I have to disagree on 4th ed video game (video game only, btw). They absolutely went too far in creating a balanced game, but I think that's what would make it perfect for a video game.
You sir are 100% correct. 4th Edition reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy Tactics: grid and special abilities that heavily rely on positioning, etc.
The game plays great up until level 8 or 9 and then you clearly learn that the way HP (and lack of damage scaling) means that the system would be awesome for a video game where grinding is done quickly and calculations are handled by a computer. Unfortunately for Pen and Paper is sucks after those levels.
A good DM should be able to run a great campaign with the system until level 8 though. If really comes down to how good you DM is in any P&P RPG.
I have to disagree on 4th ed video game (video game only, btw). They absolutely went too far in creating a balanced game, but I think that's what would make it perfect for a video game.
You sir are 100% correct. 4th Edition reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy Tactics: grid and special abilities that heavily rely on positioning, etc.
The game plays great up until level 8 or 9 and then you clearly learn that the way HP (and lack of damage scaling) means that the system would be awesome for a video game where grinding is done quickly and calculations are handled by a computer. Unfortunately for Pen and Paper is sucks after those levels.
A good DM should be able to run a great campaign with the system until level 8 though. If really comes down to how good you DM is in any P&P RPG.
I will definitely agree that play/combat speed is probably 4E's most glaring weakness. My group speeds that up partially by me keeping them focused and giving them the eye if they spend to long pondering their power cards, and partially by eliminating the floating bonuses that can run rampant with powers and combat advantage. If you've got a temporary bonus to something of +2 or better, we just use the 5E advantage mechanic. Roll 2d20, and pick the better roll. If, for whatever reason, you have both advantage, and would normally roll 2d20, roll 3d20. This makes some bonuses a bit better than they were intended to be, and means more critical hits, but that also speeds up the game because things die faster.
I've been playing a 4e campaign for a couple of years. It's been a lot of fun.
I also think D&D 4e can be a lot of fun. While I personally prefer 3.0 and even though 4e has its problems so do all version of D&D and AD&D. 4e made combat for instance a lot faster, some could say dumb it down, and they are probably right but that doesn't make it less enjoyable. At least not for me. As a DM it at least made my life a lot easier. Creating monsters on the fly has been made a lot simpler.
I also love AD&D and perhaps the feel of that version made Baldur's Gate as great as it is but it also had its shortcomings. Fighters and other non casters for instance really had no real skills whatsoever. 4e gives them a slew of abilities to choose from and I find that great. More power to them.
I personally just don't see the point of this thread and the need to bash 4e. This is a Baldur's Gate forum, not a place to bash D&D versions.
The thread does seem to be somewhat relevant to BG3, as Philip Daigle announced that BG3, if there is one, will likely use whatever ruleset happens to be current at that time. It sounds like it will surely not be 4e, though, as 5e is being introduced.
5E is being beta tested, and so far only a few of its mechanics (like advantage/disadvantage) have really impressed me. It's likely not going to be out for some time, hopefully long enough that a proper 4E video game can be released.
Well, BG3 is quite a ways off. We're not going to see BG2:EE until some time next year. If Beamdog is building a new game for BG3 from the ground up that's going to take a while. It's hard to see them taking the enhanced Infinity engine and reworking it with whatever WotC ruleset is current by the time of BG3's release. So I doubt we'd see BG3 until at least 2014 (at the earliest).
It won't be wotc, it will be whichever companies hold the successful liscenses. If they judge a 4ed game won't be successful enough they won't bother to make one.
It won't be wotc, it will be whichever companies hold the successful liscenses. If they judge a 4ed game won't be successful enough they won't bother to make one.
...Then why does Daggerdale exist...And why is Crpytic bordering on development hell with a game that changed from a Diablo-style dungeon crawler to a full-fledged MMO? It can't be this hard. The BG, IWD, and NWN games already proved a successful formula, just emulate the rules as closely as possible and then give the player some people to talk to and some monsters to kill.
I think 4E would make a good video game if it played like a tactics strategy game and not real time like BG or NWN. I think it would be fun if it was turn based on a grid.
The trick for a 4th Ed game, I think (especially to make it appeal to the BG style crowd, which you'd want to do) would be to find an effective way to hybrid the open world exploration style with a turn based SRPG.
I actually think you could do it reasonably well, although it'd take some serious creativity. You'd want to build the world map in a way that it could be effectively gridded. You wander around normally (BG-style) until a combat begins. The game does a brief transition where it makes the grid layer available and roughly arranges PCs based on their current positioning (or allows a brief deployment based on the position of your main?) and plays out a SRPG style battle.
Upon completion, it transitions back.
Would allow for an interesting hybrid of open world with turn based play.
@AndrewRogue That was a good, solid post. Agree for a fair bit too. It's not my favorite system (I feel it lacks the customisation of 3rd) but it does a bunch of things right, like evening out the classes.
