scotland is different because it is a constituency that CAN secede legally and that binds people there in a polity which is called upon to vote on the issue. when you don't show up you can't say "i boycotted". you not showing up only means that you didn't show up, and you're happy with letting other people decide. incidenally turnout in scotland was astronomical compared to catalonia because there isn't this crisis of legitimacy
As I said previously Scotland was only different because the UK government agreed to make it so. The law was changed in 2013 to allow a referendum to take place (previously the UK constitution was a reserved matter for the UK government, in the same way as the Spanish constitution is a reserved matter for the Spanish government). If a national government refuses to engage in debate legally with a significant part of its country (and Catalonia is 50% larger than Scotland) then it's hardly surprising if they seek extra-judicial means to promote the debate.
Anyway...apparently hotel staff entered the room before the event and did not notice anything out of the ordinary. Presumably, he had all the weapons in bags in the closet so they wouldn't have seen anything.
Again, I have to ask: what sort of law would have stopped a person with ample money, no history of violence, no history of mental illness, and no history of substance abuse from purchasing all these weapons?
The more we hear about what this guy was able to do, the more it becomes clear. We simply cannot remain a sane country and allow people access to weapons of mass murder, which is ALL an assault rifle is good for. At this point we are sacrificing the lives of hundreds of people a year to cater to gun manufacturers and gun fetishists.
The more we hear about what this guy was able to do, the more it becomes clear. We simply cannot remain a sane country and allow people access to weapons of mass murder, which is ALL an assault rifle is good for. At this point we are sacrificing the lives of hundreds of people a year to cater to gun manufacturers and gun fetishists.
Conservatives politicians be like "we can't take away their freedom!" for the NRA pays millions or dollars a year to their campaigns.
Even conservative people are for sensible regulations like not allowing the mentally ill to get assault weapons. Doesn't matter, Obama something something so Trump repealed that restriction. That should be a no-brainer but hey no-brainer indeed Trump can't stand it because his Republican party corporate masters said so.
But wait, this guy in Vegas didn't have a history or mental problems you say. I'm sure when he bought the first couple guns he was not insane and passed whatever weak background check there is in Nevada, but yesterday, he was insane. Oopsie hundreds of people shot for that mistake.
Maybe we shouldn't have assault weapons of mass destruction available to everybody. Because sometimes people are going to have bad days and if there's a gun they can reach then things can get really bad really quickly. Sure, they could get a knife or a car but it's just not as easy and potential for mass casualties as assault weapon guns.
The more we hear about what this guy was able to do, the more it becomes clear. We simply cannot remain a sane country and allow people access to weapons of mass murder, which is ALL an assault rifle is good for. At this point we are sacrificing the lives of hundreds of people a year to cater to gun manufacturers and gun fetishists.
Conservatives politicians be like "we can't take away their freedom!" for the NRA pays millions or dollars a year to their campaigns.
Even conservative people are for sensible regulations like not allowing the mentally ill to get assault weapons. Doesn't matter, Obama something something so Trump repealed that restriction. That should be a no-brainer but hey no-brainer indeed Trump can't stand it because his Republican party corporate masters said so.
But wait, this guy in Vegas didn't have a history or mental problems you say. I'm sure when he bought the first couple guns he was not insane and passed whatever weak background check there is in Nevada, but yesterday, he was insane. Oopsie hundreds of people shot for that mistake.
Maybe we shouldn't have assault weapons of mass destruction available to everybody. Because sometimes people are going to have bad days and if there's a gun they can reach then things can get really bad really quickly. Sure, they could get a knife or a car but it's just not as easy and potential for mass casualties as assault weapon guns.
Surely there has to be a line SOMEWHERE when it comes to weaponry that can be openly bought by citizens. Even if you take the 2nd Amendment on it's face, it doesn't say "the righ of the people to bear ALL TYPES of arms". I don't think we allow people to buy grenade launchers or tactical nukes.
A law that severely limits the availability of lethal weapons, like they have in most other countries.
Yes, but that didn't answer the question. Do you mean an absolute ban on certain types of guns? At this point, that would seem to be the only type of law which could have prevented this incident. How would such a law deal with people who already own such guns? How do you stop them from selling them to someone else for cash at the storage unit where the guns are stored?
The point I am making is that you can't just say "ban all guns", pass a law banning them (or certain types of them), then think the problem is solved. Chicago has very strict gun control laws and people may still purchase guns legally there.
