@booinyoureyes...no. Xzar, while hilarious and great, is definitely chaotic evil and RP-wise, would only work with a good party because he's so asocially insane (thus, he'd do whatever if it met his goals, regardless of who he's with...and those goals could easy be molded to make sense because he's insane). P.S., I imagine that the idea of insanity precluding any spellcasting subsequently requires a kind of incoherency or mindlessness. While Xzar is insane, he's, most of the time, somewhat cogent (in the sense that he has innate intelligence, can draw reasonable conclusions, and follow logic), with his madness only occurring in outbursts.
@Archaos - I'm not disagreeing with you that there are conflicting rules. Basically I attended a seminar with Gary and Frank WAY back in the day. They both said "Take the rules that you like and forget the rest".
As for disparities between NPCs and PCs, that can mostly be explained by saying that only certain types of characters adventure, or that the outliers are not the mainstream. Or that someone didn't read the rules before creating the character, or creative license. Or just insanity.
Rules in pencil/paper RPG books are guidelines or "generally accepted principles" rather than carved-in-stone rules to which we must all adhere all the time. Someone wants to play a non-standard character like a halfling ranger/mage? *shrug* Sure, why not? Someone else wants to play an ogre who becomes the fighter in the party? Okay...as long as they understand that for now their character will typically be asked to stay outside whatever city the party is in. Things like "but I want to play a gold dragon who walks around in human form all the time" is ridiculous and shouldn't be done unless you (as the DM) and the player can handle it.
On topic, yes--Xzar can get you through the day. NPCs are only as weak as the players playing them.
Rasaad is only weak in BG1ee, and that's by design - the Monk class is meant to start weak and get better later, because their abilities are supposed to require long training. (The same applies to Mages, of course).
In BG2ee, Rasaad becomes a good front-line melee-fighter (mid-SoA) and then terrific (in ToB).
Rules in pencil/paper RPG books are guidelines or "generally accepted principles" rather than carved-in-stone rules to which we must all adhere all the time. Someone wants to play a non-standard character like a halfling ranger/mage? *shrug* Sure, why not? Someone else wants to play an ogre who becomes the fighter in the party? Okay...as long as they understand that for now their character will typically be asked to stay outside whatever city the party is in. Things like "but I want to play a gold dragon who walks around in human form all the time" is ridiculous and shouldn't be done unless you (as the DM) and the player can handle it.
On topic, yes--Xzar can get you through the day. NPCs are only as weak as the players playing them.
Despite the 'rules' (which I can't actually quote, so they may have been in my own mind), the guy who was our DM used to occasionally play as a character. This character was an Insane Wizard who used to have endless fun turning people into colored dots. He was quite crazy. And the other DM allowed it. So.... As stated, take the rules that you like and ditch the rest.
Now that I think about it, most of the Wizards in the game are their own special brand of 'Special'.
Edwin - power mad Xzar - more than a bit unhinged Zan - delusionally depressed Jan - "eccentric" to say the least Baeloth - almost preternaturally self absorbed Aerie - Um.... need I say more? Imoen - See Aerie Nalia -See Imoen
I haven't played much with Dynaheir to know for sure.
Currently I have both Rasaad and Dynaheir in a good-aligned party and they are doing quite well. Rasaad found this lovely scimitar that was just lying on the ground in the open along the coast in Cloakwood and it wasn't even guarded by anything...which was odd. Dynaheir is wearing her Robe of Good Archmagi (we spent all the money we had at the time for it) and is comfortably throwing sling stones at things after opening up with her Wand of Sleep--most foes are susceptible to sleep in BG1. Her personality isn't anywhere nearly as annoying as Imoen's, Nalia's, or Aerie's. I can even stand Neera in my neutral party more than those three.
My insane mage, along with an assassin with whom he was friends in the party, captured a pirate ship and became the captains. When the crew grew to mutiny demanding more money we skinned the leader, hung the flayed skin from the mainmast, and asked anyone else if they had any complaints. No one did.
