I really love it too. It's amazing how many people do, good old lol is mentioned by people all over the world daily.
@Silverstar: dear Raccoon friend of mine and of this forum, you're absolutely right, and generally I try to avoid certain kind of acronyms, preferring the good ol' words than the
Actually, new cinematics quality is the direct result of the very limited resources, as re-rendering original cinematics in HD would be far too expensive. It's not because of pure laziness.
I really love it too. It's amazing how many people do, good old lol is mentioned by people all over the world daily.
@Silverstar: dear Raccoon friend of mine and of this forum, you're absolutely right, and generally I try to avoid certain kind of acronyms, preferring the good ol' words than the internet vocabulary... but really... nothing in this case was stronger than "LoL". ;P
I really love it too. It's amazing how many people do, good old lol is mentioned by people all over the world daily.
@Silverstar: dear Raccoon friend of mine and of this forum, you're absolutely right, and generally I try to avoid certain kind of acronyms, preferring the good ol' words than the internet vocabulary... but really... nothing in this case was stronger than "LoL" ;P
...you know, I am quite happy with BGEE and BG2EE and if Beamdog decided to create BG3 as a multiplayer first-person-shooter, I probably would buy it as well...
P.S.: I liked the new cinematics much more than the old ones. Semi-static artwork cinematic is a trend some other games took and used well. Like Guild Wars 2 for example.
P.P.S : Maybe I should have used the unpopular opinion animal meme...
if Beamdog decided to create BG3 as a multiplayer first-person-shooter, I probably would buy it as well...
I, on the other hand, would not.
Although, I do admit to actually really enjoying the Eye of the Beholder series. I just don't think that justice could be done with the real time 'Shooter' style action games that are out today. Personal opinion.
But I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. They can hire talented writers; but also vision is needed for compelling campaign design.
I disagree. I like writers like George Martin who use sophisticated techniques like the unreliable narrator, I like reading Tolkien, an author who understood the layers of meaning in every word he put on paper and I like me some jokes about turnips.
This is D&D and you grade accordingly -- Neera was lots of fun and she reminded me of a high school friend; while I don't really care for monks I found the liked the lines of the protagonist in Raasad's quest. mmm mmm twofold truth! The writing has been as good as any D&D writing I've read.
For me the three things BD has going for it are: 1. The quality of the writing 2. The "give the money to the programer's" mentality and 3. It's BG.
What I really want are infinity engine modules. Adventure Y, Adventure Z and then start again with Adventure A.
Fine. But *depth* was missing from the new content in many occasions.
Surely they can afford a little more depth than what we have seen so far. (Perhaps, I am unfairly biased because of the existence of Torment. If Torment was possible once, its quality surely should be reproducible again today...)
Yeah, I agree that Torment was fantastic story. And probably that stories / quests / puzzles are more interesting that big bad boss fights. Lets hope someone is listening and that another Torment gets made
It's the spiritual successor to Planescape:Torment. Many of the minds that made or helped create the Planescape setting are in (Colin McComb, Monte Cook), as well as Chris Avellone, the Lead Designer of Planescape Torment.
It also surpassed Project Eternity in Kickstarter funds.
So it will really have the soul of Planescape Torment. It's not just a "Torment" game in name only.
(Also, in my opinion, they have yet to prove they got the chops as compelling story tellers of the caliber that brought the original BG/BG2/IWD/Torment.)
and the rules aren't so dumbed down and handicapped such that it feels like a console game, I'd accept that.
Ahh, good ol' elitism. I've played plenty of complicated console games, but I'm being silly, of course. On these forums, I'm supposed to say all console games are Satan spawn, and the world would be better without them. Because casual players ruin the scene right? Except wait, casual players make the scene actually profitable. All us angry nerds are totally unreliable; half of the time we are so impassioned we end up boycotting a game and not buying it for whatever insignificant reason.
But I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. They can hire talented writers; but also vision is needed for compelling campaign design.
I disagree. I like writers like George Martin who use sophisticated techniques like the unreliable narrator, I like reading Tolkien, an author who understood the layers of meaning in every word he put on paper and I like me some jokes about turnips.
