You know Forgotten Realms is a wonderful universe, but I sure miss Dragonlance. They should make an AD&D game there....now that series had some incredible novels! Oh, Raistlin. I wish I could quit you.
My group switched back to 3.x/Pathfinder within three months of being bored to tears, disgusted with bad mechanics, poorly balanced gameplay (called 4E balanced was rather laughable), and bizarre mechanics (like being unable to dual-wield without being a ranger). Most missed multiclassing, found all character options to be rather cookie-cutter and without much variation, etc. After spending five rounds beating a kobold into a wall during an introductory adventure, the players just kind of shrugged and asked if we could play "real D&D" next weekend. My books have been shelved since.
Currently, I'm preparing for a 3.x/Pathfinder/2E hybrid game in the very near future, as a commemoration game for BG:EE's release. The biggest 2E influence is I'm going to do some experimenting with 2E style multiclassing (allowing players to gestalt characters and use the slower XP progressions as appropriate), which some of my players have shown interest in.
My group switched back to 3.x/Pathfinder within three months of being bored to tears, disgusted with bad mechanics, poorly balanced gameplay (called 4E balanced was rather laughable), and bizarre mechanics (like being unable to dual-wield without being a ranger). Most missed multiclassing, found all character options to be rather cookie-cutter and without much variation, etc. After spending five rounds beating a kobold into a wall during an introductory adventure, the players just kind of shrugged and asked if we could play "real D&D" next weekend. My books have been shelved since.
Currently, I'm preparing for a 3.x/Pathfinder/2E hybrid game in the very near future, as a commemoration game for BG:EE's release. The biggest 2E influence is I'm going to do some experimenting with 2E style multiclassing (allowing players to gestalt characters and use the slower XP progressions as appropriate), which some of my players have shown interest in.
Anybody can dual-wield in 4E, it's just that only a few classes can maximize the benefit from it, namely Rangers, Fighters, Barbarians, and arcane spellcasters.
4E has multi-classing. It's just not as huge a part of the game as in previous editions. It's also not as broken or as goofy as it was in 3.5 (Paladin 2/Monk 1/Sorcerer x, anybody?)
The highest HP a Level 1 Standard kobold has is 24. If you were beating on something with 24 HP for five rounds, your players either had some bad luck on their attack rolls or didn't make particularly good characters.
What? Finally providing a good reason why there's so many genasi PCs running around the Realms? Establishing a reason why Elminster doesn't just solve everything himself? Making changes to the Icewind Dale region that reflect the recent Drizzt novels? Oh, yes, utterly criminal.
@Schneidend 1) The campaign setting is not responsible for what players have as their PC. If my player tomorrow wants to play a celestial half illithid half dragon vampire and I say yes, it's not a failure of the campaign setting. Also, I believe several countries have an entry detailing how in the past human/demon/elemental/efreeti couplings were common (or still are, in Thay). 2) I've always seen Elminster and the other high level chaps as nuclear weapons. As soon as Elminster deploys himself, his level 25-30 opponent will do the same, and their opponent will also enter the field until all of Faerûn gets levelled by magical warfare. So they just pull the strings. 3) The Orc Nation is pretty cool, yes. Still, I don't think "it keeps up with the novels" automaticly means the whole setting is vindicated.
Things I thought were outright stupid: 1) Helm getting killed by Tyr because Tyr thought Helm was after Tymora, while he wasn't. The God of Justice challenged the God of Watchers to a duel to the death over petty jealousy. And Helm just rolled with it and got destroyed. Wut? 2) Mystra getting killed. Again. In D&D next, the new god of magic shall be named Kenny to better describe his role in Faerûn's history. 3) Asmodeus becoming a Greater Deity after absorbing Azuth's essence, ending the blood war in one fell swoop and nestling himself among the other deities. A strongly lawful evil god of tyranny, fear and corruption. I'm sorry, but this position has been filled. Getting rid of the devils/demons conflict is also just...no. 4) Mulhorand getting brutally destroyed by the Spellplague. Because they harboured a ton of mages I guess? Oh no wait, that was Hulraa (also destroyed). No explanation given, just 'destroyed by spellplague'. 5) Szass Tam using an army of undead to frame the other zulkirs for betraying him. The populace didn't think an army of undead was something a lich and grand-master necromancer would do apparently. Now he's Supreme Ruler of Thay, destroying the delicate balance there. 6) Abeir crashing into Toril, thus creating a new continent and allowing Dragonborn to wander around. They crashed themselves into Unther, further deleting a segment of Faerûn. Was "Toril has an ancient sister planet and they crashed into eachother so now they're one" really the best thing they could come up with?