Rasaad is only weak in BG1ee, and that's by design - the Monk class is meant to start weak and get better later, because their abilities are supposed to require long training. (The same applies to Mages, of course).
In BG2ee, Rasaad becomes a good front-line melee-fighter (mid-SoA) and then terrific (in ToB).
I didn't feel like writing a three sentence disclaimer after my joke.
Rasaad is only weak in BG1ee, and that's by design - the Monk class is meant to start weak and get better later, because their abilities are supposed to require long training. (The same applies to Mages, of course).
In BG2ee, Rasaad becomes a good front-line melee-fighter (mid-SoA) and then terrific (in ToB).
I didn't feel like writing a three sentence disclaimer after my joke.
Prices may seem larger when viewed in mirror. Lawyers will sue only on alternate Tuesdays or days when it rains. Agreeing to these terms and agreements include, but are not limited to total indentured servitude until such time as the mouse spins.
Honestly in my Rasaad party he's a total g. He runs up and punches things to death so fast my cleric/ranger gets bored by the time she enters battle. In BG1 he was a problem though. I had to shield him 24/7
I woulda picked Cernd for a joke. I usually do. I must have like 13 posts on this forum just bashing Cernd for absolutely no reason. If he was a real person I'd feel sooooo bad.
NPCs are only as weak as the players playing them.
A little unfair.
Rasaad is only weak in BG1ee, and that's by design - the Monk class is meant to start weak and get better later, because their abilities are supposed to require long training. (The same applies to Mages, of course).
In BG2ee, Rasaad becomes a good front-line melee-fighter (mid-SoA) and then terrific (in ToB).
I'm currently playing a SCS game with party of four including Rasaad and I have him meleeing right alongside the others--to my surprise he's done fine throughout (now in chapter 5 with Durlag's and Ice Island completed). Is it SCS? Or that he's now a Sun Soul Monk? He seemed squishier when I first tried him at the game's release.
I woulda picked Cernd for a joke. I usually do. I must have like 13 posts on this forum just bashing Cernd for absolutely no reason. If he was a real person I'd feel sooooo bad.
I woulda picked Cernd for a joke. I usually do. I must have like 13 posts on this forum just bashing Cernd for absolutely no reason. If he was a real person I'd feel sooooo bad.
"All I want to do is frolic in the forest with the bears for the rest of my life without worrying about some woman and her son... Is that really too much to ask for!? ;_; "
(The answer is yes.)
What was the topic again? Oh. Xzar and Edwin. Gotcha.
They're both pretty evil, but Xzar gets bonus points for handing you a free healing potion and acting all nice when you first meet him. What does Edwin do? Call you bad names and demand that you help him kill some random stranger for no reason other than he tells you to. Heck, my evil party almost didn't take him because he was so gosh-darn rude.
I vote Xzar. Edwin may be the better spellcaster, but Xzar is the better person. Marginally. And in a good party, isn't that what really matters?
Is it SCS? Or that he's now a Sun Soul Monk? He seemed squishier when I first tried him at the game's release.
or is it the fact that you have a party of 4 and are probably higher level than you would be with a party of six at the same point in the game? Just sayin.
Xzar makes the perfect wizard in my book. Sooo awsome! I imported him into my BG2 game as well. Never a dull momment. I chuckle when he still calls Jaheira a Harlot.
So I ran into Quayle... and he perks my interest. Neutral, a gnome (good companion to a Dwarf lead party) However I hate his attitude... I think my main character has an easier time putting up with a dark necromancer over this arrogant prick.
I tried him out and well, had to reload my save because I saw that Xzar just wandered off (last time I dumped him he hung out till I talked to him again... same spot... now he just peaces into the Thieves guild never to be found...
A part of my wants to take him for Role playing aspect due to the fact Xzar is strait up evil. However, Like I said before, Xzar might just be crazy enough to group up with some good guys in order to achieve his own personal goal. I know you guys have convinced me that Xzar cannot be a good guy.. and now after playing and reading more up on him I can kind of agree, always cursing about being too charitable and what not.... Like. he hates my party in game...
