The Israel-Palestine conflict is a pointless and destructive one. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are responsible for targeting civilians, escalating the conflict and repeated failures of negotiation. The huge majority of casualties on both sides are either civilians or young conscripts. The current state there is a waste of lives on both sides and just perpetuates a cycle of violence, as @Anduin's video nicely demonstrates.
Taking one side or the other tends to ignore the failings of both leaderships over decades. Arguing over who is worse is a just talk - both of them need to sit down to bargain and compromise.
Sit and talk is easy to say, Let me say this: As long as other nations will continue to pull strings in this conflict, it will never end. Just to emphasis some of its complication:
The West Bank is controlled by Abu-Mazen and the Fatah, Supported by Saudia Arabia, Egypt, UAE.
Gaza Strip is controlled by Hamas, supported by Iran, Qatar and Turkey.
Hamas are direct rival of the Fatah ( they actually took over Gaza strip from the Fatah, executed them and threw them from 7 story buildings )
Also Egypt and Saudi Arabia are fierce rival of Qatar and Turkey, to say the least.. fighting over influence on the Middle east.
While the Fatah are in doubt more devoted for two state solution, Hamas is devoted to the destruction and obliteration of Israel, and establishing an Islamic state all over the region ( much like ISIS in Iraq ).
There will be no sitting and talking. There may be cease-fires but they will not last. Sadly, this particular conflict has been going on for so long and has become so personal that unless something wildly dramatic and/or statistically improbable happens the only resolution to this fight will be when one side has killed the other side, to the last person. Any survivors will ultimately seek revenge and start the process over again.
I wish I were wrong about it but everything I see and read about it tells me that I am not. As I noted, this fight is *personal*--I want to kill you because your grandfather killed my grandfather and you want to kill me because my father killed your father and so on and so forth.
I do have unfortunate news for the Palestinians, though--ultimately they will lose. Not only do they not have the support of other Muslim nations, some of whom couldn't care less what happens to the Palestinians, but the philosophical foundation driving the Israeli response is "never again" and that is a philosophy whose motivating power is not to be underestimated.
I support neither side because neither side is willing to listen to reason--they are both wrong.
I am just stunned that any sympathy for the Palestinian people, who are the casualties of this war by something like a 200/1 margin, is automatically construed as support for Hamas. I don't support Hamas in any way, but I can certainly UNDERSTAND why they have won support recently, and it's the simple fact that they provide basic things like medical care and clean water to people who live in a poverty we in Western nations can't even fathom. Furthermore, a massive percentage of the population of Gaza Strip are children, who last I checked don't get a say in the political process, yet they are getting blown up on beaches.
Yes, Israel has to live with the threat of Hamas rocket attacks, but most of Hamas' rockets don't even make it across. Let's not compare Hamas' practically homemade missiles to the state of the art technological terrors that Israel is able to respond with, not to mention their Iron Dome defense system which knocks most of them out of the air (and thank god for that). The Palestinian people have no such protections or advanced technology. The only power plant in Gaza was destroyed yesterday, they barely have any running water and their hospitals are getting blown up.
And let me be clear, whatever Hamas is aiming for is idiocy, as they will NEVER, in a million years, win a war of attrition with Israel, who has the full and unquestioning backing of the largest military power in the world. They should stop firing rockets immediately, but we all know that isn't going to happen.
@Anduin Nope, as much as I would like to see some peace, quiet and prosperity, I don't see it happening, not in my life time anyway. To many perceived differences, to much bad blood.
Religion can be a wonderful and beneficial thing but it can also be a pretty bloody serious curse.
Hamas and the Palestinians brought this on themselves, they know the Israelis are exceedingly capable and willing to fight, why keep provoking them? Israel does what it can to minimize civilian casualties, I mean really, if someone told me that 2 Kfir's with 11 tons of bombs on board are going to hit my street in 15 minutes I would be gone. Very gone, on foot. I can cover a fair distance in 15 minutes when someone wants to bomb me. Not to mention that broadcasting this information puts their own flight crew and soldiers in EXTREME danger themselves. . .
I'd urge everyone who believes in the righteous cause of Israel to check out the just released video of a march in Tel Aviv, in which the crowd cheers "Tomorrow there is no school in Gaza, they don't have any children left" followed by "Gaza is a graveyard." I'm not even going to post a link here, it's too revolting.
I do vaguely remember that video, I'll have to see if I can find it again. But once again I ask you, why would Hamas give them an EXCUSE?! Do they think their annoying rocket and mortar attacks into Israel will do anything? They can't win this fight, why provoke them into action?
I do vaguely remember that video, I'll have to see if I can find it again. But once again I ask you, why would Hamas give them an EXCUSE?! Do they think their annoying rocket and mortar attacks into Israel will do anything? They can't win this fight, why provoke them into action?
I agree with you 100% about Hamas. But at what point does the moral cost on Israel's shoulders become to much to bear?? The Palestinian people can't stop Hamas, they are too busy wondering if they will be able to feed and bathe their children tomorrow, or indeed if they will even be alive. 1100 Palestinian's are dead, and the vast majority of them are civilians. 53 Israeli troops have lost their lives. I don't blame the Israeli people as a whole either, it is their fanatical government led by Netanyahu and his horrid Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon, whose political fortunes have always been tied to escalation of armed conflict.
I am just stunned that any sympathy for the Palestinian people, who are the casualties of this war by something like a 200/1 margin, is automatically construed as support for Hamas.
I agree with you here. Western Nations need to differentiate between Hamas and Palestinian. Yes they were "elected" in the early naught's, however, that doesn't paint all Palestinian's as terrorist. Much like when Harper gets elected in Canada, it doesn't paint the entire population as Conservative backers. We just have freedom of speech which won't get us shot in the street if we attempt to protest their actions.
