I'd even take Bethesda remaking it in an Elder Scrolls interface with a D&D character sheet over waiting several years for something so simple that they could complete it in 2.
Just needed to comment on that. Just looking at Fallout 2 and Fallout 3.
Baldur's Gate 3 will be an action/first person RPG, with leveled enemies and quests, lack of interesting NPCs and no party combat. It will also be multi-platform, with emphasis on consoles first and buggy as hell on release. Also enemies explode easily. Use left click for melee and right click to spam fireballs and magic missiles.
Firkraag? You can take him on level 1 since he's scaled. Carsormyr? Meh, I found a +6 longsword on some bandits, who needs Carsormyr?
Sounds great huh?
Fallout 3 might have been completely different, but it was still a good game, just saying.
Fallout 3 might have been completely different, but it was still a good game, just saying.
Good game? Maybe. Good RPG and good Fallout? Nope. New Vegas was much more of an RPG and had the Fallout feel than F3.
Also great idea turning a turn-based RPG into an FPS Bethesda.
Fallout 3 was an amazing game in itself. It wasn't Fallout 1 nor 2, but it was a good game in it's own right. Yes it was a FPS/RPG hybrid but it was entertaining and fun to play. And we hadn't seen a world like that before in any game, it was incredible with a ton of hidden items and something special around each corner.
I feel that new vegas had a much better system when it came to gameplay and RP. But Fallout 3 had a much better world.
I will not buy any Baldur's Gate type of game in 3D. It could be the best game in the entire world and i would still not buy it.
Neverwinter nights was a good game, but had they avoided the whole 3D part of it, it would have been better.
No, no, I get that. I feel the same way actually. But X-Com, for example, was a *2D* game with a 3D engine underneath.
NWN & NWN2 were indeed abysmal, with camera controls being total torture in both cases. A full 3D perspective is not advantage for a tactical RPG. But a clean & optimized engine using 3D environments and models from a top-down view would be great for a modern RPG.
NWN & NWN2 were indeed abysmal, with camera controls being total torture in both cases.
They use the same engine as SW:KotOR:tSL, and, dude, I LOVED that game, even if it was bad... But I gotta say the camera wasn't the worst, but level enemies... Let's better change the topic...
I sort of get the impression that customizing an existing engine wouldn't be too much more work than tinkering with the Infinity Engine anyways, with the added benefit that the new engine would likely be more stable, flexible and robust.
That gets to heart of the matter. I'm skeptical -- programmers tend to think that a new engine will end their frustrations but, more often than not, the programmers find that the new engine comes with new frustrations. Take the NWN engine which was going to be better than infinity for X,Y,Z reasons . . . the console / PC engine that came with Pool of Radiance and so on. There are plenty of engines that tried to replace / surpass infinity and did not succeed. More often than not mature engines are less buggy than new ones.
To belabor the point -- one might suspect that it would be easy to modify to 'enternity' engine to accept D&D rules but the experience with the temple of elemental evil suggests otherwise. Not a bad engine really but the mods took *much*, *much* longer than the devs expected and the final product had some very annoying bugs.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong but I think a switch to new engine at the current rate of development would mean waiting 4 years or so for a BG 3 beta. Truly.
TL;DR -- there are good reasons to keep the infinity engine; a bird in hand is better than two in the bush.
Well, I thought one of the main goals of the NWN engine was to provide a powerful engine/set of tools for users to create their own content, and I believe they succeeded in that. By all accounts there is a huge amount of user-created content for NWN. Basically, modding happened because of the engine, whereas with BG it happened despite the engine. And I think it speaks well to that engine's flexibility that the first Witcher game uses it, despite being very different than NWN.
Also (and I admit this is just speculation), is there maybe some difference when dealing with an engine that was designed from the ground up to be flexible and be used for a variety of games? So if the Infinity Engine was designed with one platform and (primarily) one game in mind, it would make sense that it would be harder to modify it for different platforms and games. But engines like Unity are created to be multi-platform, and I imagine they try to be as flexible and robust as possible to allow for Unity's use in as many situations as possible (as that would make Unity's creators the most money). Again, this is just speculation on my part, as I'm a layman when it comes to video game/software development.
Most of the newer generation of gamers would look down upon BG's graphics, don't you think?
Most of the newer generation gamers wouldn't be interested in BG no matter what you did with the graphics. It is a game that we all love, but it is a niche market at best. If you want to pitch an updated engine, you have to propose something that will justify the expense.
