The Most Powerful Paladin Class v.2

Elrandir

Continuing my poll series, this time the topic is of paladins! So, who's your favorite? As always, this is for personal preference, and not to say what is the strongest kit. (the title's just for mild alliteration) That said, feel free to debate to your heart's content in the comments! After the Stalker VS. Archer battle we had last week, I'm curious to see if any big divide will occur with the paladins as well. Once again, thanks to Tresset for helping me retrieve my poll options from the first (now deleted) version of this poll.

CrevsDaak

Evil? Paladin? Can use Poison Weapon? YES PLEASE!

SionIV

Cavalier is my favorite, but Inquisitor is without doubt the strongest one. It's kind of ironic that the Inquisitor is so powerful that i don't really enjoy to play it, which is the reason i picked the Cavalier.

I love playing the Cavalier in BG1/BGEE. Having that good resistance in a game where fireball/lightning bolt is the king is just awesome. Also he is immune to fear which is the most commonly used CC from enemy mages and he's immune to poison which makes one of the most annoying fights (spiders) completely harmless. Throw on him a ring of free action for immunity to hold and he can solo the game without problem.

FinneousPJ

Poison Weapon with warrior APR and THAC0 owns not only mages but everything.

SionIV

FinneousPJ said:

Poison Weapon with warrior APR and THAC0 owns not only mages but everything.

Except when the enemy uses all his protection spells including mislead so you have to kill his clone first and by the time you're done with that clone he's not only finished with his timestop, he still has all his other protection spells including PfMW or Mantle.

Don't want to pee on your parade, but poison is only so good.

FinneousPJ

@SionIV And the Cavalier is stronger in what way?

Gallowglass

Oops, I mis-clicked. I meant to vote for Cavalier.

The unkitted Paladin isn't bad, but when I want a plain Paladin I can recruit Ajantis (for BG1).

I reckon Inquisitor is the strongest kit (because loads of True Sight is very useful, and that double-level Dispel is terrific), but when I want an Inquisitor I can recruit Keldorn (for BG2).

Blackguard gives us a pretty good Evil option, but when I want a Blackguard I can recruit Dorn (for both BG1 and BG2).

For a Paladin protagonist, I'd rather go with a kit not already provided by the game, so either Cavalier or Undead Hunter, and I find Cavalier more interesting. (However, I've never actually tried an Undead Hunter, although I've already got one rolled up and awaiting a later run.)

SionIV

FinneousPJ said:

@SionIV And the Cavalier is stronger in what way?

The Cavalier is weaker without doubt, this was personal and not most powerful. But the Inquisitor is stronger than both of them.

I didn't mean to cause an argument and apologize if it came forward as that. It just makes me raise an eyebrow when people say the Blackguard is an amazing mage killer. While they are good mage killers, they aren't nearly as good at it as an Inquisitor is. And there are certain combinations of protection spells that the Blackguard can't touch, while the Inquisitor will win it easily.

FinneousPJ

@SionIV‌ Well, for me at least this game is a party effort. I've never felt like I needed the Inquisitor dispel. Since I have mages to strip protections, I've found the blackguard stronger overall. Inquisitors aren't that impressive except for their dispel and TS.

SionIV

FinneousPJ said:

@SionIV‌ Well, for me at least this game is a party effort. I've never felt like I needed the Inquisitor dispel. Since I have mages to strip protections, I've found the blackguard stronger overall. Inquisitors aren't that impressive except for their dispel and TS.

Removing 4 enemy mages of all their protection spells (Mirror image, Blur, Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, etc) and curing your team from confusion, fear and hold at the same time is just about the most impressive ability in the game. Mages will never be high enough level to do that unless they solo, Inquisitors on the other hand can clean house with one spell.

This will be my last post when it comes to Blackguard Vs Inquisitor, didn't want to turn this thread into a discussion about that. We all have our different opinions

[Edited]: Edited Cavalier to Inquisitor, Thank you for pointing out my writing error FinneousPJ.

FinneousPJ

SionIV said:

FinneousPJ said:

@SionIV‌ Well, for me at least this game is a party effort. I've never felt like I needed the Inquisitor dispel. Since I have mages to strip protections, I've found the blackguard stronger overall. Inquisitors aren't that impressive except for their dispel and TS.

Removing 4 enemy mages of all their protection spells (Mirror image, Blur, Improved Invisibility, Stoneskin, etc) and curing your team from confusion, fear and hold at the same time is just about the most impressive ability in the game. Mages will never be high enough level to do that unless they solo, Cavaliers on the other hand can clean house with one spell.

