Oh and "azure red cobalt amethyst eyes" Lol. My afternoon just got better.
****
Beamdog NPCs
Hexxat
Yeah -- I've already said that I wasn't happy with Hexxat; mostly because the options after Clara's death were: 1. Killing an innocent girl is sexxy -- wanna hang out? or 2. U R DUM -- the vampire just won.
But the writing was more meh than bad: she has a history -- that she doesn't want to talk about. Great. Yawn. Time for a new game. But I liked the quests. I've been hoping for Clara DLC so we can have the quests and avoid the meh. But I think BD is ignoring those requests.
Some people like her so I think it's a cup of tea thing. My guess is the people who like her are imagining dialogues we aren't.
Dorn
BG1 Dorn was a character that I didn't like but I thought he was well written. I didn't like him because he seemed like he belonged in Greyhawk or Monte Cooke module and not in the heroic world of Faerun. Still, he seemed like a well fleshed out video game character -- half orc betrayed by his lover seeks power and revenge. BG2 Dorn -- I don't play evil parties and Dorn's first quest was so over the top that I couldn't even include him my neutral party. So, that's a problem.
Rasaad Decent writing, fun quests but I never liked monks. But BD made it easy to do his quest and then have him the leave the party.
Neera Good quests, brings the funny. Probably my 3rd or 4th favorite character.
Bioware NPCs
Cernd Cernd is as interesting as a pair of dockers and as useful as a hammer made of cucumbers.
Haer Dalis has some good lines but a 45 hp front liner that can't hit anything? Really? Bioware had to give him the rod of resurrection because he died all the time. Good dialogues, terrible kit.
Anomen Where do I start? Fine, if I am annoyed the author has succeeded in getting me to react. But, guess what, I'm not interested in being annoyed by a video game. Worst idea since Zork III's 'test of patience'
Jan Jansen BEST NPC EVER
So BD has some good NPCs and some bad ones -- as did Bioware. The problem is Bioware had 16 NPCs so it didn't matter that I didn't like 3 of them. Beamdog has 4 NPCs (and one that bearly counts) so it is a problem you don't like 2 or 3 of them.
TL;DR -- 1. Doesn't like does not equal badly written 2. BW also had some 'bad' NPCs 3. Beamdog would have more support and more money if they wrote more characters.
I'll make this short, so to cut down your post to small points.
Beamdog - Badly written characters compared to the original cast.
Original - Bad from gameplay (Haer'Dalis) view or you dislike the character based on your opinion (Cernd, Anomen).
The difference between Bioware and Beamdog have so far been a 'boring' character (Cernd, Nalia) and badly written characters (compared to the original cast). None of the Bioware ones are BAD, they aren't all up to your taste but they aren't in anyway bad, it's not like you sit down and think "God that's such a bad dialogue line" or "Damn that's a horrible character".
Same thing Imoen isn't badly written in BG2, she's lacking a massive amount of dialogues. She wasn't supposed to be in the game and her dialogue content in SoA was limited for this reason. In ToB she has some amazing dialogues with Sarevok and about her own soul and divinity.
So no Bioware doesn't have any badly written characters. In the case of Cernd and Nalia, not everyone can be a Jan Jansen, there are calm people that might seem a bit boring in the world. I found Cernds whole family situation very refreshing because it really does show how it's hard to pick between two very important things to you, and not everyone is a good parent. But as we see in the epilogue, at the end of the day he did pick his son, he didn't have a happy ending, but for a person like Cernd it makes it all the more bittersweet because he didn't have a happy life either.
And please...
A DRUID being able to shapeshift into a form who doesn't have a romance or any interest in the PC and... that thing? How can you even compare this? It's a bloody D&D druid vs a twilight copy.
And i agree with the poster above me. I apologize for bashing on Hexxat, but it's quite vital when it comes to this discussion. It's a horrible character (In my opinion!) and if that's going to happen in BG3 I (!) wouldn't buy it.
[Edited] : I'll have to correct myself, sometimes when I've played Aeries romance I've sat down and though "Oh damn, did she actually say that?" or "Please make her shut up!". But just like Anomen i'm not going to say this is a badly written character, i just don't like her, i can still see some value in her dialogues.
And let's not forget that Bioware had to write every single character in Baldur's Gate 2, they couldn't spend an unlimited amount of time on one character. Beamdog had four characters to write, and additional content that focused on those four. Imagine what could have happened to someone like Imoen if the bioware team had that amount of time on their hands, and could focus on a quest that had her in the center of attention. Hell there isn't a single NPC in the original game that have a quest that really focus on them with the exception of Jan Jansen.
Nalia - The whole keep doesn't focus around her, she has a few dialogues and that's it. Haer'Dalis - He has absolutely nothing to do with his quest, you get him at the end and that's it. Valygar - He has two or three dialogues inside the sphere with Lavok, other than that you could remove him from the sphere completely. Mazzy/Keldorn - They have a tiny fetch quest to flesh out their character a little bit.
The only quest that actually spend time on a character is Jan Jansens.
So even though they had less time on the characters, and the characters had less content, they still came out better.