Take a look at the recent release of X-com. Look at what they had to do to the game to justify a new engine and a graphics face lift. Do you (and I liked the new game, but it was NOT the original) want them to do that to BG? Because that is what they would have to do to widen the market enough to make a new engine financially worth while.
Take a look at the recent release of X-com. Look at what they had to do to the game to justify a new engine and a graphics face lift. Do you (and I liked the new game, but it was NOT the original) want them to do that to BG?
Actually, X-Com again is the perfect example, and the answers is "YES" - I would like a redo of a BG style game in the manner of X-Com.
- "old style" gameplay? check - not a graphics-wh@re at the expense of good game play? check - stable, multi-platform title? check
... and the singularly most important aspect for me: - ***BALANCE! - designed to be played as a NO-RELOAD game at a hard core difficulty -- double check!!***
I played X-Com the original upon release, and I tell you I wish many other old games would have such decent modern translation.
(Still waiting on a new "Master of Magic", for example. New titles pale in comparison to what our imaginations recall of the old.)
We might just disagree on the quality of NWN. You are right to say that it was successful at getting people to contribute but do you think was a much fun to play as an infinity engine game? If so, great -- butI'd rate NWN as a 'fair' game. I think I replayed the main quest 3 times and downloaded three or modules and then got bored with it. Certainly got my money's worth but I never bought NWN 2.
To my mind NWN sacrificed: graphics quality, gameplay quality and speed (on low end machines) for ease of modification and multi player compatibility. So, yes, with NWN mods occurred because of the engine. But I would say that with BG mods occurred because of the quality of the game.
At this point I'm hoping that Adventure Z will be another infinity engine expansion.
I played X-Com the original upon release, and I tell you I wish many other old games would have such decent modern translation.
I liked the most recent X-Com game. However, it was significantly simplified to such a degree that it did not feel "to me" like X-Com. Merely another Squad based 'Fight aliens' game.
I'd compare the X-com update analogous to Baldur's gate Dark Alliance.
We might just disagree on the quality of NWN. You are right to say that it was successful at getting people to contribute but do you think was a much fun to play as an infinity engine game? If so, great -- butI'd rate NWN as a 'fair' game. I think I replayed the main quest 3 times and downloaded three or modules and then got bored with it. Certainly got my money's worth but I never bought NWN 2.
To my mind NWN sacrificed: graphics quality, gameplay quality and speed (on low end machines) for ease of modification and multi player compatibility. So, yes, with NWN mods occurred because of the engine. But I would say that with BG mods occurred because of the quality of the game.
At this point I'm hoping that Adventure Z will be another infinity engine expansion.
Err, I never said anything about the quality of NWN. I was talking about the engine that NWN is based on. What I am trying to say is that, despite the fact that you seem to view that engine as a failure, I believe that it was a success and accomplished what its designers intended it to do. I don't think the fact that NWN wasn't an amazing game changes any of that.
@killerrabbit Different games for different purposes. There's no point comparing BG to NwN1.
BG focused ONLY on the campaigns. Modding was an extra, multiplayer was the bare minimum and there was no toolset.
NwN1 gave you a toolset, online capabilities, DM client and various campaigns and ability to play other people's modules. The original campaign was the extra, not the main course.
So yes, comparisons between the two are meaningless to put it politely. It's comparing apples and oranges. The argument "the NwN1 campaign sucked so it's a worse game" is as valid as saying "Baldur's Gate has no toolset, so it sucks".
I don't think we disagree on much. Yes, NWN had good toolset and yes the two games are different. I bring it up because this discussion reminds me a bit of the discussion on the Bioware forums regarding the aurora engine and the decision to retire the infinity engine after ToB. As I remember devs on that forum (not you!) were arguing:
The new 3d engine would be superior to the 2d engine because:
1. Its efficient use of processing power -- graphics were handled by the graphics card and not the main processor
2. It allowed for more efficient use of art resources -- it was easier to make 3D models than it was 2d models
3. Done correctly, 3D looks as good as 2D -- in fact much of the art in the infinity games was really 3d art in 2D environment (don't ask me what this second point means but it was said often)
4. The open standard 3D drivers were much easier to work with than were the various 2D drivers
5. Reviewers liked 3d -- no 2d game could hope to get positive review
6. The young folk prefer 3d.
And yet, years later, Beamdog chose to revive the old 2d game and I've yet to see a 3d game that compares to it.
So I bring it up because I have see other companies go for the bone held by the dog in the reflecting pool when they would have done better to have kept a grip on the bone already held in their mouth.
