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Are half-elves fertile?

ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
in Off-Topic
Are half-elves fertile?
I know that mules are not and it's technically the same.

This is something I was always wondering. And not just half-elves but half-[insert race here] in general.

This has of course no right answer, since it depends on the setting, franchise, headcanon etc.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this and if you know any specific cases in gaming, literature, etc. please share them :D (Especially if some of you happen to be knowledgeable on the topics of evolution and genetics).


OK, so here are a few thoughts from my part:

I don't think they are fertile but they can still conceive/ fertilize with the help of magic means.

I think of it a bit like with how the elves is Wendy Pini's ElfQuest conceive: First of all, they very rarely do. Having children is not just simply done through sex. The parents need to have a deep spiritual bond, too (I don't know how they call it in English, but in German it's called "erkennen" (identify, understand, realize).
Now, when two elves who do not have this spiritual bond want to have a child, a so called "healer" needs to be with them during the act and basically perform an artificial insemination through magic means (the healers in this world basically have the magic ability to alter elven bodies).

Also, maybe just some half-breeds are fertile depending on how closely the parent's races are related. Though for that we would need to know the evolutional line. What I do know is that the gnomes in the Forgotten Realms are a different evolutional branch of elves. So maybe the child of a gnome and an elf is fertile.
On the other hand, orcs are usually classified as goblinoids in the Realms, so I am going to assume that the child of an orc and a human would not be fertile, but the child of an orc and a goblin would be.


What do you think?
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Comments

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Hmmm, but then how come that certain mixed races are so rare? There seem to be a lot more half-elves and half-orc around then there are half-halflings which, at least in my opinion, would make much more sense, from a sociological point of view, since halflings often live among humans, at least more than elves or orcs do.

    Obviously, half-elves and half-orcs are a lot more popular among players/ authors but the numbers just make the world in-organic. How many humans would actually *want* to have a child with an orc? One would have to assume that most half-orcs are the result of rape would mean that most half-orc children would either be abandoned/ aborted. But orcs practially don't roam human cities which in return would mean that most half-orcs would have to be from areas that are known for orcs rading villages. And that means that most of the abandoned children would die in the wilderness. My point is: Half-orcs would have to be ultra-rare.
    BUT they are one of the basic races in D&D, so they are obviously not rare. So, they would have to be fertile. But then why are there practically no quarter-orcs or quarter-humans? Do half-orcs only breed with other half-orcs? Do half-elves only breed with other half-elves?

    This would all work out if there where big secluded settlements where half-orcs/ half-elves would be among themselves like the other races. But they don't, they usually live among humans/ orcs/ elves.
    Or do quarter-humans count as normal humans? Like, that the elven roots don't show? Or are relationships between "pure" races and mixed ones (wow, this sounds so wrong) an un-outspoken taboo? Questions over questions.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    PS: Maybe other half-breeds that are not orc/humans or elf/humans are so rare because the different races can't conceive from each other or at least only very very rarely.
  • Glam_VrockGlam_Vrock Member Posts: 277
    Buttercheese said:

    PS: Maybe other half-breeds that are not orc/humans or elf/humans are so rare because the different races can't conceive from each other or at least only very very rarely.

    Or Wizards of the Coast didn't want to write rules for them.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    @Glam_Vrock‌:
    Well, duh. But lazyness is no excuse. The more logically a setting is structured (aka, the more it makes sense in and out of itslelf) the more immersive it becomes. Having such big logic holes make the world the player is supposed to dive into a lot less engaging.

    So, in order to fill these gaps, we need headcanons. That's even why headcanons exist in the first place: To explain the things that would make no/ little sense otherwise.
  • NecomancerNecomancer Member Posts: 622
    edited June 2014
    Vrock is pretty much right on this. Personally I always found it silly half-orcs are a player race and yet orcs are not. Most video games with them I've seen tend to try and make them at least *somewhat* rare, besides an enemy or two I can't even think of one in the BG series. There may have been either alot or very few half-elves, since they're harder to spot due to using the same avatar as elves.

    The real problem is that lots of people wanted half-elves but theres very few demands for one quarter-lings. People love the idea of all of the elf's prettiness, with human freatures to justify certain physical attributes (such as stubble). The idea of not being accepted by either society also appeals to those who want to make a character suffering DRAMA. Oddly, I imagine halflings would be fine with a one quarterling about.

    Personally I wonder if half-orcs were just made to give the game a +str race and I wonder if they could have done it better, but regardless its a bit of a mess still.

    I'm actually reminded of Pathfinder suddenly, a game heavily based on DnD 3.5 (Its basicly DnD 3.6). The game has traits, wich are usually very minor abilities and bonuses related to a characters past selected at CHARGEN. It would have been very clever to have "elf blood" or "dwarf blood" traits that let your character be half whatever they wanted with minor benefits related to that race.