A law that severely limits the availability of lethal weapons, like they have in most other countries.
Yes, but that didn't answer the question. Do you mean an absolute ban on certain types of guns? At this point, that would seem to be the only type of law which could have prevented this incident. How would such a law deal with people who already own such guns? How do you stop them from selling them to someone else for cash at the storage unit where the guns are stored?
The point I am making is that you can't just say "ban all guns", pass a law banning them (or certain types of them), then think the problem is solved. Chicago has very strict gun control laws and people may still purchase guns legally there.
The reasons Chicago's gun control laws haven't been effective is because (and I've made this point several times) they are right next door to Indiana, which has some of the most permissive gun laws in the country. And border traffic between Chicago and Indiana is heavy and constant. Try as a state or city MIGHT to implement gun control measures, it doesn't do a lick of good when your neighboring state is basically the Wild West as far as gun sales go. A state you need to look at for effective gun control is Hawaii, and, by some miracle, it works there. Because you can't just drive in guns to Hawaii from Montana or Idaho.
I just got home and was actually able to watch some of the cell phone video from this incident. That guy was shooting for almost 45 minutes. I just read a sobering stat that there were more casualties in this incident than at the battle of Lexington or Concord in the American Revolution. This is insane. If this is the kind of country people want to live in, well, that's fine I guess, but there can't be any shock or indignation when this happens again, and again, and again, and again. As it will. I wouldn't be surprised if something else similar took place this week or this month, before the media has even moved on from this one.
Of course, we won't do anything. There is a better chance of Donald Trump advocating to have Barack Obama replace George Washington on Mt. Rushmore than the Republican Congress moving even one centimeter on gun control. If anything other than "thoughts and prayers" are offered, I swear to god I will eat the laptop I am typing this on. But what SHOULD we do?? Should we ban all guns?? Of course not, but we SHOULD ban anything remotely like whatever the hell this guy was using. Because if this is allowed to stand, then any single individual in this country can turn any PLACE in this country (as we've seen, work, movie theaters, churches, schools, concerts, malls etc etc etc) into a goddamn warzone. If this is anyone's idea of "freedom", then I guess freedom doesn't mean much. Liberals don't want everyone's hunting rifles or handguns they keep in their bedroom. But yeah, I want every single assault rifle off the streets of this country.
I guess they need to put TSA-like agents with X-ray machines in all the hotels and screen bags before they go up to the rooms. Metal detectors and scanners at all the hotel entrances.
We go to Disneyland a half-dozen times a year and it's been interesting to watch their security evolve. Post 9/11 they started bag checks before you could get into the actual parks. They later added metal detectors. Now they've moved the screening area to the parking garage and entrances to Downtown Disney. You can't go to the movies, get a bite, go shopping without being screened. I imagine at some point they'll move the screening to the resort hotel entrances.
In perhaps one of the stupider aspects of the aftermath to this, ISIS was quick to claim responsibility for this attack, until it became almost immediately apparent that that narrative was nonsense (though it didn't stop the far-right portions of the internet from spreading the misinformation as far and wide was possible). But it brings up a salient point, which is that it calls into question the validity of every time ISIS claimed responsibility for attacks in the last few years, and from this point forward. It always at least somewhat seemed as if they were attaching themselves to massacres after the fact. Now we can conclusively say they have done so. There is no reason to think they haven't also been doing so in the majority of the shootings involving Muslims in the US and Europe the last few years.
In fact, it's entirely possible this worked in reverse, with ISIS buying into the Alt-right propaganda being spread on 4chan overnight about this shooting being perpetrated by Muslim extremists, and rushing to take credit.
Also, I think this post by Josh Marshall (who I know I quote often, but I find insightful and fair) sums up how alot of liberals feel when these shootings take place. I freely admit alot of these thoughts go through my own head:
Who was the suspect? I hoped it wasn’t a Muslim. I also hoped it wasn’t an African-American man. Obviously, the identity of the shooter doesn’t make anyone more dead or alive. For the particular crime, the identity and even the motive is basically irrelevant. As a journalist, I shouldn’t really ‘hope’ it is or is not anyone. It is whatever it is. Is this liberal guilt or race fixation? I don’t think so. I do so for a pretty simple reason: mass violence by Muslims or black men are immediately political – and wrapped into storylines they have relatively little connection to – whereas as mass violence by whites just is. They are individual acts and unfathomable, no more addressable by policy or societal action than the obvious and inevitable fact that we will all one day die.