Oh, and, I liked the NWN main campaign story and I laughed at an adventure by someone named Stephen Gagne (sp?) -- so, the engine wasn't bad just not as good as infinity.
As long as they don't add any content to it. Just new graphic and better gameplay. And this has nothing to do with Beamdog, i wouldn't trust any company to make content for torment.
As long as they don't add any content to it. Just new graphic and better gameplay. And this has nothing to do with Beamdog, i wouldn't trust any company to make content for torment.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Btw, I agree about the extreme difficulty on making new content that could fit well and seamlessly with the original content, but if only it could be possible to create new content with such a quality I would be happy for sure.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Actually, yeah. Don't touch Torment. It would be very difficult to improve it; and I somehow doubt Beamdog is up to that to challenge.
You know what would be really good to remake (or improve on)?
Temple of Elemental Evil
The singular best tactical RPG engine. ... alas, one of the worst and most buggy executions. (along with lackluster campaign)
I wish someone would redo a full D&D campaign in a ToEE like turn-based engine.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Actually, yeah. Don't touch Torment. It would be very difficult to improve it; and I somehow doubt Beamdog is up to that to challenge.
All unite for a crash free PS:T!!
Really... That game holds the highest rate of save corruptions and crashes of the games I played, even more than BG2:SoA.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Actually, yeah. Don't touch Torment. It would be very difficult to improve it; and I somehow doubt Beamdog is up to that to challenge.
All unite for a crash free PS:T!!
Really... That game holds the highest rate of save corruptions and crashes of the games I played, even more than BG2:SoA.
I am guessing that you never played the Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Dranor game.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Actually, yeah. Don't touch Torment. It would be very difficult to improve it; and I somehow doubt Beamdog is up to that to challenge.
All unite for a crash free PS:T!!
Really... That game holds the highest rate of save corruptions and crashes of the games I played, even more than BG2:SoA.
I've played through it many times and while it has crashed i haven't had a single corrupt save. After modding it i haven't had a crash as of yet, and I've been 80+ hours in it so far with mods.
I might just be lucky? But Torment has never ran badly for me with the exception of the mouse warrens.
I had not a single crash in all my PS:T playing history too, but @SionIV, What would you change on PS:T graphics and gameplay? (I asked you this some post above)
I had not a single crash in all my PS:T playing history too, but @SionIV, What would you change on PS:T graphics and gameplay? (I asked you this some post above)
There is a graphics mod that i'm using for Torment that makes it look better and you can run it in higher resolution, just adding this to the default game would be great. There are also other mods out there that make it a much more enjoyable experience, less bugs, lagg and stuff like that.
The gameplay would require a small overhaul when it comes to the Wizard and spells in general, it's rather tame the combat in Torment right now and i'm sure there could be done something there.
They also mentioned a Cleric class that never got released in the original game, that could be something to add to the game?
I feel that Torment is an amazing game and the only improvements that it could have is a bit on the graphic side and then the gameplay.
There is a graphics mod that i'm using for Torment that makes it look better and you can run it in higher resolution, just adding this to the default game would be great. There are also other mods out there that make it a much more enjoyable experience, less bugs, lagg and stuff like that.
Oh, yeah, for that I agree with you, in fact (and I shamelessly quote myself) I've mentioned these while asking you the first time, excluding HI-RES mod because I thought you meant some other kind of graphic improvement/enhancement.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Btw, I agree about the extreme difficulty on making new content that could fit well and seamlessly with the original content, but if only it could be possible to create new content with such a quality I would be happy for sure.
The gameplay would require a small overhaul when it comes to the Wizard and spells in general, it's rather tame the combat in Torment right now and i'm sure there could be done something there.
They also mentioned a Cleric class that never got released in the original game, that could be something to add to the game?
Yeah, I remember that. I would like it too, even if PS:T sorment seems to have volountarily avoided a strong religious impact and strong divine intervention on the whole (the main cause is the Lady of Pain but, well...) but, let's say it, I would really like a cleric class with the chance to choose on different deities (including the Lady of Pain, of course) and see how much could change the game experience, the approach of Nameless One to the planes and the possible interactions and changes to the NPCs and the whole society (really huge work, here)! O,O!
Sorry i didn't see your earlier post, but i agree with pretty much everything you've said. And in my opinion Torment doesn't need a remake, but if it got one it would have to focus on the gameplay and graphics/bug fixing instead of new content.
They also mentioned a Cleric class that never got released in the original game, that could be something to add to the game?
