Best defensive character class for a non-metagamed run through the entire trilogy?
Blackraven
Member Posts: 3,486
Hi everyone. @Ygramul's comment on a post of mine a few days back, that he only does SCS no-reload and non-metagamed playthroughs these days, which is generally my approach to the game as well, had me thinking:
Which solo character would be the strongest defensively throughout the trilogy? I'm saying solo character since in a full party even a commoner charname or a Loser @meagloth-style could make it.
Mind you that to me no-metagaming means no prebuffing (except for long lasting spells such as Armor, Stoneskin, Iron Skins) unless enemies have been properly scouted. This is might rule out Sorcerers as the best defensive characters I think, if we take into account into account traps and ambushes (even though ambushes might be scouted with invisibility). To those who insist that Sorcerer would be the way to go, I'd ask what character they'd consider second best, as I don't really want to play a Sorcerer.
If editing a kit into a multiclass is allowed, I'm inclined to go for Dwarven (or Halfling) Warrior/Priest, where the fighter class could be e.g. Dwarven Defender, Berserker, or Barbarian. You'll have great hitpoints and saves, and depending on the warrior class good defenses against status effects or damage resistances.
I was thinking of the Barbarian/Druid I rolled a while back, and realized that an evil Barbarian/Cleric with Human Flesh, Cloak of Balduran (which returns in my game in BG2), and other MR raising items, and the physical resistances of the Barrbarian, Hardiness HLA and Defender of Easthaven could be very difficult to kill.
Looking forward to your views.
Which solo character would be the strongest defensively throughout the trilogy? I'm saying solo character since in a full party even a commoner charname or a Loser @meagloth-style could make it.
Mind you that to me no-metagaming means no prebuffing (except for long lasting spells such as Armor, Stoneskin, Iron Skins) unless enemies have been properly scouted. This is might rule out Sorcerers as the best defensive characters I think, if we take into account into account traps and ambushes (even though ambushes might be scouted with invisibility). To those who insist that Sorcerer would be the way to go, I'd ask what character they'd consider second best, as I don't really want to play a Sorcerer.
If editing a kit into a multiclass is allowed, I'm inclined to go for Dwarven (or Halfling) Warrior/Priest, where the fighter class could be e.g. Dwarven Defender, Berserker, or Barbarian. You'll have great hitpoints and saves, and depending on the warrior class good defenses against status effects or damage resistances.
I was thinking of the Barbarian/Druid I rolled a while back, and realized that an evil Barbarian/Cleric with Human Flesh, Cloak of Balduran (which returns in my game in BG2), and other MR raising items, and the physical resistances of the Barrbarian, Hardiness HLA and Defender of Easthaven could be very difficult to kill.
Looking forward to your views.
7
Comments
For BG2 it would probably be the same character dual classed to a cleric or mage at level 9 if he can survive until he regains the berserker levels back.
For BGEE you can get the following :
-10 to -15 AC
100% Fire resistance
70% Lightning resistance (can get 100% with potions or scrolls)
Immune to all spells that make you lose control.
Can use all potions.
Rage + High Mastery is very high damage
Ring of Free Action makes you immune to hold spells from ghouls and such.
Without any knowledge of the game you'll fall with your F/M to a stun/hold/fear spell sooner or later. The Berserker is completely immune to all of this.
FMC or FMT.
Along with contingencies and sequencers, a solo mage multi-class (especially with cleric levels to boot) will be the sturdiest build.
EEkeepering your fighter kit to be Dwarven Defender is an unfair overkill, in my opinion.
Also, "sturdy" must imply mage levels: the singular greatest threat in SCS are mages. You need mage levels to deal with them. (Or you need superb resource management with the few scrolls and potions you get.)
Just Spell Immunity:Abjuration alone (if it were a 5-times-a-day class skill) would have rendered Mage a worthy multi-class branch, let alone Stone Skin, Improv Inv, Ruby Ray, etc.
We already know that an arcane caster is the most powerful if you know the game. But if you have no knowledge of the game/encounters or spells it isn't that powerful anymore.
how about a Dwarven Defender/Mage lol
In BG2 it would be surviving until they can get Carsomyr and playing it safe.