You probably mean Inquisitors. I've never had that situation, you must be doing something wrong to end up there. I guess it's a difference in playstyles, so I'll say the Inquisitor might be the strongest kit for you.

Gallowglass

Agreed, @SionIV - an Inquisitor is even stronger against mages than a Blackguard, although both are very effective.

SionIV

Out of curiosity, does the poison work on undead? Liches, Shadows, Vampires, Skeletons?

Gallowglass

A lot of undead seem to have poison immunity, but I'm sure I've some types poisoned ... although I can't remember exactly which ones are or aren't susceptible.

elminster

Inquisitor obviously is amazing against mages and certain other creatures but I still have to give this to the blackguard. Namely for their ability to cast Armor of Faith and Draw Upon Holy Might, as well as their innate abilities like Poison Weapon, Absorb Health (bypasses magic resistance and doesn't allow a save), and Aura of Despair.

SionIV

What hard fights are there in the game once you remove all enemies that use divine or arcane spells?

SharGuidesMyHand

SionIV said:

Out of curiosity, does the poison work on undead? Liches, Shadows, Vampires, Skeletons?

I know from experience that it works on liches - I've shot liches with poison arrows and the poison will stop them from casting spells for the next several rounds.

SionIV

SharGuidesMyHand said:

SionIV said:

Out of curiosity, does the poison work on undead? Liches, Shadows, Vampires, Skeletons?

I know from experience that it works on liches - I've shot liches with poison arrows and the poison will stop them from casting spells for the next several rounds.

That has to be a bug, no? If it works on liches.

Blackraven

Like @SionIV I also picked Cavalier not because I consider them the most powerful but because I like them the best. To me they're quintessential White Knights (together with plain Paladins). The Inquisitor is more a Fighter class to me than a true Paladin (no Lay on Hands, no Undead Turning, no priest spells). They lack the Paladin's grandeur imo. Undead Hunters were a bit unlucky with their name, which makes them sound grimy and less holy than they really are. I guess if the kit was called "Disciple of Light" or something similar, I might have considered them more knightly and less "Bladey" (Wesley Snipes style). Crazy no, that a simple label, a name, can have such an influence? What can I say, vanity?
The concept of the dark knight (Anti-Paladins, Blackguards etc) is really awesome as well. I would have probably played one in BGEE if Dorn hadn't been one...

edit: spelling correction dark night is nothing special, dark knight is

abacus

Thematically, I adore the Undead Hunter… it was the first class I completed the entire series with and I just love the idea of a van Helsing type warrior despatching the quick and the dead with equal alacrity.
Also, when you consider the events of the main story, the Undead Hunter is quite handy.

(Also I *really* hate level drain.)

Mechanically, I don't think there's much doubt that the Inquisitor is the most powerful, however.

SionIV

The undead hunter was the first character my brother completed Baldur's Gate 2 with. After his archer got destroyed by vampires he found out that the undead hunter was immune to level drain. He created an undead hunter with horrible stats but that didn't matter once he reached the vampires and finally won. Took him many loads but eventually he completed the entire game with that undead hunter. To quote him.

"If i can kill vampires, i can kill anything!". It wasn't that easy once he reached the dragons, but with enough reloads he eventually got through it all and won over Irenicus.

Gotural

SionIV said:

FinneousPJ said:

Poison Weapon with warrior APR and THAC0 owns not only mages but everything.

Except when the enemy uses all his protection spells including mislead so you have to kill his clone first and by the time you're done with that clone he's not only finished with his timestop, he still has all his other protection spells including PfMW or Mantle.

Don't want to pee on your parade, but poison is only so good.

What protections ? Poison Weapon bypasses Mirror Images and Stoneskin, if the caster tries to cast, he becomes visible to melee attacks, and you can simply switch to a mundane weapon for PfMW. Every caster is falling round 1 to my Blackguard, except Liches with PfMW being naturally immune to mundane weapons but they are so slow you can easely hide behind a wall for 4 rounds then come back.

Edit : The Inquisitor's dispel magic will also "cure" your team from Mirror Image / Stoneskin / Haste / every others buffs and remove all the CCs and debuffs you threw on your foes. Plus mages in SCS very frequently cast Spell Immunity : Abjuration, so I really don't value much the Inquisitor.

SionIV

Gotural said:

SionIV said:

FinneousPJ said:

Poison Weapon with warrior APR and THAC0 owns not only mages but everything.

