Though it is not being widely-reported, the immigration raids have started. Now, it is not surprising that Trump has begun this process. What is HEINOUS is that there are reports of ICE agents waiting for children to get off school buses and essentially lead them to their parents (the children are legal citizens, the parents are not), or in fact, simply waiting for the parents to pick their children up at school to round them up and get ready for deportation. What will happen to the children?? Who cares I guess.....we're making America great again.
Yeah, these people crossed an imaginary line illegally. Great, I'll grant that. Maybe conservatives would like to think of the FINANCIAL implications of what it's going to take for the State to raise essentially orphaned children. Because, like it or not, if you are born on US soil, you are a citizen. Eventually, you are going to start seeing this on wider scale. So many people will be in custody that it will necessitate the building of camps to house them until the deportation process can take place. Just another sign, people. It's all on the way.
Oh, and the Great Wall on the border. It has now been revealed that it's apparently going to cost TWICE as much as Trump originally indicated. Though I have a feeling if it cost 85% of the budget of the United States most Trump voters would still want it built.
So "SEE YOU IN COURT" Trump is now see you in court later Trump. Sources are saying he's going to hold off on appealing for now. Why's he doing that when he's so sure he's right and skurity! danger! and all that stuff?
Since there are 8 judges due to Mitch McConnell's machinations, suppose the justices go to a 4-4 decision on the ban. In that case the lower court's ruling, which totally rebukes Trump, will stand. So he's going to wait until he can install his man on the Supreme Court and presumably it would go to a 5-4 decision in his favor. Packing the courts, a winning strategy?
Any judge he appoints will have to recuse himself. No matter what, if this reaches the Supremes, only the 8 currently seated will be deciding.
Why would he have to recuse himself? Trump doesn't care about conflicts of interest period. He's still making money off of foreign bribes that flow into his businesses that he still owns. See also his ethically challenged nominees.
Let me tell you a secret. Pro-life really means anti-woman
Well, I'd say that if you personally are pro-life--as in, you personally wouldn't seek an abortion because it's against your personal beliefs or moral structure--I wouldn't say that's the same as being anti-women.
But if you're all about taking those personal beliefs and shoving them down everyone's throats, regardless of circumstances, and also happen to be against basic preventative care like birth control and sex education, and also against basic programs like food stamps and WIC that would help the resulting child you forced into the world--
Then yes. You are anti-women. And anti-life, as it turns out, since you're so intent on ruining someone else's.
I don't even call these people pro-life anymore. I call them pro-birth, because that's all they care about.
Hey how about that Japanese and American Press Conference. The awkward handshake. The Trumpster pretending he understands Japanese by nodding at certain points - after he forgot to put in his earpiece that a translator can tell him what the guy was saying.
Let me tell you a secret. Pro-life really means anti-woman
Well, I'd say that if you personally are pro-life--as in, you personally wouldn't seek an abortion because it's against your personal beliefs or moral structure--I wouldn't say that's the same as being anti-women.
But if you're all about taking those personal beliefs and shoving them down everyone's throats, regardless of circumstances, and also happen to be against basic preventative care like birth control and sex education, and also against basic programs like food stamps and WIC that would help the resulting child you forced into the world--
Then yes. You are anti-women. And anti-life, as it turns out, since you're so intent on ruining someone else's.
I don't even call these people pro-life anymore. I call them pro-birth, because that's all they care about.
Unfortunately there is no way to control the emotional devastation caused by abortion. No matter how you look at it, it is a selfish action. I'm not sure any amount of 'normalization' would make it something a woman would look at it something 'guilt free'. The troubling thing is that many of the proponents of it are the same as were proponents for eugenics, before the stigma attached to that philosophy. The fact that it's more prevalent in lower income situations is exactly why former eugenics proponents were in favor of it to begin with. The only way out is better education...
Trying to put a lid on human sexual desire is an impossibility, thus making any abstinence-themed sex education a failure from it's inception. There are two surefire ways to seriously curtail the number of abortions, and drastically so. #1 is a realistic sex education that deals with reality and not religious morals nearly no human can live up to. #2 is making the effectiveness of contraception widely-known and making the methods of contraception widely available.
However, again, this is where the argument falls apart. Chances are extremely high that one who is against abortion is also against comprehensive sex education in schools, and having any funding for contraception in federally funded healthcare. And they are also very likely to be for abstinence-only education. Instead of trying to control human sexuality (which is like trying to control the weather) as a means of preventing all abortion, pro-life advocates could actually prevent many of them from actually occurring by getting on board with realistic methods of preventing them. Sex education and contraception work, the numbers prove this. It's no coincidence that many red states have the highest rates of abortion and out of wedlock birth.