1. Thank you, Beamdog. BGEE/BG2EE are fine games; we are glad that you have revived these old favorites. We'd like to see more (original) titles from you with a flexible, creative IP.
2. ... but you need to work a bit more on your writing & campaign design. We expect better; we the nitpicking, elitist, jaded, old, power-gaming munchkins that we are.
3. We'll be there to support you (and buy your game) if you listen to us .... and fulfill the prophecy.
"The game about the Lord of Murder shall perish. / But in its death, it shall spawn clones and enhanced editions. / Chaos shall be sown in their development." (... until one day one happy developer makes a better-than-original spiritual successor.)
I'll make this short, so to cut down your post to small points.
Beamdog - Badly written characters.
Original - Bad from gameplay (Haer'Dalis) view or you dislike the character based on your opinion (Cernd, Anomen).
What?! My treatise reduced to two sentences?
Ok. A few points:
1. As @elminster said, there a flaws in Cernd's story. I always took Cernd to be Bioware's retort to the fans who disliked Jaheria. You want a true class druid who uses nature metaphors all the time -- chew on this and see if you like it. I guess you could say that it is part of his flawed character that he would get his kid back just to abandon it again but it never seemed right.
2. I never minded what Aerie had to say -- but I disliked some of the protagonist's options. At some point charname becomes a life coach -- either buck up or lay down an die. Gah, I hate that line so much I can't even look it up in infinity explorer. With Raasad -- I liked all of charname's lines.
3. Quest, role in the party is as important as quality of writing. I just never had room for Haer Dalis -- which makes him the equivalent of Raasad. Decent dialogue but a kit I don't like. So the opinion / quality distinction that you have suggested doesn't quite work.
4. 'Bad writing' -- I'm not sure that BG2 Dorn is badly written, just not the adventure I want to play. BG1 Dorn was well written. Hexxat -- I am hoping that the problems with Hexxat can be fixed but also feeling a bit frustrated that they haven't been.
I think the relevance of Hexxat or any other NPC to my larger point is this: the dissatisfaction with Hexxat occurred, in part, because she was one of 4 NPCs. If she was one of 16 I doubt the 'bashing' threads would have gathered any steam at all. BG 3 needs to be like BG 2 -- to include everything and the kitchen sink.
If Beamdog doesn't want to / can't give us 16 NPCs they should stick to expansions and, hopefully, someone else will take up BG3.
@FinaLfront: I agree with you that Hexxat, being part of BGIIEE, can be discussed in this thread but, as you said, as a part of the whole, not as the main topic, as we all know how every discussions about Hexxat are going to end in this forum. As before my warning there are many post complaining about Hexxat as character and about the quality of the writing regarding her in particular, I have to say that this is enough: this topic has been discussed deeply in all possible ways, often leading to fight and flame toward users and toward the developers so please you all avoid it for the sake of peaceful confrontation and focus the discussion on other aspects of the OP that, I have to underline, doesn't focus on how bad could have been BGIIEE for some of you, or a character in particular so, if that specific aspect has to be quoted just for the sake of completeness of exposition is a thing, if it has to be quoted just to reiterate the same discordances on a specific and sensitive topic as Hexxat again, diverting the flow of the discussion mainly there, then there's something wrong and this topic will be closed.
Well, I don't think Bioware's writing of Baldur's Gate characters are completely innocent in the department of bad writing. I don't really think all of the Romances are all that great, personally- in particular, I found the Viconia Romance's themes that dipped into 'Taming of the Shrew' territory to be...problematic at times.
As for the idea of a BG III, I'm not really in favor of it. While I'd love another D&D game in 2e or 3.Xe, I think it's for the best that the Bhaalspawn saga end with BG II. It had a pretty decidedly final ending, and continuing it would likely entail not only having to deal with the 4e story updates like the much-hated Spellplague, but also with the 'canon' ending to the Bhaalspawn saga-meaning Abdel and all that. So even putting aside questions about how well it would mesh with the Throne of Bhaal ending, we need to keep in mind that what we might be asking for might not be what we get (4e/post 4e setting, abdel, etc).
How about a new game set in Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Revenloft or another D&D setting? I don't think any of them were hit quite as hard as Forgotten Realms in the move to 4e, although to be honest I haven't really been keeping up with them of late, so I wouldn't know for sure...
Given the events in the recently released Murder in Baldur's Gate adventure I don't see how a Bhaalspawn focused BG 3 is likely. Since the powers that be seem to want their products to follow "canon" there wouldn't be anything to tell a story about. The events in Throne of Bhaal have essentially been rendered "fable" Worse, the adventure in which this takes place would, in my opinion, make for a pretty terrible computer game. But, hey, at least Minsc and Boo got a statue, so that's something I guess.
From Murder in Baldur's Gate Campaign Guide:
Few know of Bhaal's plan in these events. Among those who do, many believe that the plot collapsed forever when Adrian slew Bhaal's last high priestess and denied acceptance of the accumulated power of Bhaal, instead choosing for himself a mortal life. Those who believe that fable are fools.