.... I just cant get this idea out of my head ..
Dr. Orpheus showing up all dark and evil offering the venture brothers pizza rolls.
I know that necromancers cannot be good in D&D... something that ALWAYS irked me as my favorite character to play (other than a Dwarf) is a neutral aligned necromancer who studies the dark arts for scientific and wisdom based purposes. In the Diablo books Zayl finds out much valuable ancient information from communicating with the dead, particularly Humbart.
But Alas, as you all can see from this thread, my party wizard is the only character I am being indecisive with, and perhaps because I want to make Xzar work as he would work in say, another fantasy universe other than D&D... but the lore nazi in me is saying "WTF are you doing?! a necro with a -good- dwarven party?! might as well have a few drow in there ! and maybe some goblins too.... you know?!... just take that arrogant bastard Quayle and make your party make sense..." But then the other part of me is like..
Nah man if Drizzt can turn his viewpoint around on the world why cant ol Xzar... Maybe after this long quest and finally fulfilling his zhent orders to defeat the iron throne, he thinks "hey, these guys arnt too bad to stick around with"
Another thing... is Quayle looks stronger, mage wise... he starts with LOTS of illusion spells as well as healing and divination spells... is good with a sling, and is a damn gnome... i love gnomes.. just not this gnome.. Only thing I dont have for him is Gear.... Xzar has specific gear and in particular the evil robe of arch magi... something I dont want to just let go lightly.
Anyways... Im just bantering, I know its my run through and I can play them like I want them la la la... but I want to do it right too... "right" as in you know.. play the game alittle bit as its meant to be played.... not just powergame it out... Like.. Im in my mature years... role play is more important than stats and base power... Anyone have feedback on Quayle? is his annoying attitude enough to keep him out of your own party in previous runs?
Necromancer's can be good in D&D, actually. Xzar sadly isn't one of them, though. He's a member of the Zhents, and is spying on your party and sending missives to his evil superiors for them to better use you... that and his lines make him very hard to use in a good party. No one wants to be spied on.
But roleplaywise? It's your game. If you want to play that your characters are slowly converting Xzar to the way of good, then go with it! Character personalities matter only so much as they make it fun for *YOU*. No one here (unless they're meaniefaces) is going to tell you that you're playing wrong having Xzar in your otherwise good party. Keep your reputation below 18 (otherwise he'll run off) and enjoy playing the game the way you like it. Xzar's a fun character, and if you enjoy him, you should play with him!
Quyale is indeed a bit annoying. With the NPC Project mod installed, the other NPC's generally shut him up, so it's more amusing to have him around with that installed. Still, Quyale can be a perfectly adequate, even good, spellcaster if you want him in your run. Single classed Xzar will be the better caster, but you can certainly get through BG1 using Quayle, if you want.
But... my opinion. You're enjoying Xzar, you have him all outfitted out, and you like playing the game with him. Roleplaying is supposed to be fun. Go along with the 'Xzar the spy' idea that's hinted on throughout the games: Xzar remains in the good party to spy on them for the zhents, and that's why he puts up with such goodness, and the good characters feel a responsibility to look after his insaneness, and thus keep his evil in the party. You can find an excuse for almost any roleplaying way you want to go: the only limit is your imagination, yadda dadda. There is absolutely no 'right' way to play BG/BG2. Anyway you enjoy is the right way.
You know what they say, keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. If your character has figured out Xzar is a spy, then you can use him for your own gains as well, he's bound to share something about his employer, being all chaotic like he is. If you didn't have Xzar you would have no idea who is after you or keeping tabs on your party.
It's like keeping a poisonous snake in a room instead of out in the backyard. It's poisonous and dangerous, but at least you know where you have it.
I just rolled up a prototype character and gave him Xzar's portrait. Then recruited Xzar and Montaron. The computer assigned Xzar a MUCH nicer portrait. The middle-aged guy with a fairly pleasant expression and a sort of green headgear of some kind. Looks kinda like a worldly=wise gypsy thief who could be almost any alignment, perhaps Armenian. Human probably.