If the right wants to eliminate abortion, they never will. They'll keep getting sold a bill of goods by conservative politicians who want to keep the ISSUE to run on in perpetuity far more than they ever would want to get rid of it. Even if Trump's Supreme Court pick after his stolen one succeeds in overturning Roe, they will never eliminate the practice in solid blue states. So, barring an impossibility, if they were serious about saving potential children, they would sign on to the methods mentioned above that actually have a chance of accomplishing their goal in tangible ways. But religion and faith dictate the movement, and thus it's all or nothing. They'll continue to end up with the later.
Let me tell you a secret. Pro-life really means anti-woman
Well, I'd say that if you personally are pro-life--as in, you personally wouldn't seek an abortion because it's against your personal beliefs or moral structure--I wouldn't say that's the same as being anti-women.
But if you're all about taking those personal beliefs and shoving them down everyone's throats, regardless of circumstances, and also happen to be against basic preventative care like birth control and sex education, and also against basic programs like food stamps and WIC that would help the resulting child you forced into the world--
Then yes. You are anti-women. And anti-life, as it turns out, since you're so intent on ruining someone else's.
I don't even call these people pro-life anymore. I call them pro-birth, because that's all they care about.
Unfortunately there is no way to control the emotional devastation caused by abortion. No matter how you look at it, it is a selfish action. I'm not sure any amount of 'normalization' would make it something a woman would look at it something 'guilt free'. The troubling thing is that many of the proponents of it are the same as were proponents for eugenics, before the stigma attached to that philosophy. The fact that it's more prevalent in lower income situations is exactly why former eugenics proponents were in favor of it to begin with. The only way out is better education...
You often see those that are prolife seem to stop caring about life once the baby is born. After you are born you are on your own. And what about refugees and immigrants, these people are alive but unwanted.
No matter how you look at itIn my own opinion, it is a selfish action.
Fixed that for you.
In your own opinion how is it not a selfish action?
When a woman is raped. When a woman's birth control fails her and she can't afford another child. When a woman will die otherwise.
There are many complex reasons why a woman would get an abortion. Many of them are heart-wrenching and painful, and the women making such personal decisions don't need to be demonized or made out to feel like they're being "selfish". That kind of shame only leads to depression and self-hate, a place of darkness that isn't helpful or healthy.
And if you are so "pro-life" that is not a kind of pain you would wish on another living breathing human being.
Edit: And while we're talking about needlessly shaming people, why is it that only women are made out to feel guilty for having an abortion? What about the men who also took part in creating an unwanted pregnancy to begin with? This isn't to say that they don't feel guilty about it too, but from what I've seen, society heaps almost all the blame on the woman. Think about that, would you?
In addition to women getting abortions for many different reasons, contraception is not solely used to engage in sexual activity without getting pregnant. There are a myriad of other reasons why a Dr. may prescribe birth control pills to a woman that have nothing to do with preventing a pregnancy, ranging from anemia to regulating a heavy menstrual cycle. These reasons are almost NEVER discussed when talking about birth control. Instead, in most political debates, it is regulated to being a "slut pill", so to speak.
You often see those that are prolife seem to stop caring about life once the baby is born. After you are born you are on your own. And what about refugees and immigrants, these people are alive but unwanted.
Your reaching. My stance on abortion does not inform my beliefs in other areas. For the record, however, I'm all for welcoming immigrants and refugees. One half of my family immigrated to where we live now. I would love to see adoption encouraged, to give these children families that will love them as well.
"When a woman is raped. When a woman's birth control fails her and she can't afford another child. When a woman will die otherwise." Are we going to punish an innocent child for the crime of its "parent"? How about giving the child to one of the thousands of families in the US alone who desperately want a child? Un less you are saving the life of the mother, there is no reason to slaughter our children.
No matter how you look at itIn my own opinion, it is a selfish action.
Fixed that for you.
In your own opinion how is it not a selfish action?
When a woman is raped. When a woman's birth control fails her and she can't afford another child. When a woman will die otherwise.
There are many complex reasons why a woman would get an abortion. Many of them are heart-wrenching and painful, and the women making such personal decisions don't need to be demonized or made out to feel like they're being "selfish". That kind of shame only leads to depression and self-hate, a place of darkness that isn't helpful or healthy.
And if you are so "pro-life" that is not a kind of pain you would wish on another living breathing human being.