If you keep changing your sequencers to fit every single memorized encounter that would be metagaming. If, instead, you kept a sequencer with, e.g., "Spell Shield / Fire Shield:Red / Teleport Field" against ambushes, that is just good planning which buys 3 rounds at the beginning of an unforeseen fight.
Luck favors the prepared.
SCS/no-reload *requires* such preparation.
SCS/no-reload does require preparation, but it only requires one wrong preparation and your game is over.
Improved Invisibility is not going to help you if they have true sight or can see through invisibility.
[Edited]: It's kind of hard to answer this question when we all do have meta game knowledge, none of us are new to the game and don't know where items are. We can try as much as we want to RP and ignore some items, but we'll still act on our knowledge sooner or later. Like you're not going to end up going to fight Silke early in SCS, this is because you know it'll end your game and kick your ass.
The no-reload no-meta game is more like an illusion than anything else, because we all have knowledge of where not to go so that we can survive longer.
There are many fights that we'll avoid at a certain time, because if we didn't do it, we would die and the game would be over.
Gnome f/i is pretty sturdy.
High HP and single-click immunities are not to be sniffed at...
One thing I noticed in roleplaying/no-metagaming my Diviner in vanilla is that in order to survive in a world full of ambushes and with a bounty on one's head: especially the smarter one is, the more strategic and super-cautious one must be. So just as we take notes as players on what enemies use against us, so would the characters in that gameworld. I think one of the fascinating RP angles is what sorts of things your character would actually be able to pick up on, or surmise, as to what the enemy is doing in the heat of battle. I would also try to imagine what the NPCs might be able to discern or guess at as well.
But it is for this reason that I doubt I will ever try non-metagamed run with SCS installed. It's just too unforgiving.
I'd say Cleric->Mage; I made a cleric solo run and didn't pre-buff until Sarevok (I kitted a lot in low levels, then I just use Sanctuary and then buff while Invisible, even if that is difficult with SCS). Or, you could try with a F/M/T and scout, or with a F/M/C and use Sanctuary/Invisibility to scout or buff.
Not sure how to take on BG2, probably Cleric->Mage won't work there (Demon Maze of Watcher's Keep came to mind, aTweaks Fiends + SCS' randomize Maze + no reload + no pre-buff = EoR (end of run). I died a lot of times this way in no-reloads (also for going to WK at low levels, but that's another thing).
Otherwise, knowing your install of BGT, I'd go Battleguard of Tempus->Mage, even if it is a little difficult to role-play, it will be easy for this challenge, and this will be as good as a Cleric->Mage but with a Berkserker's Rage. I think that a BoT->M will be able to handle the whole game without reloading nor meta-gaming. 'Zerker Rage is great, and IMO resting after using it (and getting tired) make complete RP sense.
BoT (or any other Cleric)-> Mage is very powerful, since Cleric's get an acceptable THAC0 at level 11 (I recommend to dual-class at level 11, since level 7 Priest spells aren't worth it, and you already have lots of Priest spells), they get good HP and as a BoT you can spend two proficiency points in the same weapon (I don't know about fighting styles).
BG1 isn't difficult as a Cleric solo, and if you still leveling up after hitting the XP cap, you'll reach level 11 by Chapter 5. Gaining the other levels as a Mage is easy, maybe you can then go to do some low level quests (or some quests in the City of Baldur's Gate, there are *many* FedEx quests there and they give decent to good XP) or kill the Basilisks (you could have been there before but escaped from them, so you're back with Protection from Petrification aka Gaze Reflection!!).
I think it makes sense to make a high INT/WIS character, so that some knowledge of the region, its inhabitants, and how to deal with them can be roleplayed, much like @Lemernis suggested.
@CrevsDaak, as I said in my opening post I don't consider prebuffing with long lasting spells such as Stoneskin metagaming. I was thinking more of casting Mirror Image or quaffing a Potion of Absorption in a dungeon to deal with trap damage. Or drinking a Potion of Magic Blocking and casting spells like Mirror Image, Haste, and other buffs/protections of short duration when you reach Davaeorn's lair but before you see him.