If the shooter is a Muslim or even more a Muslim immigrant, the attack is “terrorism” and even more than that it becomes enrolled into the catalog of threats to justify immigrant bans, surveilling or expulsion of Muslim immigrants, various military actions in the Middle East, new wars, scraping the Iran nuclear deal.
If it’s a black man it’s only slightly less political. It’s part of the rising tide of crime (statistically slightly true though greatly exaggerated) Jeff Sessions and President Trump use to inflame racial division and reignite the drug war and 80s era policing. It’s a violent turn for the rising tide of African-American protest ranging from taking a knee to protests in Ferguson and other cities.
If it is a white man, seemingly without religious views of any particular relevance to the crime or targeting people of a particular race, it’s just … a thing that happened and not something we can do anything about. It’s original sin. A troubled, distraught person. Just a crazed individual, someone who seemed normal and then went horribly wrong. Critically, it’s an individual story, isolated and untouchable by anything we can do as a society.
Let’s be honest with ourselves: when the shooter isn’t white the violence is often ‘terrorism’ and almost always political. That tells us a lot about racism and xenophobia in America. But fundamentally these are diversions. The problem is that America is the only country which is wealthy and not roiled by endemic civil conflict or war which regularly has mass gun massacres.
There are exceptions: explicitly racist murders by white men put a focus on racism. Dylann Roof’s 2015 black church massacre in Charleston, South Carolina permanently altered the debate over the Confederate flag in South Carolina. But these are the exceptions.
It’s certainly not like no one cares. Far from it. Everyone does. As I write, the whole country is in another of these spasms of shock and numbness. If you think part of the problem is guns, you’ve known since the Newtown massacre that literally no outrage is great enough for the country to rethink its march toward greater and greater freedom to arm yourself with more and more powerful weapons. We won’t even have a period of a few weeks in which there will be a push for new gun restrictions only to see it fail. Because we know no new law will be passed.
Fundamentally, we are stuck. All the massacres matter. But they’re only readily politicized along our existing paranoia about Muslim terrorists and white fears of black criminality. Since any action on guns is ruled out, we’re left with more or less emotive versions of “thoughts and prayers.” The easy availability of military style weapons is obvious and immediate cause of these massacres. Human nature contains violence, evil, senseless aggression. But that’s true in every country. We’re the only place where anything remotely like this happens on a regular basis.
But beyond guns – which are absolutely, absolutely necessary to address and dramatically restrict access to – we need to recognize that we don’t have mass violence only because of guns. We have so many guns because America is a deeply violent society. That goes back generations. We have recurrent massacres because we are awash in firearms and also because we are a deeply violent society. Nothing so deeply rooted in our culture can be easily changed. But we could change it. We cannot and do not because at the end of the day we accept it.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around these numbers. The 59 dead is bad enough, but this guy managed to INJURE 527 people. Which means he was able to shoot roughly 600 people before he was stopped. That is more than the entire population of the town I grew up in. This is way, WAY beyond any other modern shooting that has taken place before this one. For more context, 54 Americans were killed and 425 were wounded during the main phase of Fallujah in Nov 2004, the biggest battle of the Iraq War. What happened on the Vegas Strip was WORSE (at least for Americans) than a battle in the heart of Iraq.
The numbers are so high because he chose to target a tightly-grouped crowd at night using "spray and pray"--he wasn't aiming at anyone.
Events like this always seem shocking to Americans because we so coddled. We don't have daily instances like this, we don't have bombs blowing up in marketplaces every week, we don't have to keep one eye on the sky for drones, and we often don't have to worry about truck attacks. Still, we do need to quit being shocked. "How can this happen here?" *rolls eyes* It happens here because human beings are short-tempered, irrational, and sometimes prone to acting out violently without any apparent cause.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around these numbers. The 59 dead is bad enough, but this guy managed to INJURE 527 people. Which means he was able to shoot roughly 600 people before he was stopped. That is more than the entire population of the town I grew up in. This is way, WAY beyond any other modern shooting that has taken place before this one. For more context, 54 Americans were killed and 425 were wounded during the main phase of Fallujah in Nov 2004, the biggest battle of the Iraq War. What happened on the Vegas Strip was WORSE (at least for Americans) than a battle in the heart of Iraq.
Careful correlating injured to being shot. If someone broke their ankle attempting to get to cover that injury is still counted. Anything that is treated by paramedics, hospitals or other first responders is counted in the injury list. It doesn't have to come from a bullet.