Now the part I do not agree with is the 200/1 casualty count. Firstly, I would probably assume the majority of Palestinian causalities are caused by Hamas and then blamed on Israel. These can be accounted for in rockets that they have fired falling short, or as others pointed out, making sure the Palestinian people live in fear and ignorance that dying a martyr against Israel is their best option.
Secondly, every time you read an article about how many Palestinian deaths there were, try to find who the source who provided the number. If it is the Palestinian authorities take it with a grain of salt.
I don't support Hamas in any way, but I can certainly UNDERSTAND why they have won support recently, and it's the simple fact that they provide basic things like medical care and clean water to people who live in a poverty we in Western nations can't even fathom. Furthermore, a massive percentage of the population of Gaza Strip are children, who last I checked don't get a say in the political process, yet they are getting blown up on beaches.
Yes yes, Hamas has things like soup kitchen and other forms of aiding the poor. It is how they get most of their donations which are corruptly used elsewhere. They are a front, nothing more.
Yes, Israel has to live with the threat of Hamas rocket attacks, but most of Hamas' rockets don't even make it across. Let's not compare Hamas' practically homemade missiles to the state of the art technological terrors that Israel is able to respond with, not to mention their Iron Dome defense system which knocks most of them out of the air (and thank god for that). The Palestinian people have no such protections or advanced technology. The only power plant in Gaza was destroyed yesterday, they barely have any running water and their hospitals are getting blown up.
Lets do some roleplay. I am going to lob some stones at the windows of your house to attempt to break them. You invented, with one of your closest friends, a devise that has a 90% chance of stopping the rocks at midflight and falling harmlessly to the ground. However every time you use the device, you have to pay $100. I am going to continue throwing rocks until all of your windows are broken, regardless of any concessions you might be willing to give to me.
How much money and/or windows are you willing to lose before you come out of your house and punch me in the face? And I won't run out of rocks because all of your neighbors are supplying them to me at a low cost.
And let me be clear, whatever Hamas is aiming for is idiocy, as they will NEVER, in a million years, win a war of attrition with Israel, who has the full and unquestioning backing of the largest military power in the world. They should stop firing rockets immediately, but we all know that isn't going to happen.
They might not win. But their goal is get global opinion of Israel extremely low so that other nations would find it feasible to allow other countries like Iran to declare war on them to stop the atrocities they are committing against the unfortunate Palestinian people.
I'd urge everyone who believes in the righteous cause of Israel to check out the just released video of a march in Tel Aviv, in which the crowd cheers "Tomorrow there is no school in Gaza, they don't have any children left" followed by "Gaza is a graveyard." I'm not even going to post a link here, it's too revolting.
You take a protest of couple of hundreds of far-right activists and figure out that this is the stance of the government of Israel. There are in Israel protest from the far-right just as there are protest of the far-left, its called democracy.
Recently there are many Anti-Semite protests in France, Germany and England with some horrible slogans, does it means that those countries or their government are anti-Semite ??
I do vaguely remember that video, I'll have to see if I can find it again. But once again I ask you, why would Hamas give them an EXCUSE?! Do they think their annoying rocket and mortar attacks into Israel will do anything? They can't win this fight, why provoke them into action?
I agree with you 100% about Hamas. But at what point does the moral cost on Israel's shoulders become to much to bear?? The Palestinian people can't stop Hamas, they are too busy wondering if they will be able to feed and bathe their children tomorrow, or indeed if they will even be alive. 1100 Palestinian's are dead, and the vast majority of them are civilians. 53 Israeli troops have lost their lives. I don't blame the Israeli people as a whole either, it is their fanatical government led by Netanyahu and his horrid Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon, whose political fortunes have always been tied to escalation of armed conflict.
The Palestinians people can't stop Hamas not because they are too busy wondering if they will be able to feed their children, the Palestinians can't stop Hamas because anyone who will try to do so will get shot or beheaded like yesterday. Or will be tied up to a motorcycle and will be dragged in the street.
Again, Hamas got billions of dollars foreign aid, BILLIONS! did it go to "medical care and clean water"? no did it go to infrastructure such as sewage and water systems? no
by the way, the fortune of Haled Mashal and Abu Marzuk, the leaders of Hamas , is estimated in billion of dollars each. Ismail Haniya has only ~4 million dollars.
The last thing that Hamas care is it's population welfare. All the Medical aid and food comes from Israel, even during this conflict Israel continue to send trucks with food and medicine into Gaza.
Israel has even opened field hospital near the borders to treat Palestinians - yet Hamas prevent them from going there.
I don't blame the Israeli people as a whole either, it is their fanatical government led by Netanyahu and his horrid Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon, whose political fortunes have always been tied to escalation of armed conflict.
I always hear about "Netanyahu is a warmonger", yet it turns out that he is the most passive PM of Israel in the last decade, The Hamas fired rockets into Israel for almost a week before Israel decided to respond. 200 rockets towards Israel with no what so ever response, "Silence will be met with Silence" Netanyahu said. Even after that, it took him nearly a week until he decided to start a limited ground operation, after seeing Hamas just keep shooting, and right now he still not willing in any way to expand it, he only strive to reach a cease fire.
It's hard to have this conversation at times because it gets so bitter, but I feel it's important enough to keep going with as much respect as possible. First off, let me say that criticizing Israel in polite company in America is viewed somewhere between spitting on your grandmother and butchering puppies. The American media is a full-fledged propaganda tool that is at the disposal of the Israeli government, and Netanyahu has been quoted on tape before as mentioning how comically simple it is to manipulate the US population, media, and government. Just in the past few weeks we have had Diane Sawyer on ABC Nightly News identify a bombed Palestinian area as being a neighborhood in Israel, and David Gregory on Meet the Press on Sunday sandbag a Palestinian spokesman with a unverified video from Israel that CLAIMED to be footage of Hamas firing rockets from a UN shelter, when it fact it was a grainy black and white video of someone firing a rocket from some building somewhere, which was later debunked. That is just the tip of the iceberg. This is the same media that willfully and enthusiastically helped march us into a all-time historic blunder in Iraq. They are nothing but a cog in the military industrial complex, and they serve the interests of their paymasters (Boeing, Northrup Grumman, GE etc). I don't trust a word they say, and I freely admit that when I want real information, I turn to the BBC, Al Jazeera, and Democracy Now.