I still tend toward a multiclass Warrior (Berserker, Barbarian, or Dwarven Defender) / Priest, or a Warrior of one of the same kits / Thief (for better scouting).
It seems to me that Mages can scout with Invisibility, but are likely to be found out by enemy spellcasters with Detect Invisibility , True Sight etc, and they are more likely to die to traps due to lower hitpoints. Fighter/Mages are better of course, but nevertheless seem to rely more on metagame knowledge than say a Berserker/Cleric.
And unlike being only a caster with magical or clerical protections as a Berserker you can become immune nearly to everything without thinking about what spells are a natural choice for an adventurer and what spells are a meta knowledge.
Also, a Berserker will have a solid amount of HP to survive a big damage coming from one source, for e.g. the lighting bolt.
There's only one downside to a Berserker if we're talking about a real non-metagamed solo run. There're many traps in BG2 that can inflict a sudden end. One example is the Petrification trap on the bridge in the sewers under the Copper Coronet.
If you don't metagame than you will simply stand on it and it will be 50/50 if you are petrified or not. This trap is a sudden one, you won't have time to activate your Rage ability.
And there're many other traps that inflict a save or not potentially deadly effect. So, if you're talking about a non-metagamed solo run, you just need a thief part.
There're no deadly traps in BG1 if you don't go to the Durlag's Tower. But in BG2, you can't be without detecting traps.
So, I would choose a Berserker dualled into a Thief as soon as BG2 starts.
Berserker/Mage/Cleric : Nuff said, immune to everything.
Fighter/Mage/Shadowdancer : Most OP solo character I have ever played in my entire life, and I have played a lot.
Both should be Dwarves for the bonus to saves and Constitution which is great for defensive purpose.
Concerning the no prebuff question with some spells like Ironskin/Stoneskin/Armor etc, I think in all honestly that if your mage don't have them active at all times, your character is completly retarded a.k.a he has less than 6 Int or something, theses spells clearly scream "PREBUFF" and the entire point of them (long duration) is to put them before a fight.
I think roleplay wise, our characters should prebuff and scout a lot !
Imagine the situation a few moments : In the real world, we can't raise dead, we only live once. Do you think the militaries go in their enemies base without preparation ? "oh I'm going to run straight in them with my gun, it's going to be fun, I can reload anyway lol". No, they are covering themselves at all time, scouting and using tactics beyond our imagination.
The same thing apply to Baldur's Gate in my opinion, If I'm playing solo, Roleplay wise, if my character dies, he stays dead. And I don't think my character want to die, he is going to have every buffs possible on nearly everytime he is exploring a dangerous area. He is never going to go dungeon crawling without Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Spell Turning and Spell Deflection active, what if he triggers a trap or is ambushed by an assassin ? Will he say "Oh, I won't use use my 2 minutes lasting spells in this corridor, it's probably not going to cost me my life, YOLO" ?
And to those who will say "But you will need to rest every two fights !" I will answer "What do you think your character prefer ? Escaping a castle after thirty minutes of fighting with invisibility (with some XP and gold) or DYING FOREVER for being reckless ?"
My character would even unleash hell and every possible Project Image cheese on any minor fights simply because he is afraid of dying. Fear can be a powerful ally. And that, is what I consider roleplay. My character knows he can either rest more and fight less and survive, or die for being stupid, guess what he is going to choose !
The whole point with the M/T is that you can use invisibility for backstabs and don't have to focus that much on hide in shadow and move silent.
PS : For thieving skills, if you are playing solo, you still get twice as much XP in your Thief or Mage class than a single class Thief or Mage in a full party of 6. Plus, if you put a kit on a multi class character with EE:Keeper, you will keep your normal backstab progression, the 25 skills points per level and you will have one more spell per day because the game considers you as a specialist, so you will have far enough thieving skills and magic.
And the way you describe your character with the hiding, he gets nothing out of being a mage. So a F/Shadow Dancer would be better or just a pure class shadow dancer.
To me this is like the thread with making Jan a F/I/T. You're not getting a more powerful character just because you put several 'powerful' things into one big mix.