This point doesn't diminish the brutality of the incident however, especially without a clear motive in which drove this person to commit the act.
My thoughts on the matter. Many guns and lot of ammo can fit in very few bags. I know this from experience.
Fully automatic guns are a bit harder to obtain. In NC, for ex. it takes a firearms dealer license to buy one. Now that;s possible but takes a little while. Full auto and assault rifle definitions have been misunderstood. Semi- auto (one pull, one shot) rifles are just as easy to buy as a shotgun at wal mart. Now many of these semi-auto rifles are made and decked out with many of the same features as fully automatic military grade weapons, but still one pull/one shot.
The ban we had years ago was so stupid it did nothing. All it did was word it so certain features could not be put on the same rifles. Still were one pull/ one shot. Same with high capacity magazines/ limit was set to ten rounds. Now some of the better ones ARE faster BUT still basically the same. This law did almost nothing.
Now, it was STILL legal after the ban to buy high capacity magazines and various parts and pieces IF they were made BEFORE the ban. 10 years after the ban I was still buying high capacity mags, even after pp; went hog wild buying all the old stuff rt before AND after the ban. Same with rifles. That's how many guns and gun parts we have here.
I have also been approached many a time at gun shows wanting to buy a gun outside the door with no license , and sell as well, with no $5 license from the sheriffs office. Never offered to sell.
As to FULLY automatic rifles, they can be gotten at 'trunk sales',AK-47's and SKS's mostly. Now the right people and it is possible.
Obvious this guy had some full auto,I knew just from first listening.
Anyway, it is a tough thing to deal with. I researched this for a year in my undergrad in public health degree, coming up with idea after idea, But it still came back to the stockpile of guns and ammo in this country. Gun show loopholes, ammo taxes, limits on this or that. Might get a little harder to buy yes, nd would be a good start but still.
***There is also the issue of states reporting to the federal database for crimes committed by an individual or records of mental heatlh. So many times states do NOT report these things, for various reasons, so they are often missed at the point of sale or when purchasing a rifle or shotgun (no license needed) or a license to buy a handgun from the sheriffs dept.
I am for better and more accurate checks, better reporting, etc. but not for total temoval. Yes, guns are for killing but they can also protect FROM killing. I KNOW this as they have protected me and mine before.
Unfortunately, "Just call the police does not always work, as it only takes a few seconds for death to follow in an assault, whether by knife or by gun. We cant say' hold on mr robber, ya gotta wait til the police arrive'.
Even the so called policing of school campuses does not work. I enacted scenarios at college to educate folks as to just what a plain old semi -automatic plain jane ranch rifle with preban high capacity mags could do. I showed how I could walk in and shoot the whole class could be killed in a matter of seconds even with a guard at the end of the hallway.
Point is I don't know the answer either, given what we already have in the country, Prohibition did not work either, people found a way, even increasing the number of unlawful businesses in large scale alcohol production. ------- I dont need a drivers license to steal the dump trucks down at the construction site and plow into the state fair, with wall to wall people. I dont need anything but a jug to set the forest fires in TN. A hose and somebody elses gas tank. I wont go into more deadly methods I often use as example's at university that are cheap, require simple checks, no guns or weapons, and WAY deadlier, on a national scale.
We have a violent media, movies ,etc, we have attn seeking internet, the dark net for huamn trafficking, online sales of anarchist handbooks.
The violence will continue unfortunately, with guns or without. I get pissed off every time I see this mss killings, and hear the rhetoric on both sides, with someone thinking THEY know the answer to end it all with the stroke of a pen in this country.
More guns is not the answer either. In NC for example it is not legal to carry concealed in parades or ticketed events. Not that someone intending harm or disregarding this would listen anyway but just saying.
I imagine if during a crowded event, like we just had, everybody pulls a gun and starts looking for the shooter. What would happen to the largely untrained person seeing others with guns drawn. Who's the bad guy and who is the good, esp if only one mistaken shot was taken and then many others followed suit?
This Vegas shooting as well as all the others pretty much sucks, no way about it. One of the reasons I got into conflict management was to learn how to get people to cooperate and understand one another both on a one on one (or groups) better, but at higher lvls in disasters ,building codes, and govt. lvls. I wish I had started sooner as the biggest problems I see in most things are getting different ppl to understand the other and to come to compromises.