That said, about the video march in Israel....it matters because the extreme right-wing is who is in charge in Israel, and those people are Netanyahu's constituency. It also matters because what they are saying is actually happening. Arabs in many countries may call for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish state, but it isn't actually happening. That's why I feel the video is significant, because those people in the march are WELL represented in the Israeli government. The Palestinians are blockaded into an area the size of the District of Columbia and are dependent on Israel for everything they are "allowed" to have. A Israeli official last year bragged about putting the people in Gaza on a diet, referring to how they were rationing the food allowed in, and calculating it so that it was pretty much just enough so the Palestinians won't starve to death.
Finally, I want to take a look at a few pictures, this is the end result of a Hamas rocket:
Here is the result of a Israeli rocket:
And finally, a graph detailing the casualties:
Now, it's possible that Israel is telling the truth when they say that they are trying to avoid civilian casualties as best they can, and that the astonishing amounts of Palestinian deaths is simply a result of them being perhaps the most inept military on the face of the Earth. Or it could be that this is entirely intentional in many respects, that this is in fact a "lesson" for electing Hamas to a leadership position, which is what I tend to believe. At this point it is nothing but a slaughter.
It's hard to have this conversation at times because it gets so bitter, but I feel it's important enough to keep going with as much respect as possible. First off, let me say that criticizing Israel in polite company in America is viewed somewhere between spitting on your grandmother and butchering puppies. The American media is a full-fledged propaganda tool that is at the disposal of the Israeli government, and Netanyahu has been quoted on tape before as mentioning how comically simple it is to manipulate the US population, media, and government. Just in the past few weeks we have had Diane Sawyer on ABC Nightly News identify a bombed Palestinian area as being a neighborhood in Israel, and David Gregory on Meet the Press on Sunday sandbag a Palestinian spokesman with a unverified video from Israel that CLAIMED to be footage of Hamas firing rockets from a UN shelter, when it fact it was a grainy black and white video of someone firing a rocket from some building somewhere, which was later debunked. That is just the tip of the iceberg. This is the same media that willfully and enthusiastically helped march us into a all-time historic blunder in Iraq. They are nothing but a cog in the military industrial complex, and they serve the interests of their paymasters (Boeing, Northrup Grumman, GE etc). I don't trust a word they say, and I freely admit that when I want real information, I turn to the BBC, Al Jazeera, and Democracy Now.
Al Jazeera is basically Hamas spokesman, They are controlled solely by Qatar which finance Hamas.
Furthermore, UNRWA itself claimed that they found rockets in their schools, for the 3rd time!
GAZA, July 29 (Reuters) - The United Nations agency that looks after Palestinian refugees said on Tuesday it had found a cache of rockets at one of its schools in the Gaza Strip and deplored those who had put them there.
Hamas is firing from schools, hospitals and other populated areas, there are enough evidence for that and its a complete fact, even Hamas say it serves his cause.
Just today 3 IDF soldiers were killed when they have entered UNRWA clinic, which was booby-trapped and explode upon damn, UNRWA Clinic.
Also BBC is biased and selective, all it shows is how much the Gaza civilians suffers, there is no deny that they are greatly suffer and miserable, yet BBC doesn't show the context of the situation. Haven't you asked yourself why there are no what so ever pictures of Hamas militants in Gaza? only civilians?? You can almost think that the IDF is fighting ghosts.
The reporters in Gaza can't report the whole story in Gaza, because Hamas won't let them, and that's all the information that you get, just a quick example, an Italian reporter who went out of Gaza:
@ gabrielebarbati
Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris
Notice the 'retaliation', that's what the reporters in Gaza are facing, therefor they are reporting only one side of the conflict.
I met today with a Spanish journalist who just came back from Gaza. We talked about the situation there. He was very friendly. I asked him how comes we never see on television channels reporting from Gaza any Hamas people, no gunmen, no rocket launcher, no policemen.. We only see civilians on these reports, mostly women and children. He answered me frankly : "it's very simple, we did see Hamas people there launching rockets, they were close to our hotel, but if ever we dare pointing our camera on them they would simply shoot at us and kill us." Wooh, impressive. Then I asked him "would you mind saying that on camera? I can film you explaining this..." For some reason I cannot really understand he refused and almost ran away. I guess my camera is as dangerous as Hamas threats... So just for you to know, the truth will never appear on the images you see on television.
That said, about the video march in Israel....it matters because the extreme right-wing is who is in charge in Israel, and those people are Netanyahu's constituency. It also matters because what they are saying is actually happening. Arabs in many countries may call for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish state, but it isn't actually happening. That's why I feel the video is significant, because those people in the march are WELL represented in the Israeli government.
No, that's completely false claim by your side. Israel current government consist many parties, from the left like Tzipi Livni and Yair Lapid and from the right like the HaBait Hayehudi, which are the most right-winged party in the government, yet even them do not support such hideous calls as you saw in the video - To think that some idiotic football fans mob who are calling those retarded calls are the official stance of the government of Israel is just detached from reality, though I see how it can serve well anti-Israel propoganda.
On another note, recently there were elections to the EU where a lot of Neo-Nazi parties got relatively a lot of votes and are represented in the EU, what does it make of the EU?