    ...Mind you, they didn't actually do that, I'm just saying it'd solve the whole "A race needed for everything even dwarf/orc crossbreeds" problem.

    ...Now I want to be a dwarforc. Darnit
  • WalstafaWalstafa Member Posts: 116
    There are other half breeds. In BG at least there's Half-Ogres for starters and there's Ogrillions (who are Half Orc, Half Ogre). I think the assumption is that humans (and possibly Orcs). I guess you can assume other pairings are infertile.

    The concept of half-orcs and half-elves has existed since Tolkien, so you can blame him on that one.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    @Necomancer‌:
    I agree, this all very weird, from a story point of view. It all makes sense in the gameplay, but - at least for me - the story, world and narrative are more important than the rules.

    I do know Pathfinder, I have a few of the books here. And I really like the idea of adding the [race]-blood option and if it just affects the look of the character and the way he is perceived by the people around him (I don't care for stats). That's at least better than have a handpicked selection of crossbreed races as stand alones. Though one can of course always ad houserules (hooray for houserules!).

    @Walstafa‌:
    Interesting, I am not to much into the Middleearth lore. Also, I like the idea of the mixed races that are not being listed being the (non) product of infertility between the races.
  • WalstafaWalstafa Member Posts: 116
    Yeah, outside of the canon demi-races I'm assuming that interspecies matings are either barren, or produce children that are basically indistinguishable from one or the other parent races (with a few minor traits from the other one). I assume this is true of demi-races too, if a half-elf breeds with a human then you'll either get a half-elf or a human with a few minor elven traits. There shouldn't be any "quarter elves" running around, although in full disclosure, I did play one in a table top game when I was younger.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited June 2014
    Interesting that this pops up. On way. I was just thinking about it the other day.
    Walstafa said:



    The concept of half-orcs and half-elves has existed since Tolkien, so you can blame him on that one.

    Well.... Not the same as dnd. There are technically not any half-elven in dnd. There are children of elves and men, but they are one or the other. They have to choose, a few years into thier life, and then they get just a few perks, but it doesn't work the same way as dnd. I also don't remember any half-orcs in Tolkien, unless you means the Uruk-Hia, which where created magically, and not really a half-breed, but a magical upgrade.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-elven#Line_of_the_Half-elven
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Half-elven_family_tree



    I always assume they are not fertile. Any half-breed. Because then all the races are the same species, and if they can all mate, then eventually there is only one race left, a composite of ll the things that used to be. It would all just get mashed up, after just a few years it would get far to complicated to track, if all the different humanoids could produce offspring, and that's disregarding the fact that if that was true they never could have even evolved to be that way. Actually, What I is the dnd origin story? Did the gods just creat life, or did it evolve, or what?
  • RavenslightRavenslight Member Posts: 1,609
    Well now, this is certainly something I’ve never thought about. I guess I always just assumed they could interbreed. That though the races developed differently, they were biologically still close enough. Kind of like how dog breeds can be so very different from each other. It is interesting to think about though.
  • TheElfTheElf Member Posts: 798
    If they have a child with a human, would it be a quarter-elf?
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    TheElf said:

    If they have a child with a human, would it be a quarter-elf?

    Yes
  • kiwidockiwidoc Member Posts: 1,437
    In the version of the Forgotten Realms covered in the books I own, not only are Half-Elves fertile, they actually have a homeland - Yuirwood. This is an area in the same peninsula as Aglarond. It is unique in that almost all of the folk living there are half-elven. These folk are fertile with each other and their offspring are also half-elven. So if half elves mate with a half elf the offspring run true to type.

    In the Forgotten Realms novels (considered non-canon) there are many examples of people who have some elven blood - including those who can trace their ancestry back to an actual elf. These families tend to be longer lived than most, but otherwise they are pretty much human.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @Meagloth Yes, ligers and tigons can be fertile. There are ti-ligers, li-ligers, ti-tigons and li-tigons. Most of these have "hybrid vigor", meaning that ligers tend to be much larger that tigers individually. (the name one gives the crosses depends on which species was the male and which was the female. Ligers are male lions crossed with female tigers. Tigons are male tigers crossed with female lions. Tigons tend to be not as large as a male lion, more on the size of a female lion. There are also "Leopons", crossing a Lion with a Leopard.

    In fact, there are tons of crossbreeds, so much that there are names for them!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera_hybrid#Liard

    Although there are names for ti-liger, ti-tigon and li-ligon crossbreeds the only li-liger is a cub (probably adult now since she was born in 2012) named Liara. She was born in a circus, I think… As far as I know, none of the others have actually been bred, even though names exist for such a cross.

