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The Most Powerful Paladin Class v.2

2

Comments

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,189
    Cavalier: For glory and honor!
    @CrevsDaak, @Gotural, it seems that poison weapon has been made more powerful in the EE games. In my BGT game it doesn't bypass Stoneskin. @CrevsDaak, maybe you were confused with your Conjurer/Assassin/Kansai in Tutu?

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    Inquisitor.

    Mainly because it's the only useful one.

    The Paladin is really a horrible class mechanically. Giving up grandmastery, Dual/Multi Class combinations, access to other races (particularly shorty saves) For what? A few bonuses to certain enemies that really don't compare to the bonuses granted by Grand Mastery? Extremely stunted spellcasting that really just amounts to DUHM, while a decent spell I'd rather have on a F/C? Turn Undead that a Cleric Multiclass does better for majority of the game?

    Protection From Evil? If I really wanted that, I'd get it from a C multiclass's Prot Evil 10' Radius. Detect Evil is lol. Lay On Hands is just another potion, which the games give way, way, way too many of. Extra Saving Throw? Shorty Saves are superior.

    The Carsomyr? Maybe, but that's so late game that a F/T dual will be able to wield it, have grandmastery, and have Thief HLA's.

    So none of those are worth it.

    Only the Inquitsitor actually has something worth giving up. Instant Dispel Magic, Instant True Sight. I'd need to load up a Mage with the Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power. And any Mage I have that has those two items is better off spamming their other spells other than reserving themselves for an enemy to do something I'd need instant cast Dispel Magic/True Sight. It's not much, but nothing the Paladin or its other kits offers makes it a mechanically better choice over a Fighter with Dual potential or a Fighter multi.

    Other than the Inquisitor, the Blackguard is another pick, but only for the first game. In SoA it's fair to assume almost anything Poison Weapon would be more than a slight advantage on will make that save.

    Blackravendstoltzfus
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Blackguard: Ever wanted to be an evil paladin? Now you can.
    I suspect a mod like BGTweak prevents Poison Weapon from bypassing Stoneskin, because it would be more "logical" (and that's often what mods like this one make) but I could totally be wrong.

    Something I also dislike about the Inquisitor, is that he is only effective against mages. A pure fighter with no spells, and only 2 pips in his weapon of choice is not great in melee. While Poison Weapon adds at least 12 damage (more than Grandmastery) with no saving throw, which is AMAZING in every situations (except if the ennemy is immune to poison) which also makes Blackguards better marksmen than Archers in my opinion.

    Plus the Absorb Health is really nice in BG2 as a nuke "eat that instant no saving throw 40 damage" is always cool. And finally the Aura of Despair (no saving throw once again) is soooooo goooood.

    I really like the polyvalence of this kit.

    BlackravenelminsterJuliusBorisov
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    Mages in BG2 stand out more than mostly any other enemies.

    If a Fighter needs to deal more damage, make them into a Kensai or Berserker instead of a Blackguard. If a party needs to be able to throw instant Dispel Magic/True Sight throwing the only Robe of Vecna in the game on a Mage and then waiting for the enemy to do something you need that against is wasting the robe's true potential.

    I'd rather waste a Fighter slot than a Mage slot.

    Archers already deal more damage with ranged weapons with their bonuses, access to grandmastery.

    One 40 damage nuke per rest isn't really notable. At level 20, all your Mages have 40 damage nukes. Also I'd just take a F/M and throw a bunch of disabling spells, have access to even more nukes, and in exchange for Grandmastery I get a bunch of arcane spells.

    The Inquisitor has a niche that lets the player play whichever Arcane character who has the Robe of Vecna more efficiently. While the Blackguard is really just doing stuff that F/M's do better and have the bonus of having an entire spellbook on top of it.

    Blackraven
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,101
    Blackguard: Ever wanted to be an evil paladin? Now you can.
    Tested again in BG:EE and Poison Weapon bypasses Stoneskin. I'm playibg too little this times :/

    elminsterBlackravenjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Blackguard: Ever wanted to be an evil paladin? Now you can.


    If a Fighter needs to deal more damage, make them into a Kensai or Berserker instead of a Blackguard. If a party needs to be able to throw instant Dispel Magic/True Sight throwing the only Robe of Vecna in the game on a Mage and then waiting for the enemy to do something you need that against is wasting the robe's true potential.

    Archers already deal more damage with ranged weapons with their bonuses, access to grandmastery.

    In both cases, the Blackguard will do more damage. And this damage bypasses nearly every protections not to forget if the enemy fails his save, he will take much more damages. And is the enemy is hasted, he will take double damage from Poison Weapon (maybe a bug).