Things I didn't like: 1) Ghaunadaur is now a Greater god. Why? Oozes and slimes pray hard I guess, that's why he's now on par with the gods of Death, Sun and Nature. 2) Generally the entire pantheon getting hit with a Demote stick. Exarchs are like divine minions, which is just embarassing for some gods. 3) High Elves are now faerie-like Eladrin all of a sudden, though I get they basicly *had* to do this with 4th Edition splitting the elves up into two types of elves (which is another point entirely but not FR related) 4) Netheril coming back as a magocracy. I liked it better as a forgotten ancient nation, only excisting in ruins. I suppose it was inevitable though. On that note, their Legendary Flying Cities are now commonplace Earth Motes. Sooo not so legendary anymore. 5) Dwarves. Even the Orcs get a major kingdom out of the deal, the Elves rebuild Myth Drannor but the Dwarves (already universally in a permanent 'dying empire' state) continue to decline, losing more lands as the Underdark crashes, the area around Mithril Hall is claimed by the Orcs and the Gold Dwarves are kicked out of the Great Rift in the south. Throw 'em a freakin' bone please.
That's all I got so far. 4th Edition has some good things, the healing surges, better balance in the races, better balance in the classes so Fighters and Rogues don't get pointless once the wizard gets 6th level spells, there's good things. But when they decided what they would do to the Forgotten Realms, they smoked a looot of weed before sending stuff to the printer.
It's probably more accurate to say that high elves always were eladrin. With high/star/sun/moon elves and wild/wood elves around, Faerun's elves were already split into 4E Eladrin-like and 4E Elf-like racial groups, so it makes perfect sense to me.
Beyond that, good points all around. I just don't mind the changes. I still enjoy reading about the Forgotten Realms, and none of my campaigns take place there.
"Neverwinter will be based around a modified version of the Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition rule set, making it the first game to use them. This will include the use of healing surges and action points, which will be implemented through a system referred to as boons, allowing a player to perform an extra special ability upon accumulating enough action points through combat and other actions."
I don't know what this talk of 4th ED being dropped or it not getting its own game - but you were wrong, oh so wrong.
I don't know if I would place too much stock in those Neverwinter trailers. I can remember when Dungeons and Dragons Online came out and watching the trailers. I was pretty stoked about getting to actually fight a dragon. Of course, the actual adventure (against the dragon) was really nothing like the trailer....not at all.
The issues that prevented me from going over to 4E and getting into the new Realms were both simple and deal breaking. I didn't like many of the changes that 3E brought either, but I changed editions because it also had some changes I liked and had nothing that just completely turned me off of it. 4E was a different story.
The big problem with 4E for me? The grid. I don't use miniatures and never have. I could have houseruled almost anything else I disliked, but the tactical miniatures game focus of 4E had its hooks in too much of the game's structure for it to be worth the trouble to excise them. There were other things I disliked(rigid class/role relationship, daily powers for nonsupernatural/nonmagical classes, etc.), but that all could have been either changed or adapted to. So it was just the one thing, really.
For 4E Forgotten Realms I have a great deal more bile. In the interest of not going on a rant, I'll simply say that if people didn't like the Realms as they were, it wouldn't have been their best selling setting. WotC got greedy and short sighted, and as a result I have not given them a single dime beyond the initial 3 core books. Given that I have owned every FR product that they published(both games and novels) since 2nd Edition, that is more their loss than mine. But of the changes made(since the spellplague was not the first RSE ever published), the unforgivable one was the 100 year jump. They effectively made every preexisting FR group decide between 4E and continuing their existing campaign, and I doubt my group was the only one that chose the latter.