The official strategy guide (I know, I know) actually had what I thought was a good canon explanation to why the Nameless One can't be a cleric: all the gods around have abandoned him long ago. That makes sense to me.
Of course, on the Planes, you can be a cleric of a concept, so that doesn't hold together too well in theory. The Nameless One could be a cleric of the Athar's generic 'Power' that they believe lurks behind the Gods. Of course, that would mean adding the Athar in. But would people really say no to having more factions represented?
(IF they were written well. I'm unsure if Beamdog can write PS:T well enough for my taste, though there's some modders that added unfinished content to the game and were forced to write their own dialog- the teeth for Morte for example- that turned out pretty good).
I'd like the PS:T fix pack and the higher resolution graphic patches to be automatically included in the EE. I... suppose they could make another party member, as they'll probably be told by WotC to add more content to try and get sales instead of people going for the GoG edition, but I'm sort of leery on how well they could do there. I'm just wary on how well they would turn out. And it's not like they're going to be able to get the original voice actors to come back and voice the banter lines, so this new character would stand out (unless they pull a Dak'kon and just don't banter, anyway).
The AI could certainly use a bit of updating. I'm not talking SCS level (though I wouldn't hate that, considering there are already so few fights in game), but honestly, the AI for Torrent is pretty horrible. There's no real super difficult fights, and most fights you can talk out of or talk yourself an advantage to, anyway. I admit that in most of my Torment games I've gone wizard or rogue, but I can't ever remember needing to reload for combat reasons. Maybe fighter is more difficult, but I doubt it.
I'd personally like a PS:T:EE just to have it on mobile devices. Playing Baldur's Gate on my long train commute has been great! I'm also not a big fan of the interface of PS:T. That radial wheel thing is such a hastle to use (and would probably have to be totally removed to make it playable on a touch screen).
Comments
Also great idea turning a turn-based RPG into an FPS Bethesda.
I feel that new vegas had a much better system when it came to gameplay and RP. But Fallout 3 had a much better world.
NWN & NWN2 were indeed abysmal, with camera controls being total torture in both cases. A full 3D perspective is not advantage for a tactical RPG. But a clean & optimized engine using 3D environments and models from a top-down view would be great for a modern RPG.
Also (and I admit this is just speculation), is there maybe some difference when dealing with an engine that was designed from the ground up to be flexible and be used for a variety of games? So if the Infinity Engine was designed with one platform and (primarily) one game in mind, it would make sense that it would be harder to modify it for different platforms and games. But engines like Unity are created to be multi-platform, and I imagine they try to be as flexible and robust as possible to allow for Unity's use in as many situations as possible (as that would make Unity's creators the most money). Again, this is just speculation on my part, as I'm a layman when it comes to video game/software development.
Take a look at the recent release of X-com. Look at what they had to do to the game to justify a new engine and a graphics face lift. Do you (and I liked the new game, but it was NOT the original) want them to do that to BG? Because that is what they would have to do to widen the market enough to make a new engine financially worth while.
- "old style" gameplay? check
- not a graphics-wh@re at the expense of good game play? check
- stable, multi-platform title? check
... and the singularly most important aspect for me:
- ***BALANCE! - designed to be played as a NO-RELOAD game at a hard core difficulty -- double check!!***
I played X-Com the original upon release, and I tell you I wish many other old games would have such decent modern translation.
(Still waiting on a new "Master of Magic", for example. New titles pale in comparison to what our imaginations recall of the old.)
We might just disagree on the quality of NWN. You are right to say that it was successful at getting people to contribute but do you think was a much fun to play as an infinity engine game? If so, great -- butI'd rate NWN as a 'fair' game. I think I replayed the main quest 3 times and downloaded three or modules and then got bored with it. Certainly got my money's worth but I never bought NWN 2.
To my mind NWN sacrificed: graphics quality, gameplay quality and speed (on low end machines) for ease of modification and multi player compatibility. So, yes, with NWN mods occurred because of the engine. But I would say that with BG mods occurred because of the quality of the game.
At this point I'm hoping that Adventure Z will be another infinity engine expansion.
I'd compare the X-com update analogous to Baldur's gate Dark Alliance.
And yes, I do prefer BG over NWN.
BG focused ONLY on the campaigns. Modding was an extra, multiplayer was the bare minimum and there was no toolset.
NwN1 gave you a toolset, online capabilities, DM client and various campaigns and ability to play other people's modules.
The original campaign was the extra, not the main course.