    Berserk gives +2 damage, with GM (+5) it will do up to +5 damage against the Blackguard specialization (+2). So the Blackguard do 7 more damage per hit.

    Kensai are generally dual at level 9 (+3 bonuses) or 13 (+4 bonuses), but can't equip the Gauntlet of Specialization / Gauntlet of Extraordinary Specialization. Which means they will do up to +4/+5 damage against the Blackguard, once again, the Blackguard will do more damage (+8/+7).

    Both of theses kits are generally used with dual classing, which means no Fighter HLA .....

    Archer will outdamage the Blackguard in late ToB, but that's it. To reach +12 total bonus damage, the Archer needs to reach level 31 (After level 21, the Archer bonuses become +1 every 5 levels IIRC) before this, the Blackguard will outdamage the Archer.

    It is absurdly strong, and mages aren't designed to perfectly counter one specific ability (Poison Weapon) even in SCS, mages are playing better, but they can't understand that you are playing a Blackguard and they won't metagame and choose their Contingencies / Sequencers based on that, they will only select useful spells without making some powerful combos anti-Poison Weapon.

    80% of mages battles end in round 1 with a Blackguard, the other 15% end in round 2 after a True Sight and the last 5% end a bit later (Liches immune to every weapons with PfMW plus their natural resistance, mages immune to poison).

    Absorb Health also heals you for the amount of damage it has done, so a 40 damage nuke results in a 80 health gap between you and your opponent which is huge. It is also very efficient to disrupt casters in BG:EE.

    elminsterEadwyn_G8keeper
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    Berserk leaves the Fighter open to Dual Classing for buffs, Thief Traps, etc.

    You're also forgetting the extra attack granted by Grandmastery.

    Kensai dualing means access to whatever their dual class gives.

    Also Thief HLAs or Arcane spellbooks more than make up for the loss of Fighter HLAs which really amount to auto hitting and high APR for one round without needing Improved Haste.

    I also don't see the point if bringing up a mod that doesn't factor in the Blackguard. For one, it's a mod, second it's a mod that favors the Blackguard by ignoring it. I could just pick some random a mod that gives the Undead Hunter a bonus by giving it +200 damage to everything and immunity to all damage and say Undead Hunter is the best. Or make one myself.

    If the devs make SCS a permanent addition to the game sure, that'll definitely be an advantage for the Blackguard.

    Also Assasins have Poison Weapon, they can dual to a Fighter, get Grandmastery and Fighter HLA's. Can backstab. Can Disarm Traps and Pickpocket (which frees up a slot on your party that would have gone to a Thief) Or to a Mage and have an entire Arcane Spellbook.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    Mechanically, they're a Fighter that gives stuff up to do other things. So why isn't an analysis on what they gain compared to what they give up a valid point of comparison?

    Blackraven
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,873
    Blackguard: Ever wanted to be an evil paladin? Now you can.

    Mechanically, they're a Fighter that gives stuff up to do other things. So why isn't an analysis on what they gain compared to what they give up a valid point of comparison?

    because the thread is about people discussing their favourite paladin kit (or the vanilla paladin). Which doesn't have to be the strongest kit. Its not about whether paladins are better than fighter/mages or whatever.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    Which is why I'm not replying to a posts that says Paladin is the best because in my head a Paladin is supposed to be [insert flavor text]. I'm replying to posts, or portion of posts that consider the mechanical aspects as they work in the game.

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,189
    edited May 2014
    Cavalier: For glory and honor!
    @booinyoureyes, I assume that @Elrandir isn't even necessarily looking for the most powerful Paladin but rather people's favorite Paladin with limited consideration for powergaming arguments. His polls on Fighters and Rangers were called "Your Favorite Fighter", and "Most Unrivalled Ranger". The topic title "Most powerful Paladin" seems to have been chosen for the allitaration. He might have as well named this thread "Your Prettiest, Perfectest Paladin". (I know that there is no superlative of perfect.)

    I also think the kind of comparisons you were referring to are inevitable in a thread like this. In order to substantiate their views, people compare Paladins inter se, and with other classes. I think in the Ranger thread some people started comparing the Stalker (unfavorably) with Fighter/Thief to make their case for Archers more convincing. Here, by comparing the Inquisitor's Dispel Magic ability with other classes' Dispel Magic spells, and finding that no one dispels as well as an Inquisitor, people make a case for the Inquisitor as one's favorite Paladin. Likewise people may say that immunity to Hold isn't that great because it can be obtained by spells/items/berserks/potions, which would plead against the Undead Hunter.
    For people who play full parties it even makes some sense to make comparisons with other classes, to see which kit is best at filling a useful niche.