@pkloop I don't know what this talk of 4th ED being dropped or it not getting its own game - but you were wrong, oh so wrong.
Since they are already working on a new edition, 4e will disappear fast. Also, when you consider that it only got 1 game as apposed to previous versions, it doesn't say much.
I always hold reservations about free-to-play games because they more often than not are ruled by micro-transactions to get advantages. I think that always brings down the overall quality of a game.
I really think buy-to-play massively multiplayer games are the way of the future (GW2). Sure the upfront cost is obviously high when compared to a f2p game, but they won't nickle and dime you for content. You're guaranteed to get great expansion packs to support the game because the devs want you to keep playing and they don't get paid if you don't buy their new content
That being said, I will withhold judgement of Neverwinter until I experience it first hand.
I really think buy-to-play massively multiplayer games are the way of the future (GW2). Sure the upfront cost is obviously high when compared to a f2p game, but they won't nickle and dime you for content. You're guaranteed to get great expansion packs to support the game because the devs want you to keep playing and they don't get paid if you don't buy their new content
That being said, I will withhold judgement of Neverwinter until I experience it first hand.
#ontopic I know there is a lot of backlash regarding 4E, but I just have to say that Wizards did a great job of making the system streamline and accessible for newer players. The rules were ezier to understand, character building was more straight forward and the turns went quickly. I think 4E was the first time I actually finished up a PNP campaign with friends, because the sessions were quick and we weren't burned out by 30-60min turns...
#ontopic I know there is a lot of backlash regarding 4E, but I just have to say that Wizards did a great job of making the system streamline and accessible for newer players. The rules were ezier to understand, character building was more straight forward and the turns went quickly. I think 4E was the first time I actually finished up a PNP campaign with friends, because the sessions were quick and we weren't burned out by 30-60min turns...
It also has to be said that the character creator WotC released for 4th is possibly the greatest invention ever. Really easy to use, has ALL the data and it prints out a fully filled out character sheet with all the details. When your character levels up, you hit the Level Up button and make your changes. That creator alone was the reason I figured I should give 4th a try.
@Drugar There were better tools for previous editions, unhindered by subscription fees and the eventual switch to online-only access. The 2nd edition Core Rules program remains the best 1st party software product from a D&D publisher. I never used the E-Tools/Master Tools from 3E because it got a bad rap initially and I started using PCGen instead, but I heard it got to be pretty decent later.
The biggest problem with the current tools is their complete incompatibility with custom content and house rules.
I used E-tools a while, but it wasn't 3.5 compatible (last I checked) and its character sheets looked clunky and cluttered. It worked pretty ok, but in the end I found it fairly lacking. Not familiar with PCGen, I'll check it out.
Not working with houserules is a major downside yes. E-tools did support that way better.
So does anyone know what the time line will be for D&D Next? My preferred time line was always 2nd ed.
If you mean the time period that the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting will be set in corresponding to Next, we don't know yet. The DnD ruleset for Next will have to be fully released first, I would think. Then at some point thereafter (or possibly right away, but who knows) they'll release the the next edition of FRCS.
@Lemernis Official word is that the Realms will be supported from the start, and that all eras of play will be supported(though I assume they mean the main eras from each edition). Also, though not directly related to 5E, in October we will see "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms," which is going to pretty much be what the Realms are like at the gaming table of its original author. So there's that to look forward to as well.
EDIT: Just found this too. Seems like Ed might be authoring the FRCS for 5E.
"Recently I've seen petitions and strong arguments that Wizards should let Ed design the Forgotten Realms for the next edition of the game. I couldn't agree more, and some of that work is already under way. The Forgotten Realms has changed a lot in the last 25 years, and although there are major themes and ideas and flavors that haven't changed at all, in some ways the Realms has veered away from Ed's original vision. He's always been on board the Realms ship, but he hasn't always been at the rudder (to use his own metaphor), and we are rectifying that even as we speak. Keep your eyes out for some big announcements along those lines in the coming months."