A F/M/Shadowdancer can perform 2 actions per round, one spell (most of the time instantly thanks to the Robe of Vecna) and one Hide in Shadow. The hiding makes you untargetable, making you nearly invincible and allow you to one hit kill or two hit kill everyone. But can still cast one Mirror Image / Breach / Stoneskin / Skulltrap etc instantly each round.
It's so powerful I think someone who never played SCS could nearly do it no-reload on the first try. You just need to know which enemies can detect invisibility passively (like Liches). And still, even if you got surprised, you could simply use Shadowstep (which acts like Timestop) to flee and come back later.
The fact is that the AI can't deal with them, even with SCS, because the AI will only react to invisibility with spells like Detect Invisivility and True Sight if you are actually invisible when the enemy mage is about to perform his special action of the round, but here the goal is to wait for the enemy to start casting something, then only to Hide in Shadow to nullify his spell, backstab someone to reappear, then you are visible again, so the enemy won't cast True Sight, he will start casting a regular spell again next round, and you will cancel it again with Hide in Shadow, again and again.
I agree with your Jan argument because Jan is an NPC, meaning he is in a party of at least 2 characters, but more often 4-6 which leads to less XP, plus he doesn't have good stats to be a fighter, and he wouldn't be a Shadowdancer in this example. He is designed to be used as a Mage, with the addition benefit of being able to fulfill the Thief role in a party.
Think more about a solo F/M/Shadowdancer as a F/M, but with more damage and invincible (and of course the additional benefits of being a Thief, which means more total XP with pick locks and disarm traps for example).
Multi-class: Fighter/Cleric Runner-Up: FMT, especially if you're an extremely trap conscious person.
Play a gnome illusionist/thief and you can probably deal with most stuff defensively. Between illusions and stoneskin and contingencies etc... Throw in some traps (and trap removal) and stealth/scouting.... preparation is the best defense in my view. And if you can't meta-game, you gotta scout.
Between Barbarian/Druid, Barbarian/Cleric, Berserker/Druid and Berserker/Cleric, which of these do you consider the sturdiest defensively?
I'm eager to play Barbarian and therefore probably biased, but I do think the Barbarian's superior hit points and damage resistance (very important in ToB in my memory) outweigh the Berserker's more encompassing Enrage ability. I couldn't tell whether Cleric > Druid o vice versa. Any ideas?
By the way @bengoshi's and @the_spyder's remarks on trap detection and scouting make me take a Thief combo into consideration. A carefull played Fighter/Thief would be great until deep into SoA, but would suffer when stealth and backstabs cease to be reliable tools no? They also might miss summons at one point I think, especially if solo'ing, although UAI allows for casting from scrolls.
Maybe a cautious, kitted F/M/T, perhaps as a Berserker or Barbarian, would be the safest bet. Shadowdancer sounds nice but perhaps less useful by late SoA and ToB.
Sampariy, the Halfling Barbarian/Druid, is a wonderful concept and taking into account this character's story will be told by you, it would certainly be entertaining and RP-ed. But judging from the survivability point of view, a Barbarian loses a little to the Berserker. Even in ToB, I think, the bonus immunities from the Berserk Rage are better than immunities from the Barbarian Rage+innate Barbarian immunities.
But still, a character with a thief part, from my point of view, is the only way to play a non-metagame solo playthrough. If the knowledge of where traps are is fully dispelled, the character through the course of all BG2 will one day trigger a trap with instant death effect he won't save against. Only if the character is searching for traps with his spell constantly, I.e. every meter of the dungeon, he won't die but I can hardly imagine the run when you sleep each time as soon as all your 2nd level spells are over.
Which thief type do you use:
FMT lets you cover all the bases fairly reliably, and you'll end up able to meta-game some due to proper scouting. It requires extremely diligent spread of your proficiency points however, although that's sorta meta-gamey, that might be the only exception I'd make with this character.
For flavor alone, I'd start with ++ in Bow and Longsword. I'd then go DW and Short sword (as I said, primarily flavor), which is going to take you midway through SoA to reach. Also elf would be tremendously useful here.
The alternative is prolly illusionist/thief, simply due to the extra spellcasting. But I think flavor wise, solo fits a tri-class better, and it'll give you a more survivable early game.
Also prolly start with Armor and Summon Familiar for RP and safety reasons.