The one thing I liked about the original game (pre-totsc) was that Sarevok had 285 hp vs the 135 he has in ToTsc/EE. Pre-totsc he also had 100% resistance to magic/fire/cold/electricity/acid as well as 10% physical damage resistances. In TOTSC they boosted his Thac0 by 4, increased his dexterity to 18 and reduced his saving throws all to 1, but in the process they gave him 0% magic resistance and 90% resistances to elemental damage. He does however get 50% missile damage resistances (but no other physical damage resistances). Considering that you could only beat the original Sarevok with characters that had no more than 89,000xp his stats were pretty awesome.
Edit: To correct myself. He was scripted to die at 135 health so there isn't effectively any health difference.
In my mind the dude with the bow was Kivan, the dwarf was Kagain, the guy in full armor and the shield was Ajantis, the guy with the spiked helmet was Khalid, the mage was Firebead Elevenhair who would obviously join my party at a later date and finally my PC was the guy in the cape (because all proper heroes wear capes). I was just wondering what happened to Imoen, Xzar, Monty and Jaheira, haha
I thought the guy with the cloak was my PC, too! I made a half-elf Fighter/Cleric for two reasons: to have a good reason to use hammers (I didn't know about the +2 warhammer!) in order to emulate that picture, and because I was obsessed with abilities that made weapons out of energy as a kid, and Clerics had the Flame Blade spell.
I spent money on both EE games, but I couldn't carry on after getting to Chapter 5 in BGEE. BG1 vanilla all the way. BG1 was not designed for the BG2 engine and the cracks show. Doesn't help that the new content sticks out in a jarring way, especially NPCs and writing. I'd have been cool if the engine was used but original game mechanics were preserved (e.g. Proficiencies), but EE changed it all. I guess as the minority, I have no say, hence I spend my money elsewhere lol
I belong to the tiny sliver, and I've already given EE a shot. If EE is the future, I can always play BG original, or move on to other games. If EE was required for sustained interest in BG, most players wouldn't have lasted the intervening 10 years between BG and EE. On hindsight, if it was the expectation of EE that kept interest alive, perhaps the product itself wasn't quite needed after all.
I play the original BG to this day, even though I have EE as well. The main thing that annoys me in EE is the BG2 engine. I've never liked it, the characters, the helmets, the spells look silly, almost cartoony. I tried many times giving it the benefit of the doubt, try to be immersed by it, but it just doesn't work for me. That's why I've only completed BG2 once. Similarly the art style doesn't feel right to me. I was hoping that there will be an updated version of Infinity Animations for EE that would enable using the old animations, but to this day there is a problem with dual wielding. Overall EE is nice, but not for me. BG1 stays the way it always was and I only use some minor mods (baldurdash fixes, max hp per level, etc.).
Can't remember the last time I played BG1 without Tutu or BGT. 2000 maybe? I used to prefer Tutu, but BGT is better at the moment. I have it running under Wineskin on my MacBook Pro and it works great. Still several modes (especially lvl1 NPC) that I don't want to do without. SCS, 1PP, Widescreen mod are most excellent.
Style of story-telling, which a lot of people don't seem to understand and I'll freely admit it annoys the crap out of me -- a lot of BG1's story-telling was done through details and exploration. BGII throws it in your face. Both are perfectly good ways of telling a story, but a lot of people don't seem to understand BG1's style and dismiss it as the plot and/or writing to be poor. When really, if you look around, there's a ton of references to things, hidden every where. Hell, I just found an amusing reference to Carbos and Shank yesterday that I had never seen before.
This is, to me, the biggest difference between the games. BG1 assumes you will talk to everybody you possibly can, all the time, in every area, including the odd peasant standing around town. There's a lot of material, story, and flavor buried in those dialogues. BG2 takes a more aggressive approach by having NPCs come right up to you and tell you what you need to know, when you need to know it.
My guess is that people skip talking to every NPC in BG1 on subsequent plays, and thus think the writing is "weaker." It really isn't. It's just in a different place.
Even though the EE is superior in many ways, the original still holds a special place in my heart, and I'm not even old. There are some things that you can't transfer in remasters. But, if they were able to give support for the original menu screen somehow I would be a lot happier. Even a mod would be good.