The Lord of Murder is in darkness, but he waits only for two victims - the last victims - to reclaim his throne of blood.
@kcwise - Yeah, I'd expect any followup on Baldur's Gate to treat it the same way 'The Old Republic' MMO treated the variable gender, alignment, romances etc that the player could have in the first two games-by reducing them to the 'canon' portrayal in the secondary material from books, comics etc.
I don't really have much hope that it would be otherwise in a hypothetical BG III, particularly considering they just recently reinforced their 'canon' vision of the Bhaalspawn Saga events with Murder in Baldur's Gate. Considering how long it has taken WoTC to introduce the halfhearted halfmeasure that is 'the Sundering' to bandaid the long-suffering 4e Forgotten Realms, I just wouldn't hold my breath for a retcon to 'Murder in Baldur's Gate' anytime soon. Which is why I just think it might be best to let the Realms (and Baldur's Gate) rest for a while...
@Dee - I once saw Armin Shimmerman at a Star Trek Convention. He indicated that the "True Ferengi" were the folks at Paramount. I think the folks at Hasbro took a lot of lessons from them. Anything for a profit.
I've said this before, and even though I know it could never happen, for so many reasons, I wish bg3 could be Baldur's Gate 3: Shadows of Amn. It would be continuous with baldurs gate 1, as in you would start with the party that killed Serevok. Two would be dead, xan would not be one of them, and you would be able to keep playing the game with the party you wanted. All of them would have personal quests and dialog, just like all the others, and they would all go through ToB. The cameos and appearances would still happen, unless you had had them in your party before, and romances and variables thingies would be transferred, so if you killed someone in bg1, they would be pissed in bg2. And if you had had them in your party and kicked the out, they would remember you, and if you had never met them, they would have no idea who you are. *sigh*
It would be nice if they made it a stand alone game that still used the same world. You'll hear about the 'heroes' or 'villains' who followed the Bhaalspawn in the game as a small backstory information. Might be a bard singing a tale about the fearless Bhaalspawn who challenged the mighty Giant that besieged the city!
Could also hear about a Sir Anomen in a temple of helm.
The world continues without our heroes, but you'll still hear about them. It could be played 50+ years after the Baldur's Gate Saga.
But this will never happen because it would have to be in AD&D. And no i don't want 3.0 or 3.5, neither NWN2 or IWD2 had as good engine and rules as Baldur's Gate.
@kcwise - never say never. If there's money to be had, I am sure someone will come up with some cockamamie rationalization. And there's always RETCON.
So something like this (warning if you don't want to read really bad writing, don't read this!)
*intro cutscene/explanation*
Abdel Adrian travels back in time to kill Sarevok before he kills Gorion. However, while he briefly stops Gorion from getting killed he fails to kill Sarevok. Rather than kill him outright Sarevok captures and interrogates him, where he eventually learns about how Abdel had (in the original timeline) originally foiled his plans. He quickly gathers his forces and kills both Gorion and Abdel (younger version). However, in his haste to kill Abdel and Gorion he leaves a trail of witnesses to the murder. Word of this spreads quickly to Baldur's Gate and questions about being behind the murder of Gorion and his ward are being asked very publicly by some of the cities highest ranking officials. The possibility of him being involved in their murder leaves a cloud over his head, which is preventing him from fulfilling his original goal of creating a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate.
*Game start*
As it turns out you are actually Sarevok. As the player you gain an understanding of the political structure that exists within the city and you are given the opportunity to decide on the direction Sarevok takes with his alignment and his actions. Including whether or not to admit to the murder of Gorion and his ward.
Topics could include.
Do you continue on your path to bring war between Amn and Baldur's Gate? Perhaps instead events unfold that cause you to consider taking an alternative path towards godhood.
What of Tamoko? Do you continue his romance with her or is she cast aside?
How do the Zhents, Harpers, Knights of the Shield, the Knights of the Unicorn and various other factions react to the growing threat of the Iron Throne and its leadership?
How do subsequent events seen in Baldur's Gate 2 (like the growth of the five) play out? How do the cloaked figures seen at the end of SoA react to Sarevok's victory over Gorion's ward?
@kcwise - never say never. If there's money to be had, I am sure someone will come up with some cockamamie rationalization. And there's always RETCON.
So something like this (warning if you don't want to read really bad writing, don't read this!)
*intro cutscene/explanation*
Abdel Adrian travels back in time to kill Sarevok before he kills Gorion. However, while he briefly stops Gorion from getting killed he fails to kill Sarevok. Rather than kill him outright Sarevok captures and interrogates him, where he eventually learns about how Abdel had (in the original timeline) originally foiled his plans. He quickly gathers his forces and kills both Gorion and Abdel (younger version). However, in his haste to kill Abdel and Gorion he leaves a trail of witnesses to the murder. Word of this spreads quickly to Baldur's Gate and questions about being behind the murder of Gorion and his ward are being asked very publicly by some of the cities highest ranking officials. The possibility of him being involved in their murder leaves a cloud over his head, which is preventing him from fulfilling his original goal of creating a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate.