The Palestinians are blockaded into an area the size of the District of Columbia and are dependent on Israel for everything they are "allowed" to have. A Israeli official last year bragged about putting the people in Gaza on a diet, referring to how they were rationing the food allowed in, and calculating it so that it was pretty much just enough so the Palestinians won't starve to death.
The Palestinians are far from starve to death in Gaza and I don't know who is this 'official', there are always some idiots who cant control their mouth, but it is far from any Israeli position stance regarding Gaza, you can always nitpick a quote of someone radical and use it as it suit you, on both sites.
Have you ever questioned yourself WHY there is 'blockade' on Gaza? because Hamas took over and start rearming itself with rockets and anti-tank, AA missiles you name it. Right now all shipment in and out of Gaza are inspected in Ashdod and from it shipped, there is no restriction on things like food or medicine, or basically things that are not weaponry.
There was a restriction on cement until 2012, but this restriction was lifted and what did Hamas did with it? Build Tunnel towards Israeli communities! with that amount of cement it could be built schools, hospitals and infrastructure. Those Tunnels sole purpose is to infiltrate Israel, kill and kidnap Israeli civilians back into Gaza. In the name of the 'resistance'...
Tunnel built by Hamas:
And if you mentioned Palestinians who starve, in Syria 18,000 Palestinians starved to death in 3 years of conflict, yet the world doesn't seem to make a fuzz about it.
And last thing regarding this subject, here is Gaza market amid a humanitarian cease fire:
Finally, I want to take a look at a few pictures, this is the end result of a Hamas rocket:
Here is the result of a Israeli rocket:
Those pictures are very ignorant, sorry to say. Go ask the two bedouin sisters at ages 11 and 13 who got seriously injured near Be'er Sheva what is the end result of Hamas rocket, or maybe the 9 Palestinians children who got killed by Hamas miss fire at the refugee camp a-shati? or the 3 year old Palestinian girl who got killed by Hamas falling short rocket at the beginning of the conflict.
Don't try to belittle their damage, you wouldn't be volunteering to stand near one of them when they explode.
Now, it's possible that Israel is telling the truth when they say that they are trying to avoid civilian casualties as best they can, and that the astonishing amounts of Palestinian deaths is simply a result of them being perhaps the most inept military on the face of the Earth. Or it could be that this is entirely intentional in many respects, that this is in fact a "lesson" for electing Hamas to a leadership position, which is what I tend to believe.
The UN get their death toll directly from Hamas, who's best Interest is to show the world that many of them are civilians. In operation Cast Lead the UN showed same figures, in 2010 Hamas admitted that he lost ~700 member unlike the UN report.
IDF so far suffered 56 casualties, those casualties are not coming from thin air, there are fierce battles with a lot of Hamas squads in the outskirts of Gaza, even without any official numbers it is safe to assume that out of the total Palestinians casualties there are hundreds of militias from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Islamic groups, yet you don't hear it on BBC I guess.
Israel doesn't try to punish the population regardless what you think, Its the best interest of Israel to have thriving Gaza, this wars contribute to no side. I think that Hamas is the punishment for its population. Israel started this operation only because Hamas started to fire rockets all around Israel. In fact Hamas started this round because a Palestinians Internal conflict with the Fatah, over unpaid wages..
If you still in doubt, let me quote Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, who know a thing or two about warfare, addressing operation Cast Lead in 2008:
"IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare."
In the end, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are recognized terror organization in both EU and USA along with Al-Qaeda and ISIS with radical Islamic ideology ( Just read their charter, google it ), Nothing good will come out of Gaza as long as they are in power.
This is going to be my final post on the subject as it is going to get too toxic to continue on these polite and wonderful forums.
You post pictures of Israeli soldiers and soldier's families mourning their deaths. There deaths are tragic but they are SOLDIERS. Part of the reason a distinction of soldier exists is that they engage in combat and are legitimate targets. Palestinian children don't fall into the same box. Furthermore, what I take from your posting of those photos is that only Israeli lives matter, and that is the general feeling I get from everyone on your side of the argument. That one Israeli solider is a bigger loss than an infinite number of Palestinians, and that is because the West and it's media have reduced this population to sub-human in most people's eyes. Nothing more than snakes and vermin to be exterminated so they don't grow up to be "terrorists".
My sympathy for the Israeli military is next to nothing after two stories I read today. One was an interview with a Palestinian graduate student here in the US who told the story of his two brothers and father in the last major conflict, Cast Lead. They were trying to drive to a shelter during one of the humanitarian ceasefires. After they were wave through a check point, they drove roughly half a kilometer before a group of Israeli soldiers hiding in a house opened fire on them for no reason. When one of the sons got out to run he was shot 18 times. The father, injured begged them to let him call for help for his other son, who was clinging to life, shivering and cold in his final moments. The Israeli soldiers provided nothing, not even a blanket for the dying young man they had just murdered in cold blood.
The other is a story revealed today about a former Israeli solider who is now a international peace activist. He reported in the past few days that he has been in contact with former fellow soldiers who are taking up sniper positions and killing Palestinians who are searching through rubble looking for the corpses of their dead family members. In every interview with journalists in Gaza you hear a constant buzzing permeating the air. It is the Israeli drones patrolling the skies, 24/7, ready to shoot and kill anyone at a moments notice.
Which brings me to the definition of that word "terrorist". It's designed to be completely devoid of any meaning. It's a word that Western countries (mostly US and Israel) use to end debate on any subject or conflict and to justify any action they take afterwards. We sitting here in our comfortable homes, towns, cities and suburbs in the US, Canada, Western Europe and the like have no inkling of what it is like to live in such hopeless and deplorable living conditions as the population of Gaza. We have no threats in our daily life, no idea what it means to be truly without hope. We are winners of a cosmic lottery who but for the grace of god could have been born into these same hellish situations. I'm reminded that a few posts back that someone mentioned that one of their main problems with the Palestinians is how much they "wail"....as in how they cry in torture and agony when their children are blown to pieces while they are on a swing set. We apparently like to think we would act differently and hold up better in similar situations, but the fact is that you would "wail" as well, because it is what any normal feeling person does when human life is being extinguished on this level. I just sense a complete lack of any empathy in many of these posts, and I can't participate in this particular discussion any longer, since it will do nothing but create bad blood. While I could post many pictures analogous to the ones previously offered of Israeli military deaths, I'm afraid the pictures of the dead Palestinian children would violate some sort of code of conduct here, and I'm just not going to do it, search them out yourself if you are so inclined. I'll leave you with just one more, proof that even a tiny miracle that survived one part of this madness couldn't overcome for long.