Would change completely the experience of keeping Xzar as your main Mage on any playthrough. And of course, then you would change Charname's portrait back to your normal choice.
I just rolled up a prototype character and gave him Xzar's portrait. Then recruited Xzar and Montaron. The computer assigned Xzar a MUCH nicer portrait. The middle-aged guy with a fairly pleasant expression and a sort of green headgear of some kind. Looks kinda like a worldly=wise gypsy thief who could be almost any alignment, perhaps Armenian. Human probably.
Would change completely the experience of keeping Xzar as your main Mage on any playthrough. And of course, then you would change Charname's portrait back to your normal choice.
If Xzar looked as unhinged as his portrait and said the things he did, nobody would trust him to guard a used bedpan.
What is interesting (to me at least) is that, according to D&D PnP rules, insanity precludes spell casting. If you are insane, you can't form the spells. Technically, Xzar should not be able to cast.
Obviously this doesn't apply to BG, at all, as the series is full of crazy wizards: Xzar, Jan, Dradeel, and the whole crew of Spellhold, and I'm probably forgetting some others. They are one of the reasons why the game is so awesome!
Comments
And really, ADnD has so many contrasting rules and exceptions, it's hilarious and shouldn't really be taken seriously.
For example, ADnD says that only Humans and Half-Elves can be Druids and can only be True Neutral, right?
Well, there's an Green Elf (Wild Elf in 3E) in Elves of Evermeet (ADnD sourcebook) that is a Chaotic Neutral Druid.
Aerilaya. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aerilaya
So really, anything the "official rules" say I take it with a grain of salt and don't focus too much of it.
When even the official sourcebooks constrast the rules, you realize how silly some of them are.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/7210/xzar-vs-edwin-for-my-evil-party
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10871/what-makes-edwin-better-than-xzar
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2621
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3346
http://www.gamejag.net/forum/index.php?/topic/17649-xzar-vs-edwin-in-bg1/
You can always take both and see yourself who you like more! They are both characters with amazing voice-overs, quotes and personality.
by graffitihead from deviantart.com
Cheers!
As for disparities between NPCs and PCs, that can mostly be explained by saying that only certain types of characters adventure, or that the outliers are not the mainstream. Or that someone didn't read the rules before creating the character, or creative license. Or just insanity.
On topic, yes--Xzar can get you through the day. NPCs are only as weak as the players playing them.
Sorry I had to
Rasaad is only weak in BG1ee, and that's by design - the Monk class is meant to start weak and get better later, because their abilities are supposed to require long training. (The same applies to Mages, of course).
In BG2ee, Rasaad becomes a good front-line melee-fighter (mid-SoA) and then terrific (in ToB).
Now that I think about it, most of the Wizards in the game are their own special brand of 'Special'.
Edwin - power mad
Xzar - more than a bit unhinged
Zan - delusionally depressed
Jan - "eccentric" to say the least
Baeloth - almost preternaturally self absorbed
Aerie - Um.... need I say more?
Imoen - See Aerie
Nalia -See Imoen
I haven't played much with Dynaheir to know for sure.
My insane mage, along with an assassin with whom he was friends in the party, captured a pirate ship and became the captains. When the crew grew to mutiny demanding more money we skinned the leader, hung the flayed skin from the mainmast, and asked anyone else if they had any complaints. No one did.
...Okay, you're right that he's totally weak, but when you're adorable, you can get away with those things.
I woulda picked Cernd for a joke. I usually do. I must have like 13 posts on this forum just bashing Cernd for absolutely no reason. If he was a real person I'd feel sooooo bad.
(The answer is yes.)
What was the topic again? Oh. Xzar and Edwin. Gotcha.
They're both pretty evil, but Xzar gets bonus points for handing you a free healing potion and acting all nice when you first meet him. What does Edwin do? Call you bad names and demand that you help him kill some random stranger for no reason other than he tells you to. Heck, my evil party almost didn't take him because he was so gosh-darn rude.