This is D&D and you grade accordingly -- Neera was lots of fun and she reminded me of a high school friend; while I don't really care for monks I found the liked the lines of the protagonist in Raasad's quest. mmm mmm twofold truth! The writing has been as good as any D&D writing I've read.
For me the three things BD has going for it are: 1. The quality of the writing 2. The "give the money to the programer's" mentality and 3. It's BG.
What I really want are infinity engine modules. Adventure Y, Adventure Z and then start again with Adventure A.
Then all i can say is that none of the NPC cast in BG2 should be in a D&D game. Because if you grade Hexxat, Rasaad and Dorn high on the scale of D&D, the original cast would not belong in that same category.
Haer'Dalis Jan Jansen Anomen
Even CERND is better written than any of the beamdog characters.
I know this has been posted many times already, but let me remind you.
LESBIAN - VAMPIRE - THAT - YOU - CAN - ROMANCE.
It's like a bad NPC mod. The only thing missing for her was dying out of heart ache ALA Saerlith.
Wait, i apologize, that was badly written of me, should give her more credit than that. She would most probably go out in the sun and throw us an emotional stare with her amazing azure red cobalt amethyst eyes before turning into dust like in a bad blade movie.
I apologize for my strong opinion, but that's just an insult to the original cast. And there is no better game written out there than Planescape Torment.
@SionIV Is that bad writting or you just don't new NPCs? There is fundamental difference between bad writing and not liking/hating something.
And, personally I think you don't have to apologize for "strong opinion". At least it shows that you have some guts.
Is it bad writing? Not really.
Is it bad writing in BALDUR'S GATE? Yes!
It would probably have done fine in a game like Dungeon Siege or Diablo. It does not belong in Baldur's Gate.
And i do not wish to offend anyone, especially not the people at Beamdog. They have done a great job when it comes to BGEE and I've given up on BGT and play BGEE full time now. But i'm not doing that because of the additional NPC's, I try to avoid them.
Rasaad is somewhat fine, and the whole Idea of a monk NPC is really good!
Dorn is too much for me, he just seems stupid in my opinion. Killing one or two people are fine, the mass slaughter does not belong in my evil teams.
Neera is a fun enough characters. But you should be able to look at her for what she is, a teenage romance with a little comic relief on the side. She is in no way a serious character.
Hexxat is just.. I can't even explain how bad she is.
and the rules aren't so dumbed down and handicapped such that it feels like a console game, I'd accept that.
Ahh, good ol' elitism. I've played plenty of complicated console games, but I'm being silly, of course. On these forums, I'm supposed to say all console games are Satan spawn, and the world would be better without them. Because casual players ruin the scene right? Except wait, casual players make the scene actually profitable. All us angry nerds are totally unreliable; half of the time we are so impassioned we end up boycotting a game and not buying it for whatever insignificant reason.
Not in the least. I have been spending far to many hours recently playing Dark Souls on my PS3. I think it is an EXTREMELY fun game and very complex game. I don't look down on consoles. But equally, there is a feel to games like BG that I have not experienced on a console game. Call it a level of complexity? Whatever. If you compare BG to Halo or even Titan Fall, they are VERY different in complexity and choice options. That's all i was saying.
If there's any elitism going on, it isn't on this end of the equation.
Also, speaking of Diablo... *That* used to have half-decent lore once upon a time. Then whats-his-name's spice-melange supply dried up, or whatever, and I find that after the Diablo 3 fiasco (and I mean just the story here)... I'm no longer buying Blizzard games anymore.
Seriously, the new Diablo 3 expansion is the first Blizzard game I didn't buy on release (and don't intend to buy in the future). And I never played multiplayer; never finished even "Nightmare" difficulty or whatever; but it was decent story telling always (with excellent cinematics) and I considered my $50 well spent for that.
Pfafh! Not anymore, apparently. My faith is shaken.
Give a me a good story where I am the Hero! And good game play where my investment of thought is rewarded.
I want playable art that will make Roger Ebert come back from the dead and say "I stand corrected; games exist as a medium of art".