Again, I've enjoyed debating this, but for me, it's just getting too emotional and we have a good community here that I won't play any part in tearing apart because of disagreements.
You do know Israel has mandatory conscription? Which means EVERYONE is a soldier for sometime in Israel. It is like that due to the threat of their neighbors. It doesn't diminish their families suffering more because they are forced to serve to protect their country.
Your story in the second paragraph needs to taken with a grain of salt again. How does he know they are Israel soldiers? It has been reported terrorist counterfeit and steal Israeli uniforms. How do you know he is even telling the truth?
And can you please link to the second story, because I am finding that extremely difficult to believe.
And no terrorist and terrorism have meaning. 1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes. 2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization 3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government
Hamas terrorizes it's own people. This has been explained above in previous posts. Hamas terrorizes Israel on a daily basis with rocket attacks as well as planned (but thwarted) tunneling. They are the definition of terrorist that will not stop their actions as long as they exist. They will use any means, including the Palestinian population to get what they want. They are the ones that need to be replaced and stop their actions for Gaza to live in peace.
As a former soldier myself I can tell you that, drafted or not, you take the loss of someone in your unit VERY hard. These are people you train beside, live with, fight with, work with and party with. They become as close to you as family. Do you imagine it's any easier for a family just because their son or daughter was a soldier?! You know NOTHING about loss until you've sat with a family who's son was just killed. Especially when he was your friend and brother as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if the IDF statement about Hamas accidentally rocketing their own park was true, they are terrorist. Half trained, given weapons they don't understand to go off and shoot Israelis with. This was bound to happen sooner or later.
Besides, both sides have been wronged, war will kill the innocent, it's a fact. Sad but true. But I do feel the Israelis are in the right here. Hamas have terrorized them, provoked them, shot, mortared, rocketed and bombed them. Then when they do something to protect themselves, Hamas goes 'Oh look! LOOK AT WHAT THE ISRAELIS DO!! Animals!!'
@Sergio you said it Israel fault but it isn't, you know that the Hamas build over 200 tunnels to Israel territory just so they could come at the new year of the Jewish (that is around two months from now) so they can murder and take captives a lot of Israelis and if that incident with the three kids wouldn't have happen the Israelis wouldn't have find out about those tunnels and then there was a nation slaughter. So don't say they didn't wanna use those rockets because they were just waiting for the right time which for them was the new year when the Israelis are low on defense.
Israel didn't take it properly and suddenly he called Hamas at fault.
Not to mention that Hamas didn't take it properly but STILL he didn't turn against Israel. The turning point was when some missiles were launched from Palestina to Israel, and Israel answered with force and aimed on a "Hamas" Target that was near the rocket launcher. The problem is, that Hamas promised he would never launch a rocket again and that he would do everything to avoid it. The truth is that Israel aimed at that target from Hamas that really was trying to avoid the mess, and was the person in charge to avoid the missiles launch. And he was really trying to avoid it.
Here is the list of rockets fired towards Israel in 2014 alone ( as you can see, there they firing through the all year, way before this round of escalation ):
The Hamas never said they will never launch rockets again, its contradict the fact that they have manufactured and equipped themselves with thousands of rockets over the years ( estimated 10,000 rockets before the operation ).
The turning point was after Hamas repeatedly continue to fire and Netanyahu gave 48 hours ultimatum to Hamas to stop with " silence will be met with silence". and even then there was no a ground offensive. the ground offensive started only after an infiltration of 13 Hamas members from a tunnel only hundred of meters from the Israeli Community ( Kibutz ) Kisufim. On later infiltrations the IDF found tranquilizers, handcuffs and syringes on dead Hamas members, along with suicide belts. only then the IDF realized the nature of the threat and launched a limited ground offensive to destroy those tunnels.
Israels doing what they have to do. Hamas make me sick.
On a random side note, just saw this in the Courier Mail, are we at a point now where the name 'Climate change' needs to go, because it is to set in peoples minds as a 'cut gas emissions, stop carbon' type deal? It appears the damage, whether we are responsible or not, is done. We need to do something about it.
It appears the damage, whether we are responsible or not, is done. We need to do something about it.
Actually, we don't *need* to do anything except adjust to whatever the new norm will be. Personally, I am looking forward to the changes but then I concern myself with the *real* problems we have like institutional corruption and wars without end. Climate/weather problems are a relatively minor issue compared to those and should not be our primary concern needing to be resolved.
************* I told you cease fires wouldn't last.
Actually, we don't *need* to do anything except adjust to whatever the new norm will be. Personally, I am looking forward to the changes but then I concern myself with the *real* problems we have like institutional corruption and wars without end. Climate/weather problems are a relatively minor issue compared to those and should not be our primary concern needing to be resolved.
That depends a lot on where you live. If you live in Africa, I imagine the effects of global warming will feel like a "real problem".
I don't want to touch the politics of the ongoing Gaza conflict with a barge pole. Allocating blame is something to do a lot later, with the help of a UN war crimes tribunal. The real crisis is a humanitarian one, disproportionately affecting Palestinian civilians.
That depends a lot on where you live. If you live in Africa, I imagine the effects of global warming will feel like a "real problem".