So yes, comparisons between the two are meaningless to put it politely. It's comparing apples and oranges.
The argument "the NwN1 campaign sucked so it's a worse game" is as valid as saying "Baldur's Gate has no toolset, so it sucks".
I don't think we disagree on much. Yes, NWN had good toolset and yes the two games are different. I bring it up because this discussion reminds me a bit of the discussion on the Bioware forums regarding the aurora engine and the decision to retire the infinity engine after ToB. As I remember devs on that forum (not you!) were arguing:
The new 3d engine would be superior to the 2d engine because:
1. Its efficient use of processing power -- graphics were handled by the graphics card and not the main processor
2. It allowed for more efficient use of art resources -- it was easier to make 3D models than it was 2d models
3. Done correctly, 3D looks as good as 2D -- in fact much of the art in the infinity games was really 3d art in 2D environment (don't ask me what this second point means but it was said often)
4. The open standard 3D drivers were much easier to work with than were the various 2D drivers
5. Reviewers liked 3d -- no 2d game could hope to get positive review
6. The young folk prefer 3d.
And yet, years later, Beamdog chose to revive the old 2d game and I've yet to see a 3d game that compares to it.
So I bring it up because I have see other companies go for the bone held by the dog in the reflecting pool when they would have done better to have kept a grip on the bone already held in their mouth.
What's wrong with PS:T graphic and gameplay, for you? I enjoy both of them a lot, personally: right now nothing which could improve them is coming to my mind... (excluding optimizations for higher resolutions and for modern hardware, of course)
Btw, I agree about the extreme difficulty on making new content that could fit well and seamlessly with the original content, but if only it could be possible to create new content with such a quality I would be happy for sure.
You know what would be really good to remake (or improve on)?
Temple of Elemental Evil
The singular best tactical RPG engine. ... alas, one of the worst and most buggy executions. (along with lackluster campaign)
I wish someone would redo a full D&D campaign in a ToEE like turn-based engine.
Really...
That game holds the highest rate of save corruptions and crashes of the games I played, even more than BG2:SoA.
I might just be lucky? But Torment has never ran badly for me with the exception of the mouse warrens.
The gameplay would require a small overhaul when it comes to the Wizard and spells in general, it's rather tame the combat in Torment right now and i'm sure there could be done something there.
They also mentioned a Cleric class that never got released in the original game, that could be something to add to the game?
I feel that Torment is an amazing game and the only improvements that it could have is a bit on the graphic side and then the gameplay.
You got a point.
Yeah, I remember that. I would like it too, even if PS:T sorment seems to have volountarily avoided a strong religious impact and strong divine intervention on the whole (the main cause is the Lady of Pain but, well...) but, let's say it, I would really like a cleric class with the chance to choose on different deities (including the Lady of Pain, of course) and see how much could change the game experience, the approach of Nameless One to the planes and the possible interactions and changes to the NPCs and the whole society (really huge work, here)! O,O!
Sorry i didn't see your earlier post, but i agree with pretty much everything you've said. And in my opinion Torment doesn't need a remake, but if it got one it would have to focus on the gameplay and graphics/bug fixing instead of new content.
Of course, on the Planes, you can be a cleric of a concept, so that doesn't hold together too well in theory. The Nameless One could be a cleric of the Athar's generic 'Power' that they believe lurks behind the Gods. Of course, that would mean adding the Athar in. But would people really say no to having more factions represented?
(IF they were written well. I'm unsure if Beamdog can write PS:T well enough for my taste, though there's some modders that added unfinished content to the game and were forced to write their own dialog- the teeth for Morte for example- that turned out pretty good).
I'd like the PS:T fix pack and the higher resolution graphic patches to be automatically included in the EE. I... suppose they could make another party member, as they'll probably be told by WotC to add more content to try and get sales instead of people going for the GoG edition, but I'm sort of leery on how well they could do there. I'm just wary on how well they would turn out. And it's not like they're going to be able to get the original voice actors to come back and voice the banter lines, so this new character would stand out (unless they pull a Dak'kon and just don't banter, anyway).
The AI could certainly use a bit of updating. I'm not talking SCS level (though I wouldn't hate that, considering there are already so few fights in game), but honestly, the AI for Torrent is pretty horrible. There's no real super difficult fights, and most fights you can talk out of or talk yourself an advantage to, anyway. I admit that in most of my Torment games I've gone wizard or rogue, but I can't ever remember needing to reload for combat reasons. Maybe fighter is more difficult, but I doubt it.