I think BG1 Vanilla FEELS like dnd to me. Does that make sense? It's hard to put into words a "feeling", but there it is. The rough-around-the-edges feel of vanilla BG1 fits perfectly into the story and the setting of the game. Nothing is given to you, or easy (no tabbing to see what you can interact with for example). Now we can debate all day what is considered an ease-of-use enhancement compared to challenge, that is certainly true, but for me BG1 vanilla will always be played over BGT, TuTu, or EE.
As others have mentioned, I also don't feel like BG2 kits or spells belong in BG1. The setting wasn't designed for it. Even so, I don't think a class SHOULD be able to start out as a kit anyway. It makes more sense to me, and fits into your humble beginnings, to start as a plain fighter, bard, paladin, etc, without the kit. Then, as your skills progress, you can specialize.
There is one MASSIVE thing going for BGT, TuTu, and EE however. That is SCS. SCS is a fantastic mod, and I love it. But even its glory can't win out BG1 Vanilla for me.
Lastly I wanted to end with a disclaimer. I LOVE that EE exists. It is only a good thing to re-introduce and re-vitalize the community for Baldur's Gate. Just look at this forum! Love it! If someone had never played BG before, I would likely recommend EE to them. But as someone who has played all versions of BG1 since the beginning, vanilla is the way to go.
As others have mentioned, I also don't feel like BG2 kits or spells belong in BG1. The setting wasn't designed for it. Even so, I don't think a class SHOULD be able to start out as a kit anyway. It makes more sense to me, and fits into your humble beginnings, to start as a plain fighter, bard, paladin, etc, without the kit. Then, as your skills progress, you can specialize.
To have an idea of the strain of some of the kits have on the storyline, you start out as a L1 character in Baldur's Gate with zero XP. Consider these examples:
1. Paladin/Cleric kits - Candlekeep is a seat of Oghma's power, and it is unlikely that evil gods will make aggressive inroads there since Oghma is a Greater Power himself, and good and neutral gods generally do not try to antagonize others. Ulraunt does not seem like the sort who would allow other faiths setting up shop in his keep. Candlekeep does not even have a big permanent population (divine power is tied to number of worshippers) and you have deities who want to set up shop in a thinly-populated stronghold of another powerful deity who is not even a major enemy?
2. Thief kits - A fresh character of zero XP acquires, without prior training and experience, kit-specific abilities like poisoning weapons, setting special traps, and oh, the protagonist is a teen who hunts and/or murders people too. Wow. Who does he take orders from anyway? And is he really that good to escape the entire keep's attention on his illegal actions?
There are some kits that can make sense:
a. All bard kits - Oghma is the patron of bards b. Cleric kits of deities allied with Oghma - Lathander, Mystra, etc.
It is not that all kits are bad, but many do boggle the imagination given the context of the BG1 story setting. This is very unlikely to happen unless the player wants to screw the story by giving rather contorted explanations. I would have preferred for kits to be absent from default BGEE, but available via mods. This is part of the main gripe with EE that I have - modding that has run amok but which is imposed on players of all stripes. It feels like BG modded in a way that I dislike and even if I ignore the changes they still stick out like eyesores. It would have been much more tolerable if BGEE improved on solely technical aspects of BG1, and left all kits/proficiencies/spells/etc. as mods that individual players can install on their own.
EE was well-intentioned and it did bring about some good changes, such as easier play on the Mac. It is just that the design decisions can be a mixed bag for the... slivers.
I agree with many things, what you are saying against bgee. But i rather play with it now, than the original. I appreciate new things, and the work on my favourite game. There are some changes, with i don't agree, but they don't bother me too either.
Actually just one correction. I've read that he isn't hasted pre-totsc but I haven't confirmed that for myself. If you don't want him to be hasted you can use this file instead.
- Dare I face the new lord of murder with 100% magic resistance and 285 HP?
I would, but actually he's a little bit late for the party by the time he posted the file, my BGT install was almost done :P Edit: I'll edit him out with WeiDU, hehe!