*Game start*
As it turns out you are actually Sarevok. As the player you gain an understanding of the political structure that exists within the city and you are given the opportunity to decide on the direction Sarevok takes with his alignment and his actions. Including whether or not to admit to the murder of Gorion and his ward.
Topics could include.
Do you continue on your path to bring war between Amn and Baldur's Gate? Perhaps instead events unfold that cause you to consider taking an alternative path towards godhood.
What of Tamoko? Do you continue his romance with her or is she cast aside?
How do the Zhents, Harpers, Knights of the Shield, the Knights of the Unicorn and various other factions react to the growing threat of the Iron Throne and its leadership?
How do subsequent events seen in Baldur's Gate 2 (like the growth of the five) play out? How do the cloaked figures seen at the end of SoA react to Sarevok's victory over Gorion's ward?
@kcwise - never say never. If there's money to be had, I am sure someone will come up with some cockamamie rationalization. And there's always RETCON.
So something like this (warning if you don't want to read really bad writing, don't read this!)
*intro cutscene/explanation*
Abdel Adrian travels back in time to kill Sarevok before he kills Gorion. However, while he briefly stops Gorion from getting killed he fails to kill Sarevok. Rather than kill him outright Sarevok captures and interrogates him, where he eventually learns about how Abdel had (in the original timeline) originally foiled his plans. He quickly gathers his forces and kills both Gorion and Abdel (younger version). However, in his haste to kill Abdel and Gorion he leaves a trail of witnesses to the murder. Word of this spreads quickly to Baldur's Gate and questions about being behind the murder of Gorion and his ward are being asked very publicly by some of the cities highest ranking officials. The possibility of him being involved in their murder leaves a cloud over his head, which is preventing him from fulfilling his original goal of creating a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate.
*Game start*
As it turns out you are actually Sarevok. As the player you gain an understanding of the political structure that exists within the city and you are given the opportunity to decide on the direction Sarevok takes with his alignment and his actions. Including whether or not to admit to the murder of Gorion and his ward.
Topics could include.
Do you continue on your path to bring war between Amn and Baldur's Gate? Perhaps instead events unfold that cause you to consider taking an alternative path towards godhood.
What of Tamoko? Do you continue his romance with her or is she cast aside?
How do the Zhents, Harpers, Knights of the Shield, the Knights of the Unicorn and various other factions react to the growing threat of the Iron Throne and its leadership?
How do subsequent events seen in Baldur's Gate 2 (like the growth of the five) play out? How do the cloaked figures seen at the end of SoA react to Sarevok's victory over Gorion's ward?
Saying what I've said before in another similar thread:
Most like to see: using today's technology essentially rebuild what we have in the Infinity engine for the BGT or EE experience. That means it is 2nd edition AD&D (with some 3e kits). This game even looks a lot the same, i.e., it is 2D isometric and with painted backgrounds--just way more refined. One difference is that you can actually see faces of course. But anyway, the gaming experience that we know and love game is rebuilt from the ground up in HD and much better code, obviously. Make it available on consoles to introduce a whole new generation of gamers the wonder of this incredible gaming experience.
Acceptable: WotC can't bring themselves to do the above, and foist D&D Next as the ruleset. If so, bend D&D Next to make it as close to 2nd edition AD&D as possible. I can probably live with that, as long as the game basically feels a lot like the BG series.
With first scenario I think they do have a surefire success for the actual gaming experience. (And it then will truly deserve to be named BG3, even with a new story that picks up in some way from the legacy of the BG series story.) The gamble is whether the console version captures the console gamer market.
With the second scenario they risk making a game that ends up being just another pale imitation.
@Lemernis - with scenario 1, other than a new story and crisper graphics, what does that bring to the table that necessitates creating a whole new engine? Just asking.
I don't (conceptually) have a problem with scenario 2 so long as the writing is crisp, the choices are many, the NPCs are engaging and the rules sets aren't dumbed down ahem.... Simplified from 2E.
But then (and I think this is why it won't happen) the lions share of the core BG market are PRO 2E. Further, we have been very vocal about being hyper critical of anything else. I think that the perception is, "Why try and sway a market that has already weighted in heavily on 2E and against what they WANT to promote?"
Essentially, and without making any kind of a qualitative value judgement on subsequent rule sets, they would have to fight the very market base that they would hope would float them.
BG3 should focus on a whole new story with only a few connections to the previous games. That dude and his party is on such an epic level what new adventure can they do anymore? fighting planets like saturn?
A fresh beginning in the known areas with tales of the heroes and villains would be awesome and dungeons or keeps like de árnise keep etc. were never destroyed so there is plenty of great background storys to continue on.
And WotC would never ever allow a D&D game not being based on their new rules. If we like it or not, their interest is not always the same as the players... and surely they dont care about old school people who think they are money loving office dudes in secret...
i mean. Someone show me a PICTURE of the top guys of WotC and we all know who they are. It´s realy easy as that.
