str bonus x2
Normal backstab x4, 68 + str bonus
Critical backstab x4, 136 + str bonus x2
The conclusion of this is that backstabs are scary, and you definitely don't need backstab x7, or even x5 to one-shot most of your foes.
Please do enlighten me where you got this part from? I'm very curious as i've always wondered why some of the missile weapons didn't work like that. Though Firetooth does specifically tell you that it uses bolts +2. And it's not only for the damage which you'll find out if you look at the Thac0.
Their ammo matches their enchantment level. And suddenly the Firetooth doesn't work that way? That +2 isn't even all that out of place as the bolts deal +2 Fire Damage.
As for missile/piercing resistance. This is why I'm asking for groups of enemies that somehow an Archer can't just pick an enemy it can conveniently hit while his party members handle enemies with resistance. And with that in mind, other party members solve the problem of ranged THAC0 penalties. I mean seriously, this is basic BG AI stupidity.
A kensai with a throwing axe will outperform an archer. A pure class fighter with grand mastery in sling will also outperform an archer until you reach very high levels.
It isn't that an archer isn't viable, because of course with a party he is viable. It's just that there are so many other characters and classes that are better. Archery was so powerful in BG1 that they toned it down for BG2.
You'll do fine with any class if you have a party. I could run a human Kensai with 3 in all stats and it would still be viable because i got Edwin or Keldorn with Carsomyr to win the game for me.
Some of the enemies you'll have problem with when it comes to archery are the following.
Undead (Shadows, Skeletons, etc)
Golems (Clay golem, Iron Golem, etc)
Slimes (Mustard Jelly)
Otyuagh (probably miss spelled)
Rakasha
I'm sure there are many more i'm forgetting about.
Even playing as a solo archer you'll be viable, you just need a good backup weapon like a quarter staff. You won't be able to kill everything in the game with a ranged weapon, but equip your staff and you can get through it anyway.
Can you do it? Yes
Will other classes do it better than you? Yes
Only the Fission Slime and Mustard Jelly has both Missile and Piercing resistance, the rest has Missile only. Rakshasa have no specific Piercing/Missile resistances and are instead equally resistant to all weapon types. Otyugh's only have Missile not Piercing.
There are no Kensai NPCs, no Archer NPCs, wasting the proficiencies of existing NPCs just to turn them into better Slingers than a class that are competitively good at Slings? And will be better than them in the long run? On the other hand lots of NPCs can backstab and most of them double as Trap Disarmers and Pickpocketers.
@Zyzzogeton is gonna tell me how wrong I am and how I was playing the game incorrectly or whatnot, but @CrevsDaak 's point about enemies being resistant to missile weapons is well taken. Don't get me wrong, my character ended up being pretty versatile, and plenty powerful; he was good at both ranged and melee. Really it just depended on what I was fighting. Having an Archer pelting arrows at Stoneskin was quite effective indeed. Really I ended up with a Ranger who excelled at ranged (beyond what was even necessary in terms of THAC0), and was a little less good at melee combat than other Rangers (but only by +1 THAC0, +2 Damage, and 1/2 APR).
Archer is not the most powerful. But they are still a great class, of course. In terms of powergaming, I think the most noteworthy thing about them is they are arguably the most powerful class early game, in BG1.
Shadows are resistant to all the types of damage, but only Fiend and Devil ones IIRC.
Skeletons are pretty resistant to missile damage, with a variation from 80 to 95%.
And again, the best class is the most versatile one, that does not mean don't use your healing spells to still being versatile, because a dead Red Mage Ranger isn't as good as the living one (yes, 8-Bit Theatre reference
Also, the NPCs existing or not are the same as the mods you have installed, or as an DNA, you can use Jan to backstabbing frontliner or as main ranged and support (Haste+PfME+etc), same way you can use a F/T as ranged (Coran).
...
I like archers, but stalkers seem pretty cool too.
but also kinda creepy
I like to think of Daredevil as a stalker class. Also would apply to the Batman family and numerous others
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Were_ninjas_farmer's
You're not forced to play through the entire game solo if you don't install a mod.
I've taken an Archer through TOB and seldom found a battle where I couldn't shoot something that wasn't resolved instantly.
But somewhere in folklore this changed to 'ninja throw kunai at people!' and now every film with ninja in it, including those made in Japan, have ninja throwing kunai. For some reason.
I have no idea how we got on this subject.