Also, speaking of Diablo... *That* used to have half-decent lore once upon a time. Then whats-his-name's spice-melange supply dried up, or whatever, and I find that after the Diablo 3 fiasco (and I mean just the story here)... I'm no longer buying Blizzard games anymore.
Seriously, the new Diablo 3 expansion is the first Blizzard game I didn't buy on release (and don't intend to buy in the future). And I never played multiplayer; I only played each game once; never finished even "Nightmare" difficulty or whatever; but it was decent story telling always (with excellent cinematics) and I considered my $50 well spent for that.
Pfafh! Not anymore, apparently. My faith is shaken.
Give a me a good story where I am the Hero! And good game play where my investment of thought is rewarded.
I want playable art that will make Roger Ebert come back from the dead and say "I stand corrected; games exist as a medium of art".
Oh and "azure red cobalt amethyst eyes" Lol. My afternoon just got better.
****
Beamdog NPCs
Hexxat
Yeah -- I've already said that I wasn't happy with Hexxat; mostly because the options after Clara's death were: 1. Killing an innocent girl is sexxy -- wanna hang out? or 2. U R DUM -- the vampire just won.
But the writing was more meh than bad: she has a history -- that she doesn't want to talk about. Great. Yawn. Time for a new game. But I liked the quests. I've been hoping for Clara DLC so we can have the quests and avoid the meh. But I think BD is ignoring those requests.
Some people like her so I think it's a cup of tea thing. My guess is the people who like her are imagining dialogues we aren't.
Dorn
BG1 Dorn was a character that I didn't like but I thought he was well written. I didn't like him because he seemed like he belonged in Greyhawk or Monte Cooke module and not in the heroic world of Faerun. Still, he seemed like a well fleshed out video game character -- half orc betrayed by his lover seeks power and revenge. BG2 Dorn -- I don't play evil parties and Dorn's first quest was so over the top that I couldn't even include him my neutral party. So, that's a problem.
Rasaad Decent writing, fun quests but I never liked monks. But BD made it easy to do his quest and then have him the leave the party.
Neera Good quests, brings the funny. Probably my 3rd or 4th favorite character.
Bioware NPCs
Cernd Cernd is as interesting as a pair of dockers and as useful as a hammer made of cucumbers.
Haer Dalis has some good lines but a 45 hp front liner that can't hit anything? Really? Bioware had to give him the rod of resurrection because he died all the time. Good dialogues, terrible kit.
Anomen Where do I start? Fine, if I am annoyed the author has succeeded in getting me to react. But, guess what, I'm not interested in being annoyed by a video game. Worst idea since Zork III's 'test of patience'
Jan Jansen BEST NPC EVER
So BD has some good NPCs and some bad ones -- as did Bioware. The problem is Bioware had 16 NPCs so it didn't matter that I didn't like 3 of them. Beamdog has 4 NPCs (and one that bearly counts) so it is a problem you don't like 2 or 3 of them.
TL;DR -- 1. Doesn't like does not equal badly written 2. BW also had some 'bad' NPCs 3. Beamdog would have more support and more money if they wrote more characters.
But I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. They can hire talented writers; but also vision is needed for compelling campaign design.
I disagree. I like writers like George Martin who use sophisticated techniques like the unreliable narrator, I like reading Tolkien, an author who understood the layers of meaning in every word he put on paper and I like me some jokes about turnips.
This is D&D and you grade accordingly -- Neera was lots of fun and she reminded me of a high school friend; while I don't really care for monks I found the liked the lines of the protagonist in Raasad's quest. mmm mmm twofold truth! The writing has been as good as any D&D writing I've read.
For me the three things BD has going for it are: 1. The quality of the writing 2. The "give the money to the programer's" mentality and 3. It's BG.
What I really want are infinity engine modules. Adventure Y, Adventure Z and then start again with Adventure A.
Then all i can say is that none of the NPC cast in BG2 should be in a D&D game. Because if you grade Hexxat, Rasaad and Dorn high on the scale of D&D, the original cast would not belong in that same category.
Haer'Dalis Jan Jansen Anomen
Even CERND is better written than any of the beamdog characters.
I know this has been posted many times already, but let me remind you.