    And crossbreeding is prohibited now in zoos, because they are trying to preserve the lions and tigers, who are endangered in the wild, rather than crossbreeds that muddy the waters of the two species. Of course, unlicensed breeders will do what they want, but I think it's irresponsible to do so. And that's just my take on it. Liara, the cub, was not in very good health when she was born, and it took a great deal of vet care to save her. That may have been because of all the crossbreeding that it took to make her exist- we don't know. But I don't want other cubs to be bred like her to confirm or deny that her problems came about because of her hybrid breeding. You know what I mean?
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Ulp, gotta correct myself. Those other crossbreeds have been bred, just not recently.

    http://messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-lion-tiger.htm
  • WalstafaWalstafa Member Posts: 116
    meagloth said:


    Well.... Not the same as dnd.

    Indeed, just as Tolkien's Elves aren't D&D elves, and Tolkien's Orcs aren't D&D Orcs, they took the idea of half-elves and half-orcs from Tolkien and did something different with them:

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Half-orcs
  • WalstafaWalstafa Member Posts: 116
    TheElf said:

    If they have a child with a human, would it be a quarter-elf?

    To my mind though, a "quarter-elf" would be basically indistinguishable from a human in game terms. Maybe some basic elf features but that's more a roleplaying thing.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Yeah. A person with elf blood stays a "half-elf" for as long as the blood is strong enough to have mechanical impact, regardless of what parts human and elf they have. They become humans when the elven blood is so washed out that it is barely noticeable any longer, and the ancestry is purely narrative. Half-orcs work the same way.

    Some other points that were brought up.

    1. Half-orc rarity - Yes, half-orcs should be rare, and in most settings, they are. How common they may or may not be also have nothing to do with whether or not they are core playable races.

    2. Races, unless two different races of the same kind (like for example Strongheart and Lightfoot Halflings), can generally be assumed to be unable to reproduce with other races until proven differently. How closely "related" two races are generally doesn't matter at all, because DnD generally does not give a rats ass about real life biology and evolution. A second exception should probably be made for otherwordly entities such as demons, angels, or gods (of course), which could probably reproduce with everything for mythical reasons.

    3. ...Actually, I've forgotten the other stuff I was going to respond to.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,723
    Dragon + Ooze = Half-Dragon Ooze

    Solar + rat= Half-Celestial Rat

    Fiend + Fiend = Half-Fiend Fiend

    Half-Elf + Half-Elf = Half-Half-Elf Half-Halfling
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    edited June 2014
    Don't know... Hey, you know what...? Theories never provide us with answers, only practice will. So, let's experiment on it... Please, bring a half elf young girl over my laboratory, please? :D Science requires sacrifices...
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Demonoid_Limewire said:

    Don't know... Hey, you know what...? Theories never provide us with answers, only practice will. So, let's experiment on it... Please, bring a half elf young girl over my laboratory, please? :D Science requires sacrifices...

    image
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    You guys, I swear xD
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Buttercheese said:

    You guys, I swear xD

    Trolololololololololololololoolololololololoolololoolololollllllllllll
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I know lots of really weird things HAVE existed in older editions of DnD, including an elfling (halfling and elf... possibly the worst trilogy I ever read), dwonkeys, gnoats (taurs that arent half human... seriously), and obviously the aforementioned sterile Mul.

    The term 'half' in this crossbreeding stuff is not to be taken literally in many cases, it means a creature containing mixed blood, though typically if you are at or above 3/4 a race, you're that race. It rounds up.

    As far as crossbreeding and hybridization go, health would either be excellent (mule), or terrible (tons of plant hybrids require intense care and maintenance). Its pretty important as a field of study, as some biologists suspect hybridization has been more common than previously thought. Heck, obvious example is Neanderthal and Sapiens interbreeding. Also denisovans. The definition of species is getting more fluid, which probably isnt going to surprise any botanists. ;)
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited June 2014
    Interesting discussion, but how about the half-gnome half-elf child you can have with Aerie? I wondered this as soon as I heard she romances gnomes.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    booinyoureyes said:

    Interesting discussion, but how about the half-gnome half-elf child you can have with Aerie I wondered this as soon as I heard she romances gnomes.

    She does??? I didn't know! I thought the characters in vanilla only romance elfs, humans and half-elves.
    Though it would make sense for her, having a gnomish adoptive-father and being a priestess of a gnomish god.

    But yeah, acording to the third edition Forgotten Realms campaign book, gnomes are basically mini-elves, so maybe elves and gnomes are interfertile.
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