What they did to the Forgotten Realms in 4th is unforgivable though.
@AndrewRogue That was a good, solid post. Agree for a fair bit too. It's not my favorite system (I feel it lacks the customisation of 3rd) but it does a bunch of things right, like evening out the classes.
What they did to the Forgotten Realms in 4th is unforgivable though.
What? Finally providing a good reason why there's so many genasi PCs running around the Realms? Establishing a reason why Elminster doesn't just solve everything himself? Making changes to the Icewind Dale region that reflect the recent Drizzt novels? Oh, yes, utterly criminal.
Yes indeed. Will they try to retcon? Or will the designers of all things 4th ed be forever known as those that killed off D&D? As much as you and a 1/2 dozen others seem to like it, Wizards has all but conceded it to be a failure and is in process of trying to get their fan base back.
Heard elsewhere: Power cards? Tactical minis game?? Everyone heals themselves??? WAY too many hp at first level????
Is there a "save game" too?
Sigh..
Don't worry Schneidend, when Wiz puts out Next you can champion the 4th ed grognards fan site..
Yes indeed. Will they try to retcon? Or will the designers of all things 4th ed be forever known as those that killed off D&D? As much as you and a 1/2 dozen others seem to like it, Wizards has all but conceded it to be a failure and is in process of trying to get their fan base back.
Heard elsewhere: Power cards? Tactical minis game?? Everyone heals themselves??? WAY too many hp at first level????
Is there a "save game" too?
Sigh..
Don't worry Schneidend, when Wiz puts out Next you can champion the 4th ed grognards fan site..
Power Cards: Yeah, so everybody can actually do cool stuff besides spellcasters. You know, like real fantasy heroes.
Tactical Minis: Admittedly, a weakness of the game is that it does more or less require some visual aids. So? It's not like previous editions didn't. Opportunity attacks and who is provoking them and cones and who is in them are a little hard to run in "theater of the mind." Buy some poker chips and a grid mat, or get a good-sized dry erased board. You don't have to pay WotC a dime for this aspect of the game.
Heal Thyself: Yeah, the players can take a breather and get their second wind without constantly looking for a place to sleep for eight hours while inside the bloody Temple of Elemental Evil. You know, like real fantasy heroes. In-combat heals from Clerics, Warlords, Bards, etc. are still vital for surviving triple-attacks from dragons and other nasties. What's the problem?
Too Much 1st Level HP: Remember that time Thorin Oakenshield was KO'd instantly by a goblin's lucky crit? Yeah, me neither. Real heroes die like Boromir, with a dozen arrows in their belly fending off an entire company of orcs.
As for Next, I'll just keep playing 4E and Pathfinder. No big deal. I'll also keep on NOT crapping on other people's favorite editions, since I'm not a bile-ridden, venomous douche bag.
As for Next, I'll just keep playing 4E and Pathfinder. No big deal. I'll also keep on NOT crapping on other people's favorite editions, since I'm not a bile-ridden, venomous douche bag.
You mean like you just did in the previous 4 paragraphs? The 4ed advocates in this thread are behaving like the OP insulted thier religion or sexuality or something
As for Next, I'll just keep playing 4E and Pathfinder. No big deal. I'll also keep on NOT crapping on other people's favorite editions, since I'm not a bile-ridden, venomous douche bag.
As to the first part...fair enough. Play what you like, like what you play..that's all that matters anyway As to that last bit....I'll take a wait & see approach since you seem to pop up in every thread that mentions a passing dislike of 4th..seemingly feeling its your personal mission to try and convince everybody that their wrong about 4th and its the greatest..etc etc
As for myself...this veteran of the edition wars...I'm laying down my sword..as was mentioned above this isn't the place for it anyway.
You mean like you just did in the previous 4 paragraphs? The 4ed advocates in this thread are behaving like the OP insulted thier religion or sexuality or something
I debated the virtues of 4E over previous editions. I didn't crap on anything. Crapping would be something like the title of this thread.
As to the first part...fair enough. Play what you like, like what you play..that's all that matters anyway As to that last bit....I'll take a wait & see approach since you seem to pop up in every thread that mentions a passing dislike of 4th..seemingly feeling its your personal mission to try and convince everybody that their wrong about 4th and its the greatest..etc etc
As for myself...this veteran of the edition wars...I'm laying down my sword..as was mentioned above this isn't the place for it anyway.
It's not a personal mission to convince people of anything so much as to remind people that 4E isn't universally hated. I only comment on posts, such as this thread, that seem to hold this notion to be true. The "I think we can all agree that Edition X or Sequel Y is garbage" mentality gamers tend to have is what I can't stand. It's an assumption born in ignorance and self-entitlement.