Climate change is a real problem when compared to ethnic violence or corrupt national governments who care only about lining their own pockets with money and donated aid rather than making sure their citizens have a relatively safe environment in which raise their families? Really?
I would rather have the absolute worst case scenarios people think we are going to have vis-a-vis climate/weather than to have a corrupt government, be ruled by a warlord, or have to sleep in watches because some people from the next town over are going to sneak in and try to kill us in the middle of the night. Priorities....
That depends a lot on where you live. If you live in Africa, I imagine the effects of global warming will feel like a "real problem".
Climate change is a real problem when compared to ethnic violence or corrupt national governments who care only about lining their own pockets with money and donated aid rather than making sure their citizens have a relatively safe environment in which raise their families? Really?
I would rather have the absolute worst case scenarios people think we are going to have vis-a-vis climate/weather than to have a corrupt government, be ruled by a warlord, or have to sleep in watches because some people from the next town over are going to sneak in and try to kill us in the middle of the night. Priorities....
I'm under the impression that global warming threatens to make currently inhabited places in Africa un-livable (primarily from lack of water I believe). So yeah, no matter how difficult it is to live in some places right now, I imagine not being able to live there at all would still seem like a pressing issue. And even if global warming doesn't make it completely uninhabitable, I imagine a water shortage would exacerbate the existing problems.
And really, I'm not saying that people living in those areas should be personally worried about - or acting on - global warming. I'm saying that just because it won't necessarily be a big deal where you live doesn't make it appropriate to write global warming as no big deal in general.
Comments
The West Bank is controlled by Abu-Mazen and the Fatah, Supported by Saudia Arabia, Egypt, UAE.
Gaza Strip is controlled by Hamas, supported by Iran, Qatar and Turkey.
Hamas are direct rival of the Fatah ( they actually took over Gaza strip from the Fatah, executed them and threw them from 7 story buildings )
Also Egypt and Saudi Arabia are fierce rival of Qatar and Turkey, to say the least.. fighting over influence on the Middle east.
While the Fatah are in doubt more devoted for two state solution, Hamas is devoted to the destruction and obliteration of Israel, and establishing an Islamic state all over the region ( much like ISIS in Iraq ).
so... just sit and talk?
I wish I were wrong about it but everything I see and read about it tells me that I am not. As I noted, this fight is *personal*--I want to kill you because your grandfather killed my grandfather and you want to kill me because my father killed your father and so on and so forth.
I do have unfortunate news for the Palestinians, though--ultimately they will lose. Not only do they not have the support of other Muslim nations, some of whom couldn't care less what happens to the Palestinians, but the philosophical foundation driving the Israeli response is "never again" and that is a philosophy whose motivating power is not to be underestimated.
I support neither side because neither side is willing to listen to reason--they are both wrong.
Yes, Israel has to live with the threat of Hamas rocket attacks, but most of Hamas' rockets don't even make it across. Let's not compare Hamas' practically homemade missiles to the state of the art technological terrors that Israel is able to respond with, not to mention their Iron Dome defense system which knocks most of them out of the air (and thank god for that). The Palestinian people have no such protections or advanced technology. The only power plant in Gaza was destroyed yesterday, they barely have any running water and their hospitals are getting blown up.
And let me be clear, whatever Hamas is aiming for is idiocy, as they will NEVER, in a million years, win a war of attrition with Israel, who has the full and unquestioning backing of the largest military power in the world. They should stop firing rockets immediately, but we all know that isn't going to happen.
Religion can be a wonderful and beneficial thing but it can also be a pretty bloody serious curse.
Hamas and the Palestinians brought this on themselves, they know the Israelis are exceedingly capable and willing to fight, why keep provoking them? Israel does what it can to minimize civilian casualties, I mean really, if someone told me that 2 Kfir's with 11 tons of bombs on board are going to hit my street in 15 minutes I would be gone. Very gone, on foot. I can cover a fair distance in 15 minutes when someone wants to bomb me. Not to mention that broadcasting this information puts their own flight crew and soldiers in EXTREME danger themselves. . .
I am going to lob some stones at the windows of your house to attempt to break them. You invented, with one of your closest friends, a devise that has a 90% chance of stopping the rocks at midflight and falling harmlessly to the ground. However every time you use the device, you have to pay $100.
I am going to continue throwing rocks until all of your windows are broken, regardless of any concessions you might be willing to give to me.
How much money and/or windows are you willing to lose before you come out of your house and punch me in the face?
And I won't run out of rocks because all of your neighbors are supplying them to me at a low cost. They might not win. But their goal is get global opinion of Israel extremely low so that other nations would find it feasible to allow other countries like Iran to declare war on them to stop the atrocities they are committing against the unfortunate Palestinian people.
Recently there are many Anti-Semite protests in France, Germany and England with some horrible slogans, does it means that those countries or their government are anti-Semite ??
Again, Hamas got billions of dollars foreign aid, BILLIONS!
did it go to "medical care and clean water"? no
did it go to infrastructure such as sewage and water systems? no
by the way, the fortune of Haled Mashal and Abu Marzuk, the leaders of Hamas , is estimated in billion of dollars each. Ismail Haniya has only ~4 million dollars.
The last thing that Hamas care is it's population welfare. All the Medical aid and food comes from Israel, even during this conflict Israel continue to send trucks with food and medicine into Gaza.
Israel has even opened field hospital near the borders to treat Palestinians - yet Hamas prevent them from going there. I always hear about "Netanyahu is a warmonger", yet it turns out that he is the most passive PM of Israel in the last decade, The Hamas fired rockets into Israel for almost a week before Israel decided to respond. 200 rockets towards Israel with no what so ever response, "Silence will be met with Silence" Netanyahu said. Even after that, it took him nearly a week until he decided to start a limited ground operation, after seeing Hamas just keep shooting, and right now he still not willing in any way to expand it, he only strive to reach a cease fire.