I could think of any number of scenarios that would reset the level bar for any potential BG3. I am sure that better minds than mine could do so as well. I don't doubt the ability of someone to come up with something (story wise) to make it fun and interesting. Some examples:
Another Bhaalspawn's story.
Charname gets defeated and sent back to being a mortal sans all of his/her memories and levels and abilities, only to have to claw his way back to the throne
Charname's child seeking answers to what happened to his parent an discovering his hereditary inheritance.
Bhaalspawn the next generation. A new Generation of Bhaal going around planting his seed after his fall and subsequent return to power.
Another God pulls the same crap, seeding the land with his progeny.
The Harpers (or some other group) want to set about preventing that type of thing from happening again so they train 'The chosen one' to combat the forces of darkness. One girl in all the world to fight the vampires and the forces of... Oh, wait. That's Buffy. never mind.
Another random set of adventures with some nameless Charname with no particular destiny.
The possibilities are endless. It could be done. Just saying "Would it be done?"
Saying what I've said before in another similar thread:
Most like to see: using today's technology essentially rebuild what we have in the Infinity engine for the BGT or EE experience. That means it is 2nd edition AD&D (with some 3e kits). This game even looks a lot the same, i.e., it is 2D isometric and with painted backgrounds--just way more refined. One difference is that you can actually see faces of course. But anyway, the gaming experience that we know and love game is rebuilt from the ground up in HD and much better code, obviously. Make it available on consoles to introduce a whole new generation of gamers the wonder of this incredible gaming experience.
Given that the current plan is to finish the BG 1 patch, finish BG2 android and then work on BG2 patch we will be lucky to see BG 2 patch before November. I think the last news on adventure Y was a year ago, there is a IWD remake in the works so, at the current rate . . .
A new infinity engine with all of the spells and features that current engine has? I'm guessing 2018 for a beta, 2020 for the fully patched engine and 2022 for an expansion. Expect to pay for new spells and features. Expect bugs. This is part of why I would to see any future module, sequel or whathaveyou start with the current engine and for the devs to devote their time to content creation. I really think that is the *only* chance for any large project to be completed before 2016.
@Lemernis - with scenario 1, other than a new story and crisper graphics, what does that bring to the table that necessitates creating a whole new engine? Just asking.
Actually it would be something close to what the EEs could have been if the original 3D artwork hadn't been lost. But obviously it could be much more because they're building from the ground up. And it is a new story perhaps involving the city of Baldur's Gate, and likely the legacy of either Abdel Adrian or Gorion's Ward, depending on how that is approached.
It would be taking a classic gaming experience and enhancing it truly to the present state of the art, making it available via console to a whole new generation.
@Lemernis - with scenario 1, other than a new story and crisper graphics, what does that bring to the table that necessitates creating a whole new engine? Just asking.
Actually it would be something close to what the EEs could have been if the original 3D artwork hadn't been lost. But obviously it could be much more because they're building from the ground up. And it is a new story perhaps involving the city of Baldur's Gate, and likely the legacy of either Abdel Adrian or Gorion's Ward, depending on how that is approached.
It would be taking a classic gaming experience and enhancing it truly to the present state of the art, making it available via console to a whole new generation.
I guess my question was, if all we would get would be enhanced artwork, would it be more of a value add merely to create more content instead of investing in a whole new engine? Either way, I'd be happy. Just saying Cost/benefit wise...
@the_spyder, but it would be a new engine--it would have to be! (If it is being designed from scratch, it's new--plus it's got to be designed for console.). I'm saying give us the same gaming experience but with a brand spanking new engine.
But I would also like to see a throwback to more of the more obscure specialty kits that were available in 2nd edition (?) (iirc, which is a big question mark). For example, I distinctly recall reading about the Shaman kit in an early source book.
@lemernis Thus far the console friendly engines have not been a success. Dark Alliance, PoR: Ruins of Myth Drannor.
I remember similar discussions on the Bioware board about the superiority of 3D engines -- but the infinity engine remain more popular than the engines that were anticipated to replace it . . .
@the_spyder, but it would be a new engine--it would have to be! (If it is being designed from scratch, it's new--plus it's got to be designed for console.). I'm saying give us the same gaming experience but with a brand spanking new engine.
But I would also like to see a throwback to more of the more obscure specialty kits that were available in 2nd edition (?) (iirc, which is a big question mark). For example, I distinctly recall reading about the Shaman kit in an early source book.
I'm not making myself clear. I get that you are suggesting a new engine. I am asking why one is needed if the only upgrade is graphics. BG stands well on it's own without fantastic graphics (personal opinion).
And consider from Hasbro's perspective. They want to make a profit. That means low start up costs. They want to sell a lot of units. That means low(ish) price for a niche market game like BG. Which means "Prove to me the need for a new engine" when an existing engine exists and the only upgrade is graphics.
I am not arguing against a new engine, because that would be nice from this consumer's perspective. I am merely playing devil's advocate. Make the business case for the new engine. That's all I am saying.
Comments
Oh and "azure red cobalt amethyst eyes" Lol. My afternoon just got better.