Except when the enemy uses all his protection spells including mislead so you have to kill his clone first and by the time you're done with that clone he's not only finished with his timestop, he still has all his other protection spells including PfMW or Mantle.

Don't want to pee on your parade, but poison is only so good.

What protections ? Poison Weapon bypasses Mirror Images and Stoneskin, if the caster tries to cast, he becomes visible to melee attacks, and you can simply switch to a mundane weapon for PfMW. Every caster is falling round 1 to my Blackguard, except Liches with PfMW being naturally immune to mundane weapons but they are so slow you can easely hide behind a wall for 4 rounds.

You can't target him when he has mislead up until you've killed his clone. In the case of a lich that's 70+ damage you need to before you get him out of his invisibility. By that time he will have thrown his first timestop and you're in deep waters. Protection from Magic Weapons makes him immune to all your magical weapons, mantle makes him immune to normal weapons as well. If you can't touch him because he is immune to your attacks, you can't poison him either.

It's not as obvious in the vanilla game with the exception of liches and very high level mages with mislead, but once you play with SCS you'll notice it more often.

Would also like to mention that you can only attack one mage at a time, with an Inquisitor you can remove all protection spells from EVERYONE around you much faster than the Blackguard will even kill one. You can also remove enemy spells that affect your own party members.

Gotural

I have nearly finished my SCS run of BG2 with my Blackguard, I killed every liches of the game, and they never casted Mislead, yes, never (many Shadow Door / Improved Invisibility though). And you can simply True Sight (with maybe a Secret Word for the SI : D)

SionIV

Gotural said:

I have nearly finished my SCS run of BG2 with my Blackguard, I killed every liches of the game, and they never casted Mislead, yes, never (many Shadow Door / Improved Invisibility though). And you can simply True Sight (with maybe a Secret Word for the SI : D)

Then you didn't play with the Improved Mage Component installed. Even in the original game most of the liches use mislead.

[Edited] : This will be my last post in this thread, as it's hard not to get into a discussion about things that aren't part of the topic.

elminster

Not that it matters but I did check and liches do seem to be susceptible to poison from Poison Weapon.

CrevsDaak

Gotural said:

SionIV said:

FinneousPJ said:

Poison Weapon with warrior APR and THAC0 owns not only mages but everything.

Except when the enemy uses all his protection spells including mislead so you have to kill his clone first and by the time you're done with that clone he's not only finished with his timestop, he still has all his other protection spells including PfMW or Mantle.

Don't want to pee on your parade, but poison is only so good.

What protections ? Poison Weapon bypasses Mirror Images and Stoneskin, if the caster tries to cast, he becomes visible to melee attacks, and you can simply switch to a mundane weapon for PfMW. Every caster is falling round 1 to my Blackguard, except Liches with PfMW being naturally immune to mundane weapons but they are so slow you can easely hide behind a wall for 4 rounds then come back.

Edit : The Inquisitor's dispel magic will also "cure" your team from Mirror Image / Stoneskin / Haste / every others buffs and remove all the CCs and debuffs you threw on your foes. Plus mages in SCS very frequently cast Spell Immunity : Abjuration, so I really don't value much the Inquisitor.

Poison does not bypass Stoneskin but yes Mirror Image in the EE.
But, it does bypass a dragon's stoneskin, and only 2 Dragons are immune to poison... So... LET'S USE A BLACKGUARD TO KILL THEM (or an Assassin->Mage with Melf's and Improveed Haste).

Elrandir

My personal opinion is that they're all pretty cool for different reasons. Except unkitted paladins... Sorry, guys, but cavaliers are superior in every way...

Gotural

Of course I do. But the AI is selecting new spells every time the mod is installed (it is written is the readme IIRC) maybe you didn't have luck, or I have a lot of luck.

Even in the vanilla game I remember only 1 mage that used Mislead against me, it was the mage in the room before Firkraag's lair.

To go back on topic (you're totally right on that ) I totally prefer the Blackguard simply because he is evil. I don't know it sounds so badass to be a dark knight with a big two-handed weapon roaming the Sword Coast and destroying everything on his sight.

Dungeonnoob

Just feeling a bit nostalgic,and perhaps the other classes wouldn't exist without the regular paladin class.

Gotural

@CrevsDaak‌ Poison Weapon definitely bypasses Stoneskin in both BG:EE and BG2:EE, I'm not 100% sure about that, I am 300% sure about that.

I can even record a video of my Blackguard poisoning Edwin if you want, both in an unmodded and a modded (SCS) version of the game.