Edit: And while we're talking about needlessly shaming people, why is it that only women are made out to feel guilty for having an abortion? What about the men who also took part in creating an unwanted pregnancy to begin with? This isn't to say that they don't feel guilty about it too, but from what I've seen, society heaps almost all the blame on the woman. Think about that, would you?
I agree with you in those relatively rare cases. I'm also not opposed to the morning after pill. People are complex. I don't fit in the Lifer box...
Are all the pro-choicers so sure that it's society that's making women feel bad about abortions? I've read a lot about soldiers who kill in war. Even if they 'know' they're in the right, say the US or Britain in WW2, it still takes a toll to kill. Only a sociopath kills with no regard to consequences and even that's debatable. I don't say that it's a choice that should be taken away from women, I just say that it changes a person. And not for the better. I'm glad I'm not a woman and would perhaps be forced to make that terrible choice but I won't be that person to tell any of them that it's an easy choice and that person in their body is just tissue either...
I got tempted to respond. But I'm going to play candy crush instead and avoid politics. Not sure why I'm sharing this exactly, my knee was just twitching. Carry on.
I got tempted to respond. But I'm going to play candy crush instead and avoid politics. Not sure why I'm sharing this exactly, my knee was just twitching. Carry on.
I'm not afraid of anyone's views. Just know that I have reasons for mine. Feel free to agree or disagree with me. That's what I like about this forum.
You often see those that are prolife seem to stop caring about life once the baby is born. After you are born you are on your own. And what about refugees and immigrants, these people are alive but unwanted.
Your reaching. My stance on abortion does not inform my beliefs in other areas. For the record, however, I'm all for welcoming immigrants and refugees. One half of my family immigrated to where we live now. I would love to see adoption encouraged, to give these children families that will love them as well.
"When a woman is raped. When a woman's birth control fails her and she can't afford another child. When a woman will die otherwise." Are we going to punish an innocent child for the crime of its "parent"? How about giving the child to one of the thousands of families in the US alone who desperately want a child? Un less you are saving the life of the mother, there is no reason to slaughter our children.
Are you willing to punish a teenage girl with the trauma of childbirth and financial distress when she's been raped and impregnated and can't even drive?
How would you feel learning that your father raped your mother and your mother didn't want you? Because every time she saw you, she thought of the pain inflicted on her?
How do you plan to fund the adoption agencies nationwide that are already overwhelmed with children? Taxes? And how do you plan to help the child who will inevitably age out of foster care and be out on their own?
There are no easy answers to these questions. That's why I'm pro-choice. I don't believe any government body should be making these judgment calls for an entire population as diverse as the United States.
@Nonnahswriter Thats really the big difference between these stances. Whose life do you value more. On one hand, some of your points are certainly valid. "How would you feel learning that your father raped your mother and your mother didn't want you? Because every time she saw you, she thought of the pain inflicted on her?" The mother may not have emotionally been able to take of a child born from trauma like that, but what of the flipside? "Your mother was unable to take care of you, but she felt that you deserved a better chance at life."
On one hand, the women in your examples have been very deeply wronged, but they can carry on, they find support, they can speak to defend themselves. Unborn children cannot, they are entirely at the mercy of something who doesn't want them, someone who only sees them as a punishment, and they blameless as to the reason. Someone needs to stand up and speak for these children. Someone, somewhere wants them, would treasure every moment caring for these unwanted children, and it is a grievous failing that our society does so little to help them.
@Nonnahswriter Thats really the big difference between these stances. Whose life do you value more. On one hand, some of your points are certainly valid. "How would you feel learning that your father raped your mother and your mother didn't want you? Because every time she saw you, she thought of the pain inflicted on her?" The mother may not have emotionally been able to take of a child born from trauma like that, but what of the flipside? "Your mother was unable to take care of you, but she felt that you deserved a better chance at life."
On one hand, the women in your examples have been very deeply wronged, but they can carry on, they find support, they can speak to defend themselves. Unborn children cannot, they are entirely at the mercy of something who doesn't want them, someone who only sees them as a punishment, and they blameless as to the reason. Someone needs to stand up and speak for these children. Someone, somewhere wants them, would treasure every moment caring for these unwanted children, and it is a grievous failing that our society does so little to help them.
Abortion. A very modern issue. A very developed world issue.
Before the 1900s child infant mortality rates were, frankly, horrific.
We still see and say in our culture angelic babies... Because, frankly, in the past, most babies died in their first year. (This is actually still true today but at much lower rates).