****
Beamdog NPCs
Hexxat
Yeah -- I've already said that I wasn't happy with Hexxat; mostly because the options after Clara's death were: 1. Killing an innocent girl is sexxy -- wanna hang out? or 2. U R DUM -- the vampire just won.
But the writing was more meh than bad: she has a history -- that she doesn't want to talk about. Great. Yawn. Time for a new game. But I liked the quests. I've been hoping for Clara DLC so we can have the quests and avoid the meh. But I think BD is ignoring those requests.
Some people like her so I think it's a cup of tea thing. My guess is the people who like her are imagining dialogues we aren't.
Dorn
BG1 Dorn was a character that I didn't like but I thought he was well written. I didn't like him because he seemed like he belonged in Greyhawk or Monte Cooke module and not in the heroic world of Faerun. Still, he seemed like a well fleshed out video game character -- half orc betrayed by his lover seeks power and revenge. BG2 Dorn -- I don't play evil parties and Dorn's first quest was so over the top that I couldn't even include him my neutral party. So, that's a problem.
Rasaad Decent writing, fun quests but I never liked monks. But BD made it easy to do his quest and then have him the leave the party.
Neera Good quests, brings the funny. Probably my 3rd or 4th favorite character.
Bioware NPCs
Cernd Cernd is as interesting as a pair of dockers and as useful as a hammer made of cucumbers.
Haer Dalis has some good lines but a 45 hp front liner that can't hit anything? Really? Bioware had to give him the rod of resurrection because he died all the time. Good dialogues, terrible kit.
Anomen Where do I start? Fine, if I am annoyed the author has succeeded in getting me to react. But, guess what, I'm not interested in being annoyed by a video game. Worst idea since Zork III's 'test of patience'
Jan Jansen BEST NPC EVER
So BD has some good NPCs and some bad ones -- as did Bioware. The problem is Bioware had 16 NPCs so it didn't matter that I didn't like 3 of them. Beamdog has 4 NPCs (and one that bearly counts) so it is a problem you don't like 2 or 3 of them.
TL;DR -- 1. Doesn't like does not equal badly written 2. BW also had some 'bad' NPCs 3. Beamdog would have more support and more money if they wrote more characters.
I'll make this short, so to cut down your post to small points.
Beamdog - Badly written characters compared to the original cast.
Original - Bad from gameplay (Haer'Dalis) view or you dislike the character based on your opinion (Cernd, Anomen).
@elminster
The difference between Bioware and Beamdog have so far been a 'boring' character (Cernd, Nalia) and badly written characters (compared to the original cast). None of the Bioware ones are BAD, they aren't all up to your taste but they aren't in anyway bad, it's not like you sit down and think "God that's such a bad dialogue line" or "Damn that's a horrible character".
Same thing Imoen isn't badly written in BG2, she's lacking a massive amount of dialogues. She wasn't supposed to be in the game and her dialogue content in SoA was limited for this reason. In ToB she has some amazing dialogues with Sarevok and about her own soul and divinity.
So no Bioware doesn't have any badly written characters. In the case of Cernd and Nalia, not everyone can be a Jan Jansen, there are calm people that might seem a bit boring in the world. I found Cernds whole family situation very refreshing because it really does show how it's hard to pick between two very important things to you, and not everyone is a good parent. But as we see in the epilogue, at the end of the day he did pick his son, he didn't have a happy ending, but for a person like Cernd it makes it all the more bittersweet because he didn't have a happy life either.
And please...
A DRUID being able to shapeshift into a form who doesn't have a romance or any interest in the PC and... that thing? How can you even compare this? It's a bloody D&D druid vs a twilight copy.
And i agree with the poster above me. I apologize for bashing on Hexxat, but it's quite vital when it comes to this discussion. It's a horrible character (In my opinion!) and if that's going to happen in BG3 I (!) wouldn't buy it.
[Edited] : I'll have to correct myself, sometimes when I've played Aeries romance I've sat down and though "Oh damn, did she actually say that?" or "Please make her shut up!". But just like Anomen i'm not going to say this is a badly written character, i just don't like her, i can still see some value in her dialogues.
And let's not forget that Bioware had to write every single character in Baldur's Gate 2, they couldn't spend an unlimited amount of time on one character. Beamdog had four characters to write, and additional content that focused on those four. Imagine what could have happened to someone like Imoen if the bioware team had that amount of time on their hands, and could focus on a quest that had her in the center of attention. Hell there isn't a single NPC in the original game that have a quest that really focus on them with the exception of Jan Jansen.
Nalia - The whole keep doesn't focus around her, she has a few dialogues and that's it.
Haer'Dalis - He has absolutely nothing to do with his quest, you get him at the end and that's it.
Valygar - He has two or three dialogues inside the sphere with Lavok, other than that you could remove him from the sphere completely.
Mazzy/Keldorn - They have a tiny fetch quest to flesh out their character a little bit.
The only quest that actually spend time on a character is Jan Jansens.
So even though they had less time on the characters, and the characters had less content, they still came out better.
This will be my last post on the subject.
1. Thank you, Beamdog.
BGEE/BG2EE are fine games; we are glad that you have revived these old favorites. We'd like to see more (original) titles from you with a flexible, creative IP.