    Speaking of Undead Hunters, arguably the weakest of three kits, would you folks think it would be nice if their Turn Undead were better (more or less on par with that of a Cleric)?

    ElrandirbooinyoureyesDungeonnoobJuliusBorisov
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2014
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    Oh right my mistake, F/C duals do get better turning though at the cost of Fighter HLA's, Bladed Weapons, and maybe the base .5APR which they exchange for the rest of the Cleric Buffs and Divine Spellbook, and Grandmastery

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,189
    Cavalier: For glory and honor!
    @Gallowglass, thanks :) Don't know how it would have to be implemented though. Maybe something like Turn Undead ability starts out as that of a Cleric (TU level 1 at character creation), and every 5 levels a bonus Turn Undead level is gained, starting at level 5? That way the Undead Hunter's Turn Undead would end up exactly as powerful as that of a single class Cleric by the ToB XP cap.
    Or do you reckon the Undead Hunter's TU progression should even be better than a Cleric's? It could be argued, as for the Cleric fighting Undead is just one many things they do, whereas Undead Hunters dedicate their lives to it.

    ElrandirJuliusBorisov
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!



    Speaking of Undead Hunters, arguably the weakest of three kits, would you folks think it would be nice if their Turn Undead were better (more or less on par with that of a Cleric)?

    It would be cool if it did a certain amount of damage per second to undead or if they had an ability to give their allies a to-hit bonus against undead.

    BlackravenjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • DungeonnoobDungeonnoob Member Posts: 315
    Paladin: What? No, there's no stick in my posterior, why do you ask?

    Undead Hunter would be my favorite if they were renamed, and had better things going for them. The inquisitor gets to dispel at double his level. Why not have the Undead Hunter Turn at 2 or even 3 levels better than a single class cleric? They are Undead Hunters

    Hmm! Undead Hunters,why not give them some trap´s with holy damage?

    BlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    jacobtan said:

    They could be hunters, but they are also undead.

    Hmm ... no. If they were going to be Hunters Whilst Undead instead of being Hunters Of Undead, then I reckon they'd be a Ranger kit instead of a Paladin kit! :-)

  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited May 2014
    Blackguard: Ever wanted to be an evil paladin? Now you can.

    jacobtan said:

    They could be hunters, but they are also undead.

    Hmm ... no. If they were going to be Hunters Whilst Undead instead of being Hunters Of Undead, then I reckon they'd be a Ranger kit instead of a Paladin kit! :-)

    Make it "Hunters of Undead Whilst Undead" then!

    Actually, this isn't all that impossible. Kelemvor, reigning god of the dead, hates undead but is willing to use undead for his purposes. When he took over the portfolio of the dead from his predecessor Myrkul, he could have demanded that all existing undead priests of Myrkul had to gather to form a new order of undead priests dedicated to him, and their new assignment was to hunt down undead and lay them to rest.

    ElrandirDungeonnoobJuliusBorisov
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Inquisitor: I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!
    @Blackraven, @booinyoureyes, @FinaLfront: we seem to be building a consensus that Undead Hunters ought to have a little further boost. I wouldn't want to advocate too large a change, though. I think Turn Undead equal to a singleclass Cleric would be good, but remember that Priests of Lathander are also (in canon FR lore) specially dedicated to opposing undead, and that's also a kit in the game, so it wouldn't make sense for the Undead Hunter to be even better at Turning than a Priest who is also an anti-undead specialist. Therefore I reckon "equally as good" is a credible plan, but "better" would be over-the-top.

    ElrandirBlackravenJuliusBorisov
  • FinaLfrontFinaLfront Member Posts: 260
    Perhaps they both could get a boost to turn undead

    GoturalBlackraven
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    Undead Hunter: Somebody really hates Twilight.
    I've also pondered the Undead Hunter's comparatively meagre Turning capabilities… it should at least be significantly better than that of a standard Paladin (or other kit).

    Is anyone aware of a variable that can be tweaked in EEKeeper? I might have a play with that if so…

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,189
    Cavalier: For glory and honor!
    Given the interest in the topic of the Undead Hunter's TU ability, I've started a new discussion in Feature Requests here.

    Perhaps people could continue the discussion in that thread, so that the current thread can be used for expressing our Paladin preferences.

    ElrandirjackjackJuliusBorisovelminster
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