Families however were large and birth control was non-existent.
Go forward a few decades to today and we have mothers who would have died during child birth through cesarean (a very ancient technique that would usually kill the mother).
Then, miraculously, babies that are born prematurely, and the old term is miscarriage, can survive.
21 weeks. Babies are being been born after only gestating for 21 weeks!
Some ladies may not even realise they are pregnant within this time.
Babies are also not expected to die young. They will most likely grow and become economically dependent on its parents. We can't send them down the mines aged 6 to earn a wage like my great-great grandad did... Or sell them into slavery... Colonial Africa was horrible place...
Luckily birth control means that women do not turn into life long baby makers...
Okay. So accidents happen. My brother was memorably told he was a split condom.
My parents were economically advantaged to handle the situation. We moved house.
There are numerous situations why a birth may not be wanted. Medical, Rape etc... However for whatever reason...
THE CHOICE SHOULD RESIDE WITH THE WOMAN.
The economic reason however is the crux. A choice should be made freely. And freedom from financial implications should in an ideal world be possible.
Anti-abortionists should focus on this. Trying to ensure women have that ultimate free choice. But shouting at them and waving placards is easier to do.
Unwanted children are the saddest wretches on the planet. With all the will in the world we do not have the resources still to care for them properly. Why we purposefully want to make more seems cruel.
"Unwanted children are the saddest wretches on the planet. With all the will in the world we do not have the resources still to care for them properly." We absolutely do have the resources. The only problem is priority.
"FinneousPJ said: @ThacoBell So when does the fetus become a child worth saving? Or is every sperm sacred?
Sperm Is Life And We’ve Gotta Legislate Every Sperm Is Sacred"
"Why aren't the pro-lifer's on board with this? Or are only women's bodies to be legislated?"
Funny, ha ha. I'm talking about preserving lives and you start joking.
Comments
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-agents-conduct-sweeping-immigration-enforcement-raids-in-at-least-6-states/2017/02/10/4b9f443a-efc8-11e6-b4ff-ac2cf509efe5_story.html?utm_term=.688dc83d55a2
Yeah, these people crossed an imaginary line illegally. Great, I'll grant that. Maybe conservatives would like to think of the FINANCIAL implications of what it's going to take for the State to raise essentially orphaned children. Because, like it or not, if you are born on US soil, you are a citizen. Eventually, you are going to start seeing this on wider scale. So many people will be in custody that it will necessitate the building of camps to house them until the deportation process can take place. Just another sign, people. It's all on the way.
Oh, and the Great Wall on the border. It has now been revealed that it's apparently going to cost TWICE as much as Trump originally indicated. Though I have a feeling if it cost 85% of the budget of the United States most Trump voters would still want it built.
Hey how about that Japanese and American Press Conference. The awkward handshake. The Trumpster pretending he understands Japanese by nodding at certain points - after he forgot to put in his earpiece that a translator can tell him what the guy was saying.
The guy's an embarrassment, everyday something.
However, again, this is where the argument falls apart. Chances are extremely high that one who is against abortion is also against comprehensive sex education in schools, and having any funding for contraception in federally funded healthcare. And they are also very likely to be for abstinence-only education. Instead of trying to control human sexuality (which is like trying to control the weather) as a means of preventing all abortion, pro-life advocates could actually prevent many of them from actually occurring by getting on board with realistic methods of preventing them. Sex education and contraception work, the numbers prove this. It's no coincidence that many red states have the highest rates of abortion and out of wedlock birth.
If the right wants to eliminate abortion, they never will. They'll keep getting sold a bill of goods by conservative politicians who want to keep the ISSUE to run on in perpetuity far more than they ever would want to get rid of it. Even if Trump's Supreme Court pick after his stolen one succeeds in overturning Roe, they will never eliminate the practice in solid blue states. So, barring an impossibility, if they were serious about saving potential children, they would sign on to the methods mentioned above that actually have a chance of accomplishing their goal in tangible ways. But religion and faith dictate the movement, and thus it's all or nothing. They'll continue to end up with the later.
In your own opinion how is it not a selfish action?
When a woman is raped. When a woman's birth control fails her and she can't afford another child. When a woman will die otherwise.
There are many complex reasons why a woman would get an abortion. Many of them are heart-wrenching and painful, and the women making such personal decisions don't need to be demonized or made out to feel like they're being "selfish". That kind of shame only leads to depression and self-hate, a place of darkness that isn't helpful or healthy.
And if you are so "pro-life" that is not a kind of pain you would wish on another living breathing human being.