Anyway, I'm glad you agree that this isn't the place for edition wars. Consider it dropped.
I've never played PnP, but I do read a lot of the FR novels.
I can see why people would hate the transition to 4E in the realms. Advancing the FR timeline 100 years in to the future basically means that most known characters in the realms are dead. I can also see how the razings they did to several of the pantheons would piss off people too.
As for me, I'm ok with the transition and I still love reading stories in the Forgotten Realms.
Now if only they stopped publishing many of their more recent novels as e-Books (or at least made them available outside of North America) I could actually read more of their stories.
The "I think we can all agree that Edition X or Sequel Y is garbage" mentality gamers tend to have is what I can't stand. It's an assumption born in ignorance and self-entitlement.
Anyway, I'm glad you agree that this isn't the place for edition wars. Consider it dropped.
Agree..in my 1st tour of the edition wars I was an agent of peace trying to show players that 2nd and 3rd were BOTH good editions and we could all enjoy..each having their good and bad points..but still good, playable, and fun.
After years of service, 4th ed came out. Jaded, weary, firmly entrenched in my previous editions..I've become what I myself fought against so many years ago. A old grognard. That's not likely to change these days :-)
Dropped it is..enjoy your gaming..whichever version that may be :-)
Not one D&D crpg during the whole edition might mean that poeple are losing interest in D&D, or Pen&Paper games in general for all I know. It's a bad thing.
Making changes to the Icewind Dale region that reflect the recent Drizzt novels? Oh, yes, utterly criminal.
Novels are used to flesh out the world. Bob would have been given an outline of what the story is to be like and he writes from there.
The authors are given a story idea and they have to implement it using the game rules. That's why the lesser FR novels read like someone write them as soon as they finished play testing the scene.
Novels are used to flesh out the world. Bob would have been given an outline of what the story is to be like and he writes from there.
The authors are given a story idea and they have to implement it using the game rules. That's why the lesser FR novels read like someone write them as soon as they finished play testing the scene.
I'm pretty sure they give Salvatore a lot more creative control these days. My theory is that WotC was waiting for him to finish up his The X King trilogy. How else do you explain that lore for Icewind Dale was mysteriously absent from the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide?
@Schneidend they would give him more leeway. But the 'X' King trilogy doesn't take place in Icewind Dale. Orc king is silvery marches pirate king is luskan and ghost king is spirit soaring.
I can't remember if I bought the 4e forgotten realms campaign guide (or any 4e book outside the phb dmg or mm) so I can't help there.
Well, they specifically leave out all the stuff Drizzt normally gets involved with in that book. Elminster isn't really mentioned, either, so I think they were also waiting on Greenwood or whoever is writing Elminster these days.
Not one D&D crpg during the whole edition might mean that poeple are losing interest in D&D, or Pen&Paper games in general for all I know. It's a bad thing.
@Ringo Although we aren't seeing D&D CRPG's from 4th Edition there are more contributing factors for that occurrence.
1. WoC has the license the setting out to a developer - this immediately limits the amount of parties who can develop a title. The amount of other 2. Although there are probably the same or even more people who are interested in a CRPG than the golden era of the late 1990's early 2000's, the amount of market share that is attributed to us is now smaller. IE mainstream Call of Duty Clones and Mobile games are considered the big moneymakers and thus are the primary types of games that studios seem to be making. 3. Pen and Paper RPGs are becoming more decentralized with heavy competition such as Pathfinder, the GW RPG's, Privateer Press RPG, etc. I mean when I played 2nd Edition DnD I don't remember many alternatives for a fantasy RPG. Now 4th edition is typically considered the 3rd or 4th option if you want to start a Fantasy Campaign.
Have you seen the F2P/Facebook explosion lately? Companies are going crazy with dozens of f2p versions of classics... I don't know but when they see that there isnt enough people for all of them they might start closing as fast
Fortunatly BG will not go that way, I don't believe it. I stopped looking at rulesets after 3.5 so I don't even imagine how bad they are.
Well upside round 2 for the 5e (D&D Next) Beta just started, and it seems to be moving in a good direction, I'm still holding out to see how Magic Items are Handled, same for Multiclassing, among a few others things before I give it a good solid judging.
I do however LOVE how races are handled, nice simple, and easy.
System is also more of a 2e, 3e, 4th amalgam now, which is neat.
Comments
The game plays great up until level 8 or 9 and then you clearly learn that the way HP (and lack of damage scaling) means that the system would be awesome for a video game where grinding is done quickly and calculations are handled by a computer. Unfortunately for Pen and Paper is sucks after those levels.
A good DM should be able to run a great campaign with the system until level 8 though. If really comes down to how good you DM is in any P&P RPG.
I also love AD&D and perhaps the feel of that version made Baldur's Gate as great as it is but it also had its shortcomings. Fighters and other non casters for instance really had no real skills whatsoever. 4e gives them a slew of abilities to choose from and I find that great. More power to them.