LESBIAN - VAMPIRE - THAT - YOU - CAN - ROMANCE.
It's like a bad NPC mod. The only thing missing for her was dying out of heart ache ALA Saerlith.
Wait, i apologize, that was badly written of me, should give her more credit than that. She would most probably go out in the sun and throw us an emotional stare with her amazing azure red cobalt amethyst eyes before turning into dust like in a bad blade movie.
I apologize for my strong opinion, but that's just an insult to the original cast. And there is no better game written out there than Planescape Torment.
Sure but BG2 had lots of examples of bad writing when it came to the original characters.
Minsc has certainly some memorable lines but from a writing standpoint he lacks depth.
Nalia is meh. She's fine but lacks depth. Its not until ToB when she really distinguishes herself (especially when it comes to her interactions with other party members). Plus her personal quest (D'Arnise's keep) never explains who hired Torgal or who charmed Glaicas. Neither of which she seems particularly interested in investigating. Despite the fact that Torgal being there resulted in the death of her father.
Imoen says almost nothing in all of SoA. The only time she basically says anything in SoA is during specific main plot related events. She is basically reduced to a plot device. Why bioware couldn't have simply come up with another Bhaalspawn you could have encountered in Irenicus's dungeon, rather than making Imoen one (who really could have seen exceptional character development in SoA had they not resorted to using her they way they did) I'll never know. Either way I really don't see how you can say her writing is any better than Overhauls. Especially given that she says almost nothing in the first game as well (even by BG1 standards). At least Wilson has a good excuse for why he doesn't converse much (an almost total inability to do so).
Even Cernd's writing isn't any better than Beamdogs. He will tear out the eyes of the person who let his former spouse die and who holds his kid, but then decides to stick it out with you rather than look after the child he fought so passionately for. Even if you have someone like Jaheira in your group who can could also be left to guide you in the ways of maintaining the balance. Also does he even bring up his kid to charname once while in ToB? I don't believe so.
Also since apparently Hexxat being a lesbian vampire is an example of bad writing, I'd say that Cernd being a shapeshifter but this not being brought up at all in either SoA and ToB is an example of even worse writing.
Hmm, I have to respectfully disagree that this thread is swaying off topic. I don't see how discussing comparisons of the quality—or lack thereof—writing of npcs, Hexxat included, does not merit consideration in regards to whether or not BG3 should exist.
Furthermore, you as a moderator I'd expect to use adjectives other than whine to describe a mode of dialogue. This is my objective observation of this statement, as I have not even partaken in the discussion. Just my respectful and humble opinion.
Comments
@Silverstar: dear Raccoon friend of mine and of this forum, you're absolutely right, and generally I try to avoid certain kind of acronyms, preferring the good ol' words than the
Ahm.... no, it isn't, so...
But good ideas, @NaturalBornKieler , anyway.
BTW, it seems a new discussion about this subject is opened from time to time:
August 2012 http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2708/the-redundancy-of-baldur-s-gate-3/p1
September 2013 http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/20919/bg3/p1
October 2013 http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22749/do-you-want-bg3-to-use-the-new-5th-edition-rules/p1
November 2013 http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/23436/beamdog-shouldn-t-make-bg3-they-should-crowd-fund-their-own-game/p1
December 2013 http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/26600/bg3-or-ps-torment-and-or-iwdale-series-remake/p1
February 2014 http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/29917/what-s-the-news-on-baldur-s-gate-3/p1
And so on...
There're 2 opposite opinions in every discussion as should BG3 be made or not at all and should Beamdog in particular make it or not.
So, it's never excessive to give an opinion on this subject. Only by arguing we can discover the truth.
@Silverstar: dear Raccoon friend of mine and of this forum, you're absolutely right, and generally I try to avoid certain kind of acronyms, preferring the good ol' words than the internet vocabulary... but really... nothing in this case was stronger than "LoL". ;P
@Silverstar: dear Raccoon friend of mine and of this forum, you're absolutely right, and generally I try to avoid certain kind of acronyms, preferring the good ol' words than the internet vocabulary... but really... nothing in this case was stronger than "LoL" ;P
What is this sorcery?