I vote Xzar. Edwin may be the better spellcaster, but Xzar is the better person. Marginally. And in a good party, isn't that what really matters?
*crickets*
I tried him out and well, had to reload my save because I saw that Xzar just wandered off (last time I dumped him he hung out till I talked to him again... same spot... now he just peaces into the Thieves guild never to be found...
A part of my wants to take him for Role playing aspect due to the fact Xzar is strait up evil. However, Like I said before, Xzar might just be crazy enough to group up with some good guys in order to achieve his own personal goal. I know you guys have convinced me that Xzar cannot be a good guy.. and now after playing and reading more up on him I can kind of agree, always cursing about being too charitable and what not.... Like. he hates my party in game...
.... I just cant get this idea out of my head ..
Dr. Orpheus showing up all dark and evil offering the venture brothers pizza rolls.
I know that necromancers cannot be good in D&D... something that ALWAYS irked me as my favorite character to play (other than a Dwarf) is a neutral aligned necromancer who studies the dark arts for scientific and wisdom based purposes. In the Diablo books Zayl finds out much valuable ancient information from communicating with the dead, particularly Humbart.
But Alas, as you all can see from this thread, my party wizard is the only character I am being indecisive with, and perhaps because I want to make Xzar work as he would work in say, another fantasy universe other than D&D... but the lore nazi in me is saying "WTF are you doing?! a necro with a -good- dwarven party?! might as well have a few drow in there ! and maybe some goblins too.... you know?!... just take that arrogant bastard Quayle and make your party make sense..." But then the other part of me is like..
Nah man if Drizzt can turn his viewpoint around on the world why cant ol Xzar... Maybe after this long quest and finally fulfilling his zhent orders to defeat the iron throne, he thinks "hey, these guys arnt too bad to stick around with"
Another thing... is Quayle looks stronger, mage wise... he starts with LOTS of illusion spells as well as healing and divination spells... is good with a sling, and is a damn gnome... i love gnomes.. just not this gnome..
Only thing I dont have for him is Gear.... Xzar has specific gear and in particular the evil robe of arch magi... something I dont want to just let go lightly.
Anyways... Im just bantering, I know its my run through and I can play them like I want them la la la... but I want to do it right too... "right" as in you know.. play the game alittle bit as its meant to be played.... not just powergame it out... Like.. Im in my mature years... role play is more important than stats and base power... Anyone have feedback on Quayle? is his annoying attitude enough to keep him out of your own party in previous runs?
But roleplaywise? It's your game. If you want to play that your characters are slowly converting Xzar to the way of good, then go with it! Character personalities matter only so much as they make it fun for *YOU*. No one here (unless they're meaniefaces) is going to tell you that you're playing wrong having Xzar in your otherwise good party. Keep your reputation below 18 (otherwise he'll run off) and enjoy playing the game the way you like it. Xzar's a fun character, and if you enjoy him, you should play with him!
Quyale is indeed a bit annoying. With the NPC Project mod installed, the other NPC's generally shut him up, so it's more amusing to have him around with that installed. Still, Quyale can be a perfectly adequate, even good, spellcaster if you want him in your run. Single classed Xzar will be the better caster, but you can certainly get through BG1 using Quayle, if you want.
But... my opinion. You're enjoying Xzar, you have him all outfitted out, and you like playing the game with him. Roleplaying is supposed to be fun. Go along with the 'Xzar the spy' idea that's hinted on throughout the games: Xzar remains in the good party to spy on them for the zhents, and that's why he puts up with such goodness, and the good characters feel a responsibility to look after his insaneness, and thus keep his evil in the party. You can find an excuse for almost any roleplaying way you want to go: the only limit is your imagination, yadda dadda. There is absolutely no 'right' way to play BG/BG2. Anyway you enjoy is the right way.
It's like keeping a poisonous snake in a room instead of out in the backyard. It's poisonous and dangerous, but at least you know where you have it.
Its the night you need to watch!
Would change completely the experience of keeping Xzar as your main Mage on any playthrough. And of course, then you would change Charname's portrait back to your normal choice.