I personally just don't see the point of this thread and the need to bash 4e. This is a Baldur's Gate forum, not a place to bash D&D versions.
Gah, I just really want SOMEBODY to release a decent 4E video game that isn't an MMO. It came out 4 years ago. What is WotC thinking?
I actually think you could do it reasonably well, although it'd take some serious creativity. You'd want to build the world map in a way that it could be effectively gridded. You wander around normally (BG-style) until a combat begins. The game does a brief transition where it makes the grid layer available and roughly arranges PCs based on their current positioning (or allows a brief deployment based on the position of your main?) and plays out a SRPG style battle.
Upon completion, it transitions back.
Would allow for an interesting hybrid of open world with turn based play.
That was a good, solid post. Agree for a fair bit too. It's not my favorite system (I feel it lacks the customisation of 3rd) but it does a bunch of things right, like evening out the classes.
What they did to the Forgotten Realms in 4th is unforgivable though.
Heard elsewhere: Power cards? Tactical minis game?? Everyone heals themselves??? WAY too many hp at first level????
Is there a "save game" too?
Sigh..
Don't worry Schneidend, when Wiz puts out Next you can champion the 4th ed grognards fan site..
Tactical Minis: Admittedly, a weakness of the game is that it does more or less require some visual aids. So? It's not like previous editions didn't. Opportunity attacks and who is provoking them and cones and who is in them are a little hard to run in "theater of the mind." Buy some poker chips and a grid mat, or get a good-sized dry erased board. You don't have to pay WotC a dime for this aspect of the game.
Heal Thyself: Yeah, the players can take a breather and get their second wind without constantly looking for a place to sleep for eight hours while inside the bloody Temple of Elemental Evil. You know, like real fantasy heroes. In-combat heals from Clerics, Warlords, Bards, etc. are still vital for surviving triple-attacks from dragons and other nasties. What's the problem?
Too Much 1st Level HP: Remember that time Thorin Oakenshield was KO'd instantly by a goblin's lucky crit? Yeah, me neither. Real heroes die like Boromir, with a dozen arrows in their belly fending off an entire company of orcs.
As for Next, I'll just keep playing 4E and Pathfinder. No big deal. I'll also keep on NOT crapping on other people's favorite editions, since I'm not a bile-ridden, venomous douche bag.
As to that last bit....I'll take a wait & see approach since you seem to pop up in every thread that mentions a passing dislike of 4th..seemingly feeling its your personal mission to try and convince everybody that their wrong about 4th and its the greatest..etc etc
As for myself...this veteran of the edition wars...I'm laying down my sword..as was mentioned above this isn't the place for it anyway.
Anyway, I'm glad you agree that this isn't the place for edition wars. Consider it dropped.
I can see why people would hate the transition to 4E in the realms. Advancing the FR timeline 100 years in to the future basically means that most known characters in the realms are dead. I can also see how the razings they did to several of the pantheons would piss off people too.
As for me, I'm ok with the transition and I still love reading stories in the Forgotten Realms.
Now if only they stopped publishing many of their more recent novels as e-Books (or at least made them available outside of North America) I could actually read more of their stories.
After years of service, 4th ed came out. Jaded, weary, firmly entrenched in my previous editions..I've become what I myself fought against so many years ago. A old grognard. That's not likely to change these days :-)
Dropped it is..enjoy your gaming..whichever version that may be :-)
The authors are given a story idea and they have to implement it using the game rules. That's why the lesser FR novels read like someone write them as soon as they finished play testing the scene.
I can't remember if I bought the 4e forgotten realms campaign guide (or any 4e book outside the phb dmg or mm) so I can't help there.
Although we aren't seeing D&D CRPG's from 4th Edition there are more contributing factors for that occurrence.
1. WoC has the license the setting out to a developer - this immediately limits the amount of parties who can develop a title. The amount of other
2. Although there are probably the same or even more people who are interested in a CRPG than the golden era of the late 1990's early 2000's, the amount of market share that is attributed to us is now smaller. IE mainstream Call of Duty Clones and Mobile games are considered the big moneymakers and thus are the primary types of games that studios seem to be making.
3. Pen and Paper RPGs are becoming more decentralized with heavy competition such as Pathfinder, the GW RPG's, Privateer Press RPG, etc. I mean when I played 2nd Edition DnD I don't remember many alternatives for a fantasy RPG. Now 4th edition is typically considered the 3rd or 4th option if you want to start a Fantasy Campaign.
Fortunatly BG will not go that way, I don't believe it. I stopped looking at rulesets after 3.5 so I don't even imagine how bad they are.
I do however LOVE how races are handled, nice simple, and easy.
System is also more of a 2e, 3e, 4th amalgam now, which is neat.