That said, about the video march in Israel....it matters because the extreme right-wing is who is in charge in Israel, and those people are Netanyahu's constituency. It also matters because what they are saying is actually happening. Arabs in many countries may call for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish state, but it isn't actually happening. That's why I feel the video is significant, because those people in the march are WELL represented in the Israeli government. The Palestinians are blockaded into an area the size of the District of Columbia and are dependent on Israel for everything they are "allowed" to have. A Israeli official last year bragged about putting the people in Gaza on a diet, referring to how they were rationing the food allowed in, and calculating it so that it was pretty much just enough so the Palestinians won't starve to death.
Finally, I want to take a look at a few pictures, this is the end result of a Hamas rocket:
Here is the result of a Israeli rocket:
And finally, a graph detailing the casualties:
Now, it's possible that Israel is telling the truth when they say that they are trying to avoid civilian casualties as best they can, and that the astonishing amounts of Palestinian deaths is simply a result of them being perhaps the most inept military on the face of the Earth. Or it could be that this is entirely intentional in many respects, that this is in fact a "lesson" for electing Hamas to a leadership position, which is what I tend to believe. At this point it is nothing but a slaughter.
Israelis soldiers standing of the memory of 3 more soldiers who die that mean 56 Israelis soldiers die since it all began
Family that lost there son in this war
"In the amount of the cement it was possible to build two hospitals ". One cancelers of the tunnels that were exposed
Listen to that:
Furthermore, UNRWA itself claimed that they found rockets in their schools, for the 3rd time! Hamas is firing from schools, hospitals and other populated areas, there are enough evidence for that and its a complete fact, even Hamas say it serves his cause.
Just today 3 IDF soldiers were killed when they have entered UNRWA clinic, which was booby-trapped and explode upon damn, UNRWA Clinic.
Also BBC is biased and selective, all it shows is how much the Gaza civilians suffers, there is no deny that they are greatly suffer and miserable, yet BBC doesn't show the context of the situation. Haven't you asked yourself why there are no what so ever pictures of Hamas militants in Gaza? only civilians?? You can almost think that the IDF is fighting ghosts.
The reporters in Gaza can't report the whole story in Gaza, because Hamas won't let them, and that's all the information that you get, just a quick example, an Italian reporter who went out of Gaza: Notice the 'retaliation', that's what the reporters in Gaza are facing, therefor they are reporting only one side of the conflict.
also see this post:
https://www.facebook.com/michael.grynszpan/posts/10152140390486065 No, that's completely false claim by your side. Israel current government consist many parties, from the left like Tzipi Livni and Yair Lapid and from the right like the HaBait Hayehudi, which are the most right-winged party in the government, yet even them do not support such hideous calls as you saw in the video - To think that some idiotic football fans mob who are calling those retarded calls are the official stance of the government of Israel is just detached from reality, though I see how it can serve well anti-Israel propoganda.
On another note, recently there were elections to the EU where a lot of Neo-Nazi parties got relatively a lot of votes and are represented in the EU, what does it make of the EU? The Palestinians are far from starve to death in Gaza and I don't know who is this 'official', there are always some idiots who cant control their mouth, but it is far from any Israeli position stance regarding Gaza, you can always nitpick a quote of someone radical and use it as it suit you, on both sites.
Have you ever questioned yourself WHY there is 'blockade' on Gaza? because Hamas took over and start rearming itself with rockets and anti-tank, AA missiles you name it. Right now all shipment in and out of Gaza are inspected in Ashdod and from it shipped, there is no restriction on things like food or medicine, or basically things that are not weaponry.
There was a restriction on cement until 2012, but this restriction was lifted and what did Hamas did with it?
Build Tunnel towards Israeli communities! with that amount of cement it could be built schools, hospitals and infrastructure. Those Tunnels sole purpose is to infiltrate Israel, kill and kidnap Israeli civilians back into Gaza. In the name of the 'resistance'...
Tunnel built by Hamas:
And if you mentioned Palestinians who starve, in Syria 18,000 Palestinians starved to death in 3 years of conflict, yet the world doesn't seem to make a fuzz about it.
And last thing regarding this subject, here is Gaza market amid a humanitarian cease fire:
Don't try to belittle their damage, you wouldn't be volunteering to stand near one of them when they explode.
The UN get their death toll directly from Hamas, who's best Interest is to show the world that many of them are civilians. In operation Cast Lead the UN showed same figures, in 2010 Hamas admitted that he lost ~700 member unlike the UN report.
IDF so far suffered 56 casualties, those casualties are not coming from thin air, there are fierce battles with a lot of Hamas squads in the outskirts of Gaza, even without any official numbers it is safe to assume that out of the total Palestinians casualties there are hundreds of militias from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Islamic groups, yet you don't hear it on BBC I guess.
Israel doesn't try to punish the population regardless what you think, Its the best interest of Israel to have thriving Gaza, this wars contribute to no side. I think that Hamas is the punishment for its population. Israel started this operation only because Hamas started to fire rockets all around Israel. In fact Hamas started this round because a Palestinians Internal conflict with the Fatah, over unpaid wages..
If you still in doubt, let me quote Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, who know a thing or two about warfare, addressing operation Cast Lead in 2008: In the end, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are recognized terror organization in both EU and USA along with Al-Qaeda and ISIS with radical Islamic ideology ( Just read their charter, google it ), Nothing good will come out of Gaza as long as they are in power.
You post pictures of Israeli soldiers and soldier's families mourning their deaths. There deaths are tragic but they are SOLDIERS. Part of the reason a distinction of soldier exists is that they engage in combat and are legitimate targets. Palestinian children don't fall into the same box. Furthermore, what I take from your posting of those photos is that only Israeli lives matter, and that is the general feeling I get from everyone on your side of the argument. That one Israeli solider is a bigger loss than an infinite number of Palestinians, and that is because the West and it's media have reduced this population to sub-human in most people's eyes. Nothing more than snakes and vermin to be exterminated so they don't grow up to be "terrorists".