BACKUP ~7C#SarTweak/backup~ AUTHOR ~CrevsDaak~ VERSION ~1.1~
ALWAYS ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~bgt bgee~ THEN BEGIN STRING_SET ~%sarefilename%~ "SAREVO" END ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~tutu_totsc~ THEN BEGIN STRING_SET ~%sarefilename%~ "_SAREVO" END END
/* Thanks go to elminster at the BG:EE forums, for giving me this idea, to Sergio at the same place, for reminding me I haven't did this before, to the IESDP for having a full entry of the CRE file format, and to all of the WeiDU creators and maintainers Thanks to Erg for getting me full information about vBG1 Sarevok */
// EOF
copy this and paste it into a tp2, name it setup-7C#SarTweak.tp2, create a 7C#SarTweak folder, and a backup folder inside that one. Drop the setup-7C#SarTweak.tp2 inside the 7C#SarTweak folder, grab a copy of WeiDU, rename it to setup-7C#SarTweak.exe and run it. Edit: yes, I'm too lazy to do that myself. Edit: updated with Erg's info.
@CrevsDaak, there is a typo in your code. It should be
ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~bgt bgee~ THEN BEGIN STRING_SET ~%sarefilename%~ "SAREVO" END ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~tutu_totsc~ THEN BEGIN STRING_SET ~%sarefilename%~ "_sarevo" END
I have several installs (vBG1, EasyTutu, BGT, BG:EE), but they all have TOTSC, so unfortunately I also don't know the missing values
For single player playthroughs, BG Tutu. People complaining about Tutu ITT did not mod it enough - did you know there are mods for TuTu which replace the sprites and the GUI with BG 1's? And that they work with BG 2 as well? Check yourselves before you wreck yourselves!
For multiplayer, I look forward to using the EEs. It will at least make setting up the clients on either end a no brainer, even if getting the multiplayer working will be a hassle. I got 3 copies of each game when it was on sale - one for me, one for a friend of mine, and one in reserve held for the Chosen One, the brave soul who will join me and said friend in tackling that final, ultimate boss of Baldur's Gate - multiplayer.
The one thing I liked about the original game (pre-totsc) was that Sarevok had 285 hp vs the 135 he has in ToTsc/EE. Pre-totsc he also had 100% resistance to magic/fire/cold/electricity/acid as well as 10% physical damage resistances. In TOTSC they boosted his Thac0 by 4, increased his dexterity to 18 and reduced his saving throws all to 1, but in the process they gave him 0% magic resistance and 90% resistances to elemental damage. He does however get 50% missile damage resistances (but no other physical damage resistances). Considering that you could only beat the original Sarevok with characters that had no more than 89,000xp his stats were pretty awesome.
Actually just one correction. I've read that he isn't hasted pre-totsc but I haven't confirmed that for myself. If you don't want him to be hasted you can use this file instead.
Pre-TOTSC Sarevok was fodder for a hasted party with arrows. Hell, even solo bards could rip him apart (*shudders at the thought*).
Also, giving Sarevok 100% MR created some storyline continuity errors, since Gorion was able to do substantial magic damage to him during the ambush fight.
Meh. The link you provided is for a TOTSC battle with Sarevok. Either way it shows a bard can solo him with a bow regardless. However, a pre-TOTSC sarevok should be immune to the arrows of detonation being used. Now we just have an enemy that can be taken out with a sufficient number of magic missiles and skull traps.
Last I checked armored figure now takes significantly more acid damage (from Melf's Acid Arrow) than he should be given that TOTSC/BGEE Sarevok has 90% acid resistance (the Armored Figure file has 0% acid resistance). So no matter which way you go here there are continuity errors.
I prefer the EE version over the OG. But my losing to Melissian from EE has cause me to play BG Vanilla again. I need to know what changes were done... I mean hell yea! She was hard as hell in OG, but i don't remember her being impossible to beat.
Comments
Edit: To correct myself. He was scripted to die at 135 health so there isn't effectively any health difference.