@Lemernis Official word is that the Realms will be supported from the start, and that all eras of play will be supported(though I assume they mean the main eras from each edition). Also, though not directly related to 5E, in October we will see "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms," which is going to pretty much be what the Realms are like at the gaming table of its original author. So there's that to look forward to as well.
That is great news! Thanks!
I'm not a PnP player, but as far as I can see in a tabletop game any particular ruleset could be combined with any of the FRCS editions. And Ed Greenwood has always encouraged DMs to make the Forgotten Realms their own to begin with, i.e., to make whatever modifications they like.
I love the fact that Ed will be releasing his own version.
Comments
Currently, I'm preparing for a 3.x/Pathfinder/2E hybrid game in the very near future, as a commemoration game for BG:EE's release. The biggest 2E influence is I'm going to do some experimenting with 2E style multiclassing (allowing players to gestalt characters and use the slower XP progressions as appropriate), which some of my players have shown interest in.
4E has multi-classing. It's just not as huge a part of the game as in previous editions. It's also not as broken or as goofy as it was in 3.5 (Paladin 2/Monk 1/Sorcerer x, anybody?)
The highest HP a Level 1 Standard kobold has is 24. If you were beating on something with 24 HP for five rounds, your players either had some bad luck on their attack rolls or didn't make particularly good characters.
1) The campaign setting is not responsible for what players have as their PC. If my player tomorrow wants to play a celestial half illithid half dragon vampire and I say yes, it's not a failure of the campaign setting. Also, I believe several countries have an entry detailing how in the past human/demon/elemental/efreeti couplings were common (or still are, in Thay).
2) I've always seen Elminster and the other high level chaps as nuclear weapons. As soon as Elminster deploys himself, his level 25-30 opponent will do the same, and their opponent will also enter the field until all of Faerûn gets levelled by magical warfare. So they just pull the strings.
3) The Orc Nation is pretty cool, yes. Still, I don't think "it keeps up with the novels" automaticly means the whole setting is vindicated.
Things I thought were outright stupid:
1) Helm getting killed by Tyr because Tyr thought Helm was after Tymora, while he wasn't. The God of Justice challenged the God of Watchers to a duel to the death over petty jealousy. And Helm just rolled with it and got destroyed. Wut?
2) Mystra getting killed. Again. In D&D next, the new god of magic shall be named Kenny to better describe his role in Faerûn's history.
3) Asmodeus becoming a Greater Deity after absorbing Azuth's essence, ending the blood war in one fell swoop and nestling himself among the other deities. A strongly lawful evil god of tyranny, fear and corruption. I'm sorry, but this position has been filled. Getting rid of the devils/demons conflict is also just...no.
4) Mulhorand getting brutally destroyed by the Spellplague. Because they harboured a ton of mages I guess? Oh no wait, that was Hulraa (also destroyed). No explanation given, just 'destroyed by spellplague'.
5) Szass Tam using an army of undead to frame the other zulkirs for betraying him. The populace didn't think an army of undead was something a lich and grand-master necromancer would do apparently. Now he's Supreme Ruler of Thay, destroying the delicate balance there.
6) Abeir crashing into Toril, thus creating a new continent and allowing Dragonborn to wander around. They crashed themselves into Unther, further deleting a segment of Faerûn. Was "Toril has an ancient sister planet and they crashed into eachother so now they're one" really the best thing they could come up with?
Things I didn't like:
1) Ghaunadaur is now a Greater god. Why? Oozes and slimes pray hard I guess, that's why he's now on par with the gods of Death, Sun and Nature.
2) Generally the entire pantheon getting hit with a Demote stick. Exarchs are like divine minions, which is just embarassing for some gods.