My sympathy for the Israeli military is next to nothing after two stories I read today. One was an interview with a Palestinian graduate student here in the US who told the story of his two brothers and father in the last major conflict, Cast Lead. They were trying to drive to a shelter during one of the humanitarian ceasefires. After they were wave through a check point, they drove roughly half a kilometer before a group of Israeli soldiers hiding in a house opened fire on them for no reason. When one of the sons got out to run he was shot 18 times. The father, injured begged them to let him call for help for his other son, who was clinging to life, shivering and cold in his final moments. The Israeli soldiers provided nothing, not even a blanket for the dying young man they had just murdered in cold blood.
The other is a story revealed today about a former Israeli solider who is now a international peace activist. He reported in the past few days that he has been in contact with former fellow soldiers who are taking up sniper positions and killing Palestinians who are searching through rubble looking for the corpses of their dead family members. In every interview with journalists in Gaza you hear a constant buzzing permeating the air. It is the Israeli drones patrolling the skies, 24/7, ready to shoot and kill anyone at a moments notice.
Which brings me to the definition of that word "terrorist". It's designed to be completely devoid of any meaning. It's a word that Western countries (mostly US and Israel) use to end debate on any subject or conflict and to justify any action they take afterwards. We sitting here in our comfortable homes, towns, cities and suburbs in the US, Canada, Western Europe and the like have no inkling of what it is like to live in such hopeless and deplorable living conditions as the population of Gaza. We have no threats in our daily life, no idea what it means to be truly without hope. We are winners of a cosmic lottery who but for the grace of god could have been born into these same hellish situations. I'm reminded that a few posts back that someone mentioned that one of their main problems with the Palestinians is how much they "wail"....as in how they cry in torture and agony when their children are blown to pieces while they are on a swing set. We apparently like to think we would act differently and hold up better in similar situations, but the fact is that you would "wail" as well, because it is what any normal feeling person does when human life is being extinguished on this level. I just sense a complete lack of any empathy in many of these posts, and I can't participate in this particular discussion any longer, since it will do nothing but create bad blood. While I could post many pictures analogous to the ones previously offered of Israeli military deaths, I'm afraid the pictures of the dead Palestinian children would violate some sort of code of conduct here, and I'm just not going to do it, search them out yourself if you are so inclined. I'll leave you with just one more, proof that even a tiny miracle that survived one part of this madness couldn't overcome for long.
Again, I've enjoyed debating this, but for me, it's just getting too emotional and we have a good community here that I won't play any part in tearing apart because of disagreements.
Your story in the second paragraph needs to taken with a grain of salt again. How does he know they are Israel soldiers? It has been reported terrorist counterfeit and steal Israeli uniforms. How do you know he is even telling the truth?
And can you please link to the second story, because I am finding that extremely difficult to believe.
And no terrorist and terrorism have meaning.
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government
Hamas terrorizes it's own people. This has been explained above in previous posts. Hamas terrorizes Israel on a daily basis with rocket attacks as well as planned (but thwarted) tunneling. They are the definition of terrorist that will not stop their actions as long as they exist. They will use any means, including the Palestinian population to get what they want. They are the ones that need to be replaced and stop their actions for Gaza to live in peace.
I wouldn't be surprised if the IDF statement about Hamas accidentally rocketing their own park was true, they are terrorist. Half trained, given weapons they don't understand to go off and shoot Israelis with. This was bound to happen sooner or later.
Besides, both sides have been wronged, war will kill the innocent, it's a fact. Sad but true. But I do feel the Israelis are in the right here. Hamas have terrorized them, provoked them, shot, mortared, rocketed and bombed them. Then when they do something to protect themselves, Hamas goes 'Oh look! LOOK AT WHAT THE ISRAELIS DO!! Animals!!'
Drives me nuts that people believe them. >:/
The explosion on the hospital
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014
The Hamas never said they will never launch rockets again, its contradict the fact that they have manufactured and equipped themselves with thousands of rockets over the years ( estimated 10,000 rockets before the operation ).
The turning point was after Hamas repeatedly continue to fire and Netanyahu gave 48 hours ultimatum to Hamas to stop with " silence will be met with silence". and even then there was no a ground offensive. the ground offensive started only after an infiltration of 13 Hamas members from a tunnel only hundred of meters from the Israeli Community ( Kibutz ) Kisufim. On later infiltrations the IDF found tranquilizers, handcuffs and syringes on dead Hamas members, along with suicide belts. only then the IDF realized the nature of the threat and launched a limited ground offensive to destroy those tunnels.
Edit: From today, just to emphasize Hamas cruelty towards Gaza population:
On a random side note, just saw this in the Courier Mail, are we at a point now where the name 'Climate change' needs to go, because it is to set in peoples minds as a 'cut gas emissions, stop carbon' type deal?
It appears the damage, whether we are responsible or not, is done. We need to do something about it.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/are-siberias-methane-blowholes-the-first-warning-sign-of-unstoppable-climate-change/story-fnjwvztl-1227006746397
This isn't going to end well, another proof why you should not talk with terrorist organizations. Such a disgrace.
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I told you cease fires wouldn't last.
I would rather have the absolute worst case scenarios people think we are going to have vis-a-vis climate/weather than to have a corrupt government, be ruled by a warlord, or have to sleep in watches because some people from the next town over are going to sneak in and try to kill us in the middle of the night. Priorities....
And really, I'm not saying that people living in those areas should be personally worried about - or acting on - global warming. I'm saying that just because it won't necessarily be a big deal where you live doesn't make it appropriate to write global warming as no big deal in general.