But this gun thing is one of the toughest in this country, and involves issues not encountered in others I do not know, but wish I did. I will however continue to educate others and learn more myself.
Gun ownership is not a right. It is a privilege. How privileges work is when they're misused they're taken away. It's too bad a few rotten tomatoes have to ruin it for everybody, but that's how society works.
In perhaps one of the stupider aspects of the aftermath to this, ISIS was quick to claim responsibility for this attack, until it became almost immediately apparent that that narrative was nonsense (though it didn't stop the far-right portions of the internet from spreading the misinformation as far and wide was possible). But it brings up a salient point, which is that it calls into question the validity of every time ISIS claimed responsibility for attacks in the last few years, and from this point forward. It always at least somewhat seemed as if they were attaching themselves to massacres after the fact. Now we can conclusively say they have done so. There is no reason to think they haven't also been doing so in the majority of the shootings involving Muslims in the US and Europe the last few years.
In fact, it's entirely possible this worked in reverse, with ISIS buying into the Alt-right propaganda being spread on 4chan overnight about this shooting being perpetrated by Muslim extremists, and rushing to take credit.
It was interesting to see how ISIS reacted to the lorry attack in Stockholm in April. They didn't react at all. Didn't claim responsibility or anything, even though the guy who did it claimed he had been recruited by ISIS.
But he survived and was arrested. So ISIS ignored the whole thing. Because dead people won't tell anyone that they didn't actually have anything do with ISIS. And living people might make ISIS look bad by how they behave after being arrested. Dead men tell no tales and all that.
ISIS really want to make themselves look like some kind of SPECTRE organization with competent agents lurking all over the world.
As to the number killed and injured, one round from a high powered rifle is not stopped by one body, not even one small tree or car door (n my tests) One bullet can kill more than one, grazing shots can wound many, even given the angle from the position he took. The type of ammo matters, if it was hollow tipped or a FMJacket. (probably the latter from what I am hearing on the rifles) Many bullets in full auto mode into a crowd is a disaster in a short period of time.
I was actually surprised at his position as it showed at least some show of clear and measured thought, and did not involve the usual close up tactics we see in these tragedies. This was more akin to the DC sniper or Anders Breivik. It will be interesting to learn more of the shooters background as the investigation continues to learn more. AND to learn how this is ultimately classified, especially given the current climate of race issues and crime classification.
EDIT: This shot suppressors for hearin and huntin debate crap from the NRA is nonsense. Electronic Wolf Ears for that (filters out the LOUD sounds allowing normal talking and listening), and as for hunting, a dang gun makes it easy enough to kill wildlife as it is.
Obvious this guy had some full auto,I knew just from first listening.
i'm not a gun guy but it didn't sound like real automatic fire to me because it was so uneven, the rate of fire audibly decelerates and accelerates again, several times. there is mention of devices called trigger cranks and bump stocks. goes without saying that these devices are legal...
I imagine if during a crowded event, like we just had, everybody pulls a gun and starts looking for the shooter. What would happen to the largely untrained person seeing others with guns drawn. Who's the bad guy and who is the good, esp if only one mistaken shot was taken and then many others followed suit?
"And when Arthur should depart, he warned all his host that an they see any sword drawn: Look ye come on fiercely, and slay that traitor, Sir Mordred, for I in no wise trust him. In like wise Sir Mordred warned his host that: An ye see any sword drawn, look that ye come on fiercely, and so slay all that ever before you standeth; for in no wise I will not trust for this treaty, for I know well my father will be avenged on me. And so they met as their appointment was, and so they were agreed and accorded thoroughly; and wine was fetched, and they drank. Right soon came an adder out of a little heath bush, and it stung a knight on the foot. And when the knight felt him stung, he looked down and saw the adder, and then he drew his sword to slay the adder, and thought of none other harm. And when the host on both parties saw that sword drawn, then they blew beams, trumpets, and horns, and shouted grimly. And so both hosts dressed them together. And King Arthur took his horse, and said: Alas this unhappy day! and so rode to his party. And Sir Mordred in like wise. And never was there seen a more dolefuller battle in no Christian land; for there was but rushing and riding, foining and striking, and many a grim word was there spoken either to other, and many a deadly stroke."
To be fair mass shootings happen so often in the U.S. the rest of the world becomes desensitized about them and just have the thought process of "this again". Yeah it's a tragedy and it's awful but America won't change it's position on gun control. So meh.