Edit: And while we're talking about needlessly shaming people, why is it that only women are made out to feel guilty for having an abortion? What about the men who also took part in creating an unwanted pregnancy to begin with? This isn't to say that they don't feel guilty about it too, but from what I've seen, society heaps almost all the blame on the woman. Think about that, would you?
"When a woman is raped. When a woman's birth control fails her and she can't afford another child. When a woman will die otherwise." Are we going to punish an innocent child for the crime of its "parent"? How about giving the child to one of the thousands of families in the US alone who desperately want a child? Un less you are saving the life of the mother, there is no reason to slaughter our children.
There are many complex reasons why a woman would get an abortion. Many of them are heart-wrenching and painful, and the women making such personal decisions don't need to be demonized or made out to feel like they're being "selfish". That kind of shame only leads to depression and self-hate, a place of darkness that isn't helpful or healthy.
And if you are so "pro-life" that is not a kind of pain you would wish on another living breathing human being.
Edit: And while we're talking about needlessly shaming people, why is it that only women are made out to feel guilty for having an abortion? What about the men who also took part in creating an unwanted pregnancy to begin with? This isn't to say that they don't feel guilty about it too, but from what I've seen, society heaps almost all the blame on the woman. Think about that, would you?
I agree with you in those relatively rare cases. I'm also not opposed to the morning after pill. People are complex. I don't fit in the Lifer box...
How would you feel learning that your father raped your mother and your mother didn't want you? Because every time she saw you, she thought of the pain inflicted on her?
How do you plan to fund the adoption agencies nationwide that are already overwhelmed with children? Taxes? And how do you plan to help the child who will inevitably age out of foster care and be out on their own?
There are no easy answers to these questions. That's why I'm pro-choice. I don't believe any government body should be making these judgment calls for an entire population as diverse as the United States.
"How would you feel learning that your father raped your mother and your mother didn't want you? Because every time she saw you, she thought of the pain inflicted on her?" The mother may not have emotionally been able to take of a child born from trauma like that, but what of the flipside? "Your mother was unable to take care of you, but she felt that you deserved a better chance at life."
On one hand, the women in your examples have been very deeply wronged, but they can carry on, they find support, they can speak to defend themselves. Unborn children cannot, they are entirely at the mercy of something who doesn't want them, someone who only sees them as a punishment, and they blameless as to the reason. Someone needs to stand up and speak for these children. Someone, somewhere wants them, would treasure every moment caring for these unwanted children, and it is a grievous failing that our society does so little to help them.
Before the 1900s child infant mortality rates were, frankly, horrific.
We still see and say in our culture angelic babies... Because, frankly, in the past, most babies died in their first year. (This is actually still true today but at much lower rates).
Families however were large and birth control was non-existent.
Go forward a few decades to today and we have mothers who would have died during child birth through cesarean (a very ancient technique that would usually kill the mother).
Then, miraculously, babies that are born prematurely, and the old term is miscarriage, can survive.
21 weeks. Babies are being been born after only gestating for 21 weeks!
Some ladies may not even realise they are pregnant within this time.
Babies are also not expected to die young. They will most likely grow and become economically dependent on its parents. We can't send them down the mines aged 6 to earn a wage like my great-great grandad did... Or sell them into slavery... Colonial Africa was horrible place...
Luckily birth control means that women do not turn into life long baby makers...
Okay. So accidents happen. My brother was memorably told he was a split condom.
My parents were economically advantaged to handle the situation. We moved house.
There are numerous situations why a birth may not be wanted. Medical, Rape etc... However for whatever reason...
THE CHOICE SHOULD RESIDE WITH THE WOMAN.
The economic reason however is the crux. A choice should be made freely. And freedom from financial implications should in an ideal world be possible.
Anti-abortionists should focus on this. Trying to ensure women have that ultimate free choice. But shouting at them and waving placards is easier to do.
Unwanted children are the saddest wretches on the planet. With all the will in the world we do not have the resources still to care for them properly. Why we purposefully want to make more seems cruel.
Every Sperm Is Sacred
Why aren't the pro-lifer's on board with this? Or are only women's bodies to be legislated?
"FinneousPJ said:
@ThacoBell So when does the fetus become a child worth saving? Or is every sperm sacred?
Sperm Is Life And We’ve Gotta Legislate
Every Sperm Is Sacred"
"Why aren't the pro-lifer's on board with this? Or are only women's bodies to be legislated?"
Funny, ha ha. I'm talking about preserving lives and you start joking.