2. ... but you need to work a bit more on your writing & campaign design. We expect better; we the nitpicking, elitist, jaded, old, power-gaming munchkins that we are.
3. We'll be there to support you (and buy your game) if you listen to us .... and fulfill the prophecy.
"The game about the Lord of Murder shall perish. / But in its death, it shall spawn clones and enhanced editions. / Chaos shall be sown in their development."
(... until one day one happy developer makes a better-than-original spiritual successor.)
Ok. A few points:
1. As @elminster said, there a flaws in Cernd's story. I always took Cernd to be Bioware's retort to the fans who disliked Jaheria. You want a true class druid who uses nature metaphors all the time -- chew on this and see if you like it. I guess you could say that it is part of his flawed character that he would get his kid back just to abandon it again but it never seemed right.
2. I never minded what Aerie had to say -- but I disliked some of the protagonist's options. At some point charname becomes a life coach -- either buck up or lay down an die. Gah, I hate that line so much I can't even look it up in infinity explorer. With Raasad -- I liked all of charname's lines.
3. Quest, role in the party is as important as quality of writing. I just never had room for Haer Dalis -- which makes him the equivalent of Raasad. Decent dialogue but a kit I don't like. So the opinion / quality distinction that you have suggested doesn't quite work.
4. 'Bad writing' -- I'm not sure that BG2 Dorn is badly written, just not the adventure I want to play. BG1 Dorn was well written. Hexxat -- I am hoping that the problems with Hexxat can be fixed but also feeling a bit frustrated that they haven't been.
And @Metalloman I obviously agree with @FinaLfront .
I think the relevance of Hexxat or any other NPC to my larger point is this: the dissatisfaction with Hexxat occurred, in part, because she was one of 4 NPCs. If she was one of 16 I doubt the 'bashing' threads would have gathered any steam at all. BG 3 needs to be like BG 2 -- to include everything and the kitchen sink.
If Beamdog doesn't want to / can't give us 16 NPCs they should stick to expansions and, hopefully, someone else will take up BG3.
As for the idea of a BG III, I'm not really in favor of it. While I'd love another D&D game in 2e or 3.Xe, I think it's for the best that the Bhaalspawn saga end with BG II. It had a pretty decidedly final ending, and continuing it would likely entail not only having to deal with the 4e story updates like the much-hated Spellplague, but also with the 'canon' ending to the Bhaalspawn saga-meaning Abdel and all that. So even putting aside questions about how well it would mesh with the Throne of Bhaal ending, we need to keep in mind that what we might be asking for might not be what we get (4e/post 4e setting, abdel, etc).
How about a new game set in Dark Sun, Greyhawk, Revenloft or another D&D setting? I don't think any of them were hit quite as hard as Forgotten Realms in the move to 4e, although to be honest I haven't really been keeping up with them of late, so I wouldn't know for sure...
From Murder in Baldur's Gate Campaign Guide:
I don't really have much hope that it would be otherwise in a hypothetical BG III, particularly considering they just recently reinforced their 'canon' vision of the Bhaalspawn Saga events with Murder in Baldur's Gate. Considering how long it has taken WoTC to introduce the halfhearted halfmeasure that is 'the Sundering' to bandaid the long-suffering 4e Forgotten Realms, I just wouldn't hold my breath for a retcon to 'Murder in Baldur's Gate' anytime soon. Which is why I just think it might be best to let the Realms (and Baldur's Gate) rest for a while...
It would be continuous with baldurs gate 1, as in you would start with the party that killed Serevok. Two would be dead, xan would not be one of them, and you would be able to keep playing the game with the party you wanted. All of them would have personal quests and dialog, just like all the others, and they would all go through ToB. The cameos and appearances would still happen, unless you had had them in your party before, and romances and variables thingies would be transferred, so if you killed someone in bg1, they would be pissed in bg2. And if you had had them in your party and kicked the out, they would remember you, and if you had never met them, they would have no idea who you are.
*sigh*
Could also hear about a Sir Anomen in a temple of helm.
The world continues without our heroes, but you'll still hear about them. It could be played 50+ years after the Baldur's Gate Saga.
But this will never happen because it would have to be in AD&D. And no i don't want 3.0 or 3.5, neither NWN2 or IWD2 had as good engine and rules as Baldur's Gate.
*intro cutscene/explanation*
Abdel Adrian travels back in time to kill Sarevok before he kills Gorion. However, while he briefly stops Gorion from getting killed he fails to kill Sarevok. Rather than kill him outright Sarevok captures and interrogates him, where he eventually learns about how Abdel had (in the original timeline) originally foiled his plans. He quickly gathers his forces and kills both Gorion and Abdel (younger version). However, in his haste to kill Abdel and Gorion he leaves a trail of witnesses to the murder. Word of this spreads quickly to Baldur's Gate and questions about being behind the murder of Gorion and his ward are being asked very publicly by some of the cities highest ranking officials. The possibility of him being involved in their murder leaves a cloud over his head, which is preventing him from fulfilling his original goal of creating a war between Amn and Baldur's Gate.