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about anything. If one happens to not give a shit about tragic loss of human life, please keep it to yourself. Basic decency, please. I know it's asking a lot from a web forum for a computer game company, but I know we can be better than this.
A search of the shooter's car turned up ammonium nitrate, the typical go-to chemical for people looking to make inexpensive homemade explosives, and they also found explosives at his primary residence. Shooting into the crowd was not his only plan, it seems.
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about anything. If one happens to not give a shit about tragic loss of human life, please keep it to yourself. Basic decency, please. I know it's asking a lot from a web forum for a computer game company, but I know we can be better than this.
Far more than 59 people are dying every day in Syria. Are you telling me you "give a shit" about any of them?
It's absolutely amazing how Americans arrogantly cling to our "exceptionalism" myth, bury our heads in the sand, and somehow think that it will either magically just stop happening, or that nothing can be done. Despite, like health care, every other developed country in the world having figured it out. We don't have an epidemic of people setting forest fires, poisoning water supplies, or even (as of yet) using vehicles as weapons. We have a problem with guns. As mentioned above, we average a mass shooting PER DAY. What's next, 250 killed and 1000 injured?? On the local right-wing radio station this morning, his solution was (seriously) "that we need more Jesus in our hearts" which is about the most asinine response to a serious problem I've ever heard. In the 10 minutes I listened on the way to work, the word "guns" didn't come up one time. And therein lies your problem. Everyone outside the US can see our problem plain as day. And yet we remain blind.
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about anything. If one happens to not give a shit about tragic loss of human life, please keep it to yourself. Basic decency, please. I know it's asking a lot from a web forum for a computer game company, but I know we can be better than this.
Far more than 59 people are dying every day in Syria. Are you telling me you "give a shit" about any of them?
Yes, I do.
There's a difference between saying something doesn't matter and not saying when something does. Figure it out.
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about anything. If one happens to not give a shit about tragic loss of human life, please keep it to yourself. Basic decency, please. I know it's asking a lot from a web forum for a computer game company, but I know we can be better than this.
Love how u just picked two words from my quote when it's a valid response. Fact is I'm right. Hell even dogs and toddlers accidentally shoot and kill people in America goes to show how backwards the gun laws are.
It's absolutely amazing how Americans arrogantly cling to our "exceptionalism" myth, bury our heads in the sand, and somehow think that it will either magically just stop happening, or that nothing can be done. Despite, like health care, every other developed country in the world having figured it out. We don't have an epidemic of people setting forest fires, poisoning water supplies, or even (as of yet) using vehicles as weapons. We have a problem with guns. As mentioned above, we average a mass shooting PER DAY. What's next, 250 killed and 1000 injured?? On the local right-wing radio station this morning, his solution was (seriously) "that we need more Jesus in our hearts" which is about the most asinine response to a serious problem I've ever heard. In the 10 minutes I listened on the way to work, the word "guns" didn't come up one time. And therein lies your problem. Everyone outside the US can see our problem plain as day. And yet we remain blind.
As I have noted before, no one cares when the gun-related deaths happen only slowly. The next time the Democrats control both Houses of Congress (it is only a matter of time before that happens) then that will be their opportunity to do something about guns. Of course, we both know they won't even though they say they want to...so does that mean the Democrats are controlled by the NRA, as well? They had an opportunity back in 2009-2010 to enact whatever gun control legislation they wanted to but they chose not to. Maybe they will next time...but I doubt it.
Just for the sake of discussion, let us presume that today, right now, Congress enacts a full ban on the sale of any gun which is not a handgun. This law won't begin to touch the stockpile of weapons which currently exists and it won't stop the next mass shooting (some of which occur with handguns despite being more difficult). I am not saying "do nothing because the solution won't immediately fix the problem"; what I *am* saying is that even a full ban on sales won't stop the trend, only slow it down some.
Hotels are now going to start screening luggage guests are bringing in. This will be tricky, though, because if I am a wealthy person I might decide to go stay in someone else's hotel where they won't screen my baggage because of my status. Of course, this won't stop someone from renting a room, having their bags screened, settle in, then going to get the shoulder bag containing the weapons out of the car and bringing them in via the side entrance at 230am--crafty people will always find a way.
I'm not telling anyone how to feel about anything. If one happens to not give a shit about tragic loss of human life, please keep it to yourself. Basic decency, please. I know it's asking a lot from a web forum for a computer game company, but I know we can be better than this.