P.S.: I liked the new cinematics much more than the old ones. Semi-static artwork cinematic is a trend some other games took and used well. Like Guild Wars 2 for example.
P.P.S : Maybe I should have used the unpopular opinion animal meme...
But I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
They can hire talented writers; but also vision is needed for compelling campaign design.
Although, I do admit to actually really enjoying the Eye of the Beholder series. I just don't think that justice could be done with the real time 'Shooter' style action games that are out today. Personal opinion.
This is D&D and you grade accordingly -- Neera was lots of fun and she reminded me of a high school friend; while I don't really care for monks I found the liked the lines of the protagonist in Raasad's quest. mmm mmm twofold truth! The writing has been as good as any D&D writing I've read.
For me the three things BD has going for it are: 1. The quality of the writing 2. The "give the money to the programer's" mentality and 3. It's BG.
What I really want are infinity engine modules. Adventure Y, Adventure Z and then start again with Adventure A.
Fine. But *depth* was missing from the new content in many occasions.
Surely they can afford a little more depth than what we have seen so far.
(Perhaps, I am unfairly biased because of the existence of Torment. If Torment was possible once, its quality surely should be reproducible again today...)
https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/
One hopes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numenera
It's the spiritual successor to Planescape:Torment. Many of the minds that made or helped create the Planescape setting are in (Colin McComb, Monte Cook), as well as Chris Avellone, the Lead Designer of Planescape Torment.
It also surpassed Project Eternity in Kickstarter funds.
So it will really have the soul of Planescape Torment. It's not just a "Torment" game in name only.
And for those that missed the fund-raising at Kickstarter, you can still fund the game and get the goods from the official site.
https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/store
Haer'Dalis
Jan Jansen
Anomen
Even CERND is better written than any of the beamdog characters.
I know this has been posted many times already, but let me remind you.
LESBIAN - VAMPIRE - THAT - YOU - CAN - ROMANCE.
It's like a bad NPC mod. The only thing missing for her was dying out of heart ache ALA Saerlith.
Wait, i apologize, that was badly written of me, should give her more credit than that. She would most probably go out in the sun and throw us an emotional stare with her amazing azure red cobalt amethyst eyes before turning into dust like in a bad blade movie.
I apologize for my strong opinion, but that's just an insult to the original cast. And there is no better game written out there than Planescape Torment.
Is that bad writting or you just don't new NPCs? There is fundamental difference between bad writing and not liking/hating something.
And, personally I think you don't have to apologize for "strong opinion". At least it shows that you have some guts.
Is it bad writing in BALDUR'S GATE? Yes!
It would probably have done fine in a game like Dungeon Siege or Diablo. It does not belong in Baldur's Gate.
And i do not wish to offend anyone, especially not the people at Beamdog. They have done a great job when it comes to BGEE and I've given up on BGT and play BGEE full time now. But i'm not doing that because of the additional NPC's, I try to avoid them.
Rasaad is somewhat fine, and the whole Idea of a monk NPC is really good!
Dorn is too much for me, he just seems stupid in my opinion. Killing one or two people are fine, the mass slaughter does not belong in my evil teams.
Neera is a fun enough characters. But you should be able to look at her for what she is, a teenage romance with a little comic relief on the side. She is in no way a serious character.
Hexxat is just.. I can't even explain how bad she is.
If there's any elitism going on, it isn't on this end of the equation.
*That* used to have half-decent lore once upon a time. Then whats-his-name's spice-melange supply dried up, or whatever, and I find that after the Diablo 3 fiasco (and I mean just the story here)... I'm no longer buying Blizzard games anymore.
Seriously, the new Diablo 3 expansion is the first Blizzard game I didn't buy on release (and don't intend to buy in the future). And I never played multiplayer; never finished even "Nightmare" difficulty or whatever; but it was decent story telling always (with excellent cinematics) and I considered my $50 well spent for that.
Pfafh! Not anymore, apparently. My faith is shaken.
Give a me a good story where I am the Hero!
And good game play where my investment of thought is rewarded.
I want playable art that will make Roger Ebert come back from the dead and say "I stand corrected; games exist as a medium of art".
"What can change the nature of a venerable film critic?"