3) High Elves are now faerie-like Eladrin all of a sudden, though I get they basicly *had* to do this with 4th Edition splitting the elves up into two types of elves (which is another point entirely but not FR related)
4) Netheril coming back as a magocracy. I liked it better as a forgotten ancient nation, only excisting in ruins. I suppose it was inevitable though. On that note, their Legendary Flying Cities are now commonplace Earth Motes. Sooo not so legendary anymore.
5) Dwarves. Even the Orcs get a major kingdom out of the deal, the Elves rebuild Myth Drannor but the Dwarves (already universally in a permanent 'dying empire' state) continue to decline, losing more lands as the Underdark crashes, the area around Mithril Hall is claimed by the Orcs and the Gold Dwarves are kicked out of the Great Rift in the south. Throw 'em a freakin' bone please.
That's all I got so far.
4th Edition has some good things, the healing surges, better balance in the races, better balance in the classes so Fighters and Rogues don't get pointless once the wizard gets 6th level spells, there's good things. But when they decided what they would do to the Forgotten Realms, they smoked a looot of weed before sending stuff to the printer.
It's probably more accurate to say that high elves always were eladrin. With high/star/sun/moon elves and wild/wood elves around, Faerun's elves were already split into 4E Eladrin-like and 4E Elf-like racial groups, so it makes perfect sense to me.
Beyond that, good points all around. I just don't mind the changes. I still enjoy reading about the Forgotten Realms, and none of my campaigns take place there.
I'm pretty damn sure the new NEVERWINTER is running 4th ED. In Fact I am sure.
"Neverwinter will be based around a modified version of the Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition rule set, making it the first game to use them. This will include the use of healing surges and action points, which will be implemented through a system referred to as boons, allowing a player to perform an extra special ability upon accumulating enough action points through combat and other actions."
I don't know what this talk of 4th ED being dropped or it not getting its own game - but you were wrong, oh so wrong.
No doubt, I was just pointing it out to the topic creator that such a thing exists.
The big problem with 4E for me? The grid. I don't use miniatures and never have. I could have houseruled almost anything else I disliked, but the tactical miniatures game focus of 4E had its hooks in too much of the game's structure for it to be worth the trouble to excise them. There were other things I disliked(rigid class/role relationship, daily powers for nonsupernatural/nonmagical classes, etc.), but that all could have been either changed or adapted to. So it was just the one thing, really.
For 4E Forgotten Realms I have a great deal more bile. In the interest of not going on a rant, I'll simply say that if people didn't like the Realms as they were, it wouldn't have been their best selling setting. WotC got greedy and short sighted, and as a result I have not given them a single dime beyond the initial 3 core books. Given that I have owned every FR product that they published(both games and novels) since 2nd Edition, that is more their loss than mine. But of the changes made(since the spellplague was not the first RSE ever published), the unforgivable one was the 100 year jump. They effectively made every preexisting FR group decide between 4E and continuing their existing campaign, and I doubt my group was the only one that chose the latter.
That being said, I will withhold judgement of Neverwinter until I experience it first hand.
That creator alone was the reason I figured I should give 4th a try.
The biggest problem with the current tools is their complete incompatibility with custom content and house rules.
Not familiar with PCGen, I'll check it out.
Not working with houserules is a major downside yes. E-tools did support that way better.
EDIT: Just found this too. Seems like Ed might be authoring the FRCS for 5E.
"Recently I've seen petitions and strong arguments that Wizards should let Ed design the Forgotten Realms for the next edition of the game. I couldn't agree more, and some of that work is already under way. The Forgotten Realms has changed a lot in the last 25 years, and although there are major themes and ideas and flavors that haven't changed at all, in some ways the Realms has veered away from Ed's original vision. He's always been on board the Realms ship, but he hasn't always been at the rudder (to use his own metaphor), and we are rectifying that even as we speak. Keep your eyes out for some big announcements along those lines in the coming months."
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/bookwyrms/20120605
I'm not a PnP player, but as far as I can see in a tabletop game any particular ruleset could be combined with any of the FRCS editions. And Ed Greenwood has always encouraged DMs to make the Forgotten Realms their own to begin with, i.e., to make whatever modifications they like.
I love the fact that Ed will be releasing his own version.