Love how u just picked two words from my quote when it's a valid response. Fact is I'm right. Hell even dogs and toddlers accidentally shoot and kill people in America goes to show how backwards the gun laws are.
Yes, I quoted the insensitive part of your post. I should have used more words to say that you have a very valid criticism of the state of gun violence in the US and that it's easy to become desensitized. Yep, we have lots of gun deaths in the US, but that doesn't mean it deserves a "meh."
I'm as liberal as they come. I probably had roughly zero in common ideologically with most of the people at this country music festival. That doesn't mean I don't weep for the senseless loss of life.
I also live about 19km from the site of the killings. I used to work at the university which is right down the street. It's personal for me. I understand it isn't personal for everyone, but I will speak up about it. If folks want to defend their inhumanity and say killing doesn't matter, that is certainly their right but I will mention that it's fucked up.
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Anyway...apparently hotel staff entered the room before the event and did not notice anything out of the ordinary. Presumably, he had all the weapons in bags in the closet so they wouldn't have seen anything.
Again, I have to ask: what sort of law would have stopped a person with ample money, no history of violence, no history of mental illness, and no history of substance abuse from purchasing all these weapons?
Even conservative people are for sensible regulations like not allowing the mentally ill to get assault weapons. Doesn't matter, Obama something something so Trump repealed that restriction. That should be a no-brainer but hey no-brainer indeed Trump can't stand it because his Republican party corporate masters said so.
But wait, this guy in Vegas didn't have a history or mental problems you say. I'm sure when he bought the first couple guns he was not insane and passed whatever weak background check there is in Nevada, but yesterday, he was insane. Oopsie hundreds of people shot for that mistake.
Maybe we shouldn't have assault weapons of mass destruction available to everybody. Because sometimes people are going to have bad days and if there's a gun they can reach then things can get really bad really quickly. Sure, they could get a knife or a car but it's just not as easy and potential for mass casualties as assault weapon guns.
The point I am making is that you can't just say "ban all guns", pass a law banning them (or certain types of them), then think the problem is solved. Chicago has very strict gun control laws and people may still purchase guns legally there.
I just got home and was actually able to watch some of the cell phone video from this incident. That guy was shooting for almost 45 minutes. I just read a sobering stat that there were more casualties in this incident than at the battle of Lexington or Concord in the American Revolution. This is insane. If this is the kind of country people want to live in, well, that's fine I guess, but there can't be any shock or indignation when this happens again, and again, and again, and again. As it will. I wouldn't be surprised if something else similar took place this week or this month, before the media has even moved on from this one.
Of course, we won't do anything. There is a better chance of Donald Trump advocating to have Barack Obama replace George Washington on Mt. Rushmore than the Republican Congress moving even one centimeter on gun control. If anything other than "thoughts and prayers" are offered, I swear to god I will eat the laptop I am typing this on. But what SHOULD we do?? Should we ban all guns?? Of course not, but we SHOULD ban anything remotely like whatever the hell this guy was using. Because if this is allowed to stand, then any single individual in this country can turn any PLACE in this country (as we've seen, work, movie theaters, churches, schools, concerts, malls etc etc etc) into a goddamn warzone. If this is anyone's idea of "freedom", then I guess freedom doesn't mean much. Liberals don't want everyone's hunting rifles or handguns they keep in their bedroom. But yeah, I want every single assault rifle off the streets of this country.
We go to Disneyland a half-dozen times a year and it's been interesting to watch their security evolve. Post 9/11 they started bag checks before you could get into the actual parks. They later added metal detectors. Now they've moved the screening area to the parking garage and entrances to Downtown Disney. You can't go to the movies, get a bite, go shopping without being screened. I imagine at some point they'll move the screening to the resort hotel entrances.
In fact, it's entirely possible this worked in reverse, with ISIS buying into the Alt-right propaganda being spread on 4chan overnight about this shooting being perpetrated by Muslim extremists, and rushing to take credit.
Who was the suspect? I hoped it wasn’t a Muslim. I also hoped it wasn’t an African-American man. Obviously, the identity of the shooter doesn’t make anyone more dead or alive. For the particular crime, the identity and even the motive is basically irrelevant. As a journalist, I shouldn’t really ‘hope’ it is or is not anyone. It is whatever it is. Is this liberal guilt or race fixation? I don’t think so. I do so for a pretty simple reason: mass violence by Muslims or black men are immediately political – and wrapped into storylines they have relatively little connection to – whereas as mass violence by whites just is. They are individual acts and unfathomable, no more addressable by policy or societal action than the obvious and inevitable fact that we will all one day die.