(I'm a big fan of his writing actually.)
Oh and "azure red cobalt amethyst eyes" Lol. My afternoon just got better.
****
Beamdog NPCs
Hexxat
Yeah -- I've already said that I wasn't happy with Hexxat; mostly because the options after Clara's death were: 1. Killing an innocent girl is sexxy -- wanna hang out? or 2. U R DUM -- the vampire just won.
But the writing was more meh than bad: she has a history -- that she doesn't want to talk about. Great. Yawn. Time for a new game. But I liked the quests. I've been hoping for Clara DLC so we can have the quests and avoid the meh. But I think BD is ignoring those requests.
Some people like her so I think it's a cup of tea thing. My guess is the people who like her are imagining dialogues we aren't.
Dorn
BG1 Dorn was a character that I didn't like but I thought he was well written. I didn't like him because he seemed like he belonged in Greyhawk or Monte Cooke module and not in the heroic world of Faerun. Still, he seemed like a well fleshed out video game character -- half orc betrayed by his lover seeks power and revenge. BG2 Dorn -- I don't play evil parties and Dorn's first quest was so over the top that I couldn't even include him my neutral party. So, that's a problem.
Rasaad Decent writing, fun quests but I never liked monks. But BD made it easy to do his quest and then have him the leave the party.
Neera Good quests, brings the funny. Probably my 3rd or 4th favorite character.
Bioware NPCs
Cernd Cernd is as interesting as a pair of dockers and as useful as a hammer made of cucumbers.
Haer Dalis has some good lines but a 45 hp front liner that can't hit anything? Really? Bioware had to give him the rod of resurrection because he died all the time. Good dialogues, terrible kit.
Anomen Where do I start? Fine, if I am annoyed the author has succeeded in getting me to react. But, guess what, I'm not interested in being annoyed by a video game. Worst idea since Zork III's 'test of patience'
Jan Jansen BEST NPC EVER
So BD has some good NPCs and some bad ones -- as did Bioware. The problem is Bioware had 16 NPCs so it didn't matter that I didn't like 3 of them. Beamdog has 4 NPCs (and one that bearly counts) so it is a problem you don't like 2 or 3 of them.
TL;DR -- 1. Doesn't like does not equal badly written 2. BW also had some 'bad' NPCs 3. Beamdog would have more support and more money if they wrote more characters.
Minsc has certainly some memorable lines but from a writing standpoint he lacks depth.
Nalia is meh. She's fine but lacks depth. Its not until ToB when she really distinguishes herself (especially when it comes to her interactions with other party members). Plus her personal quest (D'Arnise's keep) never explains who hired Torgal or who charmed Glaicas. Neither of which she seems particularly interested in investigating. Despite the fact that Torgal being there resulted in the death of her father.
Imoen says almost nothing in all of SoA. The only time she basically says anything in SoA is during specific main plot related events. She is basically reduced to a plot device. Why bioware couldn't have simply come up with another Bhaalspawn you could have encountered in Irenicus's dungeon, rather than making Imoen one (who really could have seen exceptional character development in SoA had they not resorted to using her they way they did) I'll never know. Either way I really don't see how you can say her writing is any better than Overhauls. Especially given that she says almost nothing in the first game as well (even by BG1 standards). At least Wilson has a good excuse for why he doesn't converse much (an almost total inability to do so).
Even Cernd's writing isn't any better than Beamdogs. He will tear out the eyes of the person who let his former spouse die and who holds his kid, but then decides to stick it out with you rather than look after the child he fought so passionately for. Even if you have someone like Jaheira in your group who can could also be left to guide you in the ways of maintaining the balance. Also does he even bring up his kid to charname once while in ToB? I don't believe so.
Also since apparently Hexxat being a lesbian vampire is an example of bad writing, I'd say that Cernd being a shapeshifter but this not being brought up at all in either SoA and ToB is an example of even worse writing.
Thanks.
- Metalloman -
Furthermore, you as a moderator I'd expect to use adjectives other than whine to describe a mode of dialogue. This is my objective observation of this statement, as I have not even partaken in the discussion. Just my respectful and humble opinion.