*Game start*
As it turns out you are actually Sarevok. As the player you gain an understanding of the political structure that exists within the city and you are given the opportunity to decide on the direction Sarevok takes with his alignment and his actions. Including whether or not to admit to the murder of Gorion and his ward.
Topics could include.
Do you continue on your path to bring war between Amn and Baldur's Gate? Perhaps instead events unfold that cause you to consider taking an alternative path towards godhood.
What of Tamoko? Do you continue his romance with her or is she cast aside?
How do the Zhents, Harpers, Knights of the Shield, the Knights of the Unicorn and various other factions react to the growing threat of the Iron Throne and its leadership?
How do subsequent events seen in Baldur's Gate 2 (like the growth of the five) play out? How do the cloaked figures seen at the end of SoA react to Sarevok's victory over Gorion's ward?
Hehe...I was actually in the process of writing the above when you posted this.
Most like to see: using today's technology essentially rebuild what we have in the Infinity engine for the BGT or EE experience. That means it is 2nd edition AD&D (with some 3e kits). This game even looks a lot the same, i.e., it is 2D isometric and with painted backgrounds--just way more refined. One difference is that you can actually see faces of course. But anyway, the gaming experience that we know and love game is rebuilt from the ground up in HD and much better code, obviously. Make it available on consoles to introduce a whole new generation of gamers the wonder of this incredible gaming experience.
Acceptable: WotC can't bring themselves to do the above, and foist D&D Next as the ruleset. If so, bend D&D Next to make it as close to 2nd edition AD&D as possible. I can probably live with that, as long as the game basically feels a lot like the BG series.
With first scenario I think they do have a surefire success for the actual gaming experience. (And it then will truly deserve to be named BG3, even with a new story that picks up in some way from the legacy of the BG series story.) The gamble is whether the console version captures the console gamer market.
With the second scenario they risk making a game that ends up being just another pale imitation.
I don't (conceptually) have a problem with scenario 2 so long as the writing is crisp, the choices are many, the NPCs are engaging and the rules sets aren't dumbed down ahem.... Simplified from 2E.
But then (and I think this is why it won't happen) the lions share of the core BG market are PRO 2E. Further, we have been very vocal about being hyper critical of anything else. I think that the perception is, "Why try and sway a market that has already weighted in heavily on 2E and against what they WANT to promote?"
Essentially, and without making any kind of a qualitative value judgement on subsequent rule sets, they would have to fight the very market base that they would hope would float them.
Without being elitist or cynical (much).
A fresh beginning in the known areas with tales of the heroes and villains would be awesome and dungeons or keeps like de árnise keep etc. were never destroyed so there is plenty of great background storys to continue on.
And WotC would never ever allow a D&D game not being based on their new rules. If we like it or not, their interest is not always the same as the players... and surely they dont care about old school people who think they are money loving office dudes in secret...
i mean. Someone show me a PICTURE of the top guys of WotC and we all know who they are. It´s realy easy as that.
Another Bhaalspawn's story.
Charname gets defeated and sent back to being a mortal sans all of his/her memories and levels and abilities, only to have to claw his way back to the throne
Charname's child seeking answers to what happened to his parent an discovering his hereditary inheritance.
Bhaalspawn the next generation. A new Generation of Bhaal going around planting his seed after his fall and subsequent return to power.
Another God pulls the same crap, seeding the land with his progeny.
The Harpers (or some other group) want to set about preventing that type of thing from happening again so they train 'The chosen one' to combat the forces of darkness. One girl in all the world to fight the vampires and the forces of... Oh, wait. That's Buffy. never mind.
Another random set of adventures with some nameless Charname with no particular destiny.
The possibilities are endless. It could be done. Just saying "Would it be done?"
A new infinity engine with all of the spells and features that current engine has? I'm guessing 2018 for a beta, 2020 for the fully patched engine and 2022 for an expansion. Expect to pay for new spells and features. Expect bugs. This is part of why I would to see any future module, sequel or whathaveyou start with the current engine and for the devs to devote their time to content creation. I really think that is the *only* chance for any large project to be completed before 2016.
It would be taking a classic gaming experience and enhancing it truly to the present state of the art, making it available via console to a whole new generation.
Good writing, infinity engine, comparable to BG2 in size and quality.
But I would also like to see a throwback to more of the more obscure specialty kits that were available in 2nd edition (?) (iirc, which is a big question mark). For example, I distinctly recall reading about the Shaman kit in an early source book.
I remember similar discussions on the Bioware board about the superiority of 3D engines -- but the infinity engine remain more popular than the engines that were anticipated to replace it . . .
And consider from Hasbro's perspective. They want to make a profit. That means low start up costs. They want to sell a lot of units. That means low(ish) price for a niche market game like BG. Which means "Prove to me the need for a new engine" when an existing engine exists and the only upgrade is graphics.
I am not arguing against a new engine, because that would be nice from this consumer's perspective. I am merely playing devil's advocate. Make the business case for the new engine. That's all I am saying.