If the shooter is a Muslim or even more a Muslim immigrant, the attack is “terrorism” and even more than that it becomes enrolled into the catalog of threats to justify immigrant bans, surveilling or expulsion of Muslim immigrants, various military actions in the Middle East, new wars, scraping the Iran nuclear deal.
If it’s a black man it’s only slightly less political. It’s part of the rising tide of crime (statistically slightly true though greatly exaggerated) Jeff Sessions and President Trump use to inflame racial division and reignite the drug war and 80s era policing. It’s a violent turn for the rising tide of African-American protest ranging from taking a knee to protests in Ferguson and other cities.
If it is a white man, seemingly without religious views of any particular relevance to the crime or targeting people of a particular race, it’s just … a thing that happened and not something we can do anything about. It’s original sin. A troubled, distraught person. Just a crazed individual, someone who seemed normal and then went horribly wrong. Critically, it’s an individual story, isolated and untouchable by anything we can do as a society.
Let’s be honest with ourselves: when the shooter isn’t white the violence is often ‘terrorism’ and almost always political. That tells us a lot about racism and xenophobia in America. But fundamentally these are diversions. The problem is that America is the only country which is wealthy and not roiled by endemic civil conflict or war which regularly has mass gun massacres.
There are exceptions: explicitly racist murders by white men put a focus on racism. Dylann Roof’s 2015 black church massacre in Charleston, South Carolina permanently altered the debate over the Confederate flag in South Carolina. But these are the exceptions.
It’s certainly not like no one cares. Far from it. Everyone does. As I write, the whole country is in another of these spasms of shock and numbness. If you think part of the problem is guns, you’ve known since the Newtown massacre that literally no outrage is great enough for the country to rethink its march toward greater and greater freedom to arm yourself with more and more powerful weapons. We won’t even have a period of a few weeks in which there will be a push for new gun restrictions only to see it fail. Because we know no new law will be passed.
Fundamentally, we are stuck. All the massacres matter. But they’re only readily politicized along our existing paranoia about Muslim terrorists and white fears of black criminality. Since any action on guns is ruled out, we’re left with more or less emotive versions of “thoughts and prayers.” The easy availability of military style weapons is obvious and immediate cause of these massacres. Human nature contains violence, evil, senseless aggression. But that’s true in every country. We’re the only place where anything remotely like this happens on a regular basis.
But beyond guns – which are absolutely, absolutely necessary to address and dramatically restrict access to – we need to recognize that we don’t have mass violence only because of guns. We have so many guns because America is a deeply violent society. That goes back generations. We have recurrent massacres because we are awash in firearms and also because we are a deeply violent society. Nothing so deeply rooted in our culture can be easily changed. But we could change it. We cannot and do not because at the end of the day we accept it.
Events like this always seem shocking to Americans because we so coddled. We don't have daily instances like this, we don't have bombs blowing up in marketplaces every week, we don't have to keep one eye on the sky for drones, and we often don't have to worry about truck attacks. Still, we do need to quit being shocked. "How can this happen here?" *rolls eyes* It happens here because human beings are short-tempered, irrational, and sometimes prone to acting out violently without any apparent cause.
This point doesn't diminish the brutality of the incident however, especially without a clear motive in which drove this person to commit the act.
Many guns and lot of ammo can fit in very few bags. I know this from experience.
Fully automatic guns are a bit harder to obtain. In NC, for ex. it takes a firearms dealer license to buy one. Now that;s possible but takes a little while.
Full auto and assault rifle definitions have been misunderstood. Semi- auto (one pull, one shot) rifles are just as easy to buy as a shotgun at wal mart.
Now many of these semi-auto rifles are made and decked out with many of the same features as fully automatic military grade weapons, but still one pull/one shot.
The ban we had years ago was so stupid it did nothing. All it did was word it so certain features could not be put on the same rifles. Still were one pull/ one shot. Same with high capacity magazines/ limit was set to ten rounds.
Now some of the better ones ARE faster BUT still basically the same. This law did almost nothing.
Now, it was STILL legal after the ban to buy high capacity magazines and various parts and pieces IF they were made BEFORE the ban. 10 years after the ban I was still buying high capacity mags, even after pp; went hog wild buying all the old stuff rt before AND after the ban.
Same with rifles. That's how many guns and gun parts we have