I belong to the tiny sliver, and I've already given EE a shot. If EE is the future, I can always play BG original, or move on to other games. If EE was required for sustained interest in BG, most players wouldn't have lasted the intervening 10 years between BG and EE. On hindsight, if it was the expectation of EE that kept interest alive, perhaps the product itself wasn't quite needed after all.
My guess is that people skip talking to every NPC in BG1 on subsequent plays, and thus think the writing is "weaker." It really isn't. It's just in a different place.
As others have mentioned, I also don't feel like BG2 kits or spells belong in BG1. The setting wasn't designed for it. Even so, I don't think a class SHOULD be able to start out as a kit anyway. It makes more sense to me, and fits into your humble beginnings, to start as a plain fighter, bard, paladin, etc, without the kit. Then, as your skills progress, you can specialize.
There is one MASSIVE thing going for BGT, TuTu, and EE however. That is SCS. SCS is a fantastic mod, and I love it. But even its glory can't win out BG1 Vanilla for me.
Lastly I wanted to end with a disclaimer. I LOVE that EE exists. It is only a good thing to re-introduce and re-vitalize the community for Baldur's Gate. Just look at this forum! Love it! If someone had never played BG before, I would likely recommend EE to them. But as someone who has played all versions of BG1 since the beginning, vanilla is the way to go.
1. Paladin/Cleric kits - Candlekeep is a seat of Oghma's power, and it is unlikely that evil gods will make aggressive inroads there since Oghma is a Greater Power himself, and good and neutral gods generally do not try to antagonize others. Ulraunt does not seem like the sort who would allow other faiths setting up shop in his keep. Candlekeep does not even have a big permanent population (divine power is tied to number of worshippers) and you have deities who want to set up shop in a thinly-populated stronghold of another powerful deity who is not even a major enemy?
2. Thief kits - A fresh character of zero XP acquires, without prior training and experience, kit-specific abilities like poisoning weapons, setting special traps, and oh, the protagonist is a teen who hunts and/or murders people too. Wow. Who does he take orders from anyway? And is he really that good to escape the entire keep's attention on his illegal actions?
There are some kits that can make sense:
a. All bard kits - Oghma is the patron of bards
b. Cleric kits of deities allied with Oghma - Lathander, Mystra, etc.
It is not that all kits are bad, but many do boggle the imagination given the context of the BG1 story setting. This is very unlikely to happen unless the player wants to screw the story by giving rather contorted explanations. I would have preferred for kits to be absent from default BGEE, but available via mods. This is part of the main gripe with EE that I have - modding that has run amok but which is imposed on players of all stripes. It feels like BG modded in a way that I dislike and even if I ignore the changes they still stick out like eyesores. It would have been much more tolerable if BGEE improved on solely technical aspects of BG1, and left all kits/proficiencies/spells/etc. as mods that individual players can install on their own.
EE was well-intentioned and it did bring about some good changes, such as easier play on the Mac. It is just that the design decisions can be a mixed bag for the... slivers.
The ability to dual wield helps, too.
(just take this cre file out of the rar file its in and throw it in the override folder)
- Dare I face the new lord of murder with 100% magic resistance and 285 HP?
Edit: I'll edit him out with WeiDU, hehe!
Edit: yes, I'm too lazy to do that myself.
Edit: updated with Erg's info.
Edit: newer versions of this mod can be found here: http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/1110-sarevok-related-tweaks/
For multiplayer, I look forward to using the EEs. It will at least make setting up the clients on either end a no brainer, even if getting the multiplayer working will be a hassle. I got 3 copies of each game when it was on sale - one for me, one for a friend of mine, and one in reserve held for the Chosen One, the brave soul who will join me and said friend in tackling that final, ultimate boss of Baldur's Gate - multiplayer.
His original stats, with the latest patch for vBG1 pre-TotSC (i.e. game version 1.1.4315), are under the spoiler tag:
Also, giving Sarevok 100% MR created some storyline continuity errors, since Gorion was able to do substantial magic damage to him during the ambush fight.
Last I checked armored figure now takes significantly more acid damage (from Melf's Acid Arrow) than he should be given that TOTSC/BGEE Sarevok has 90% acid resistance (the Armored Figure file has 0% acid resistance). So no matter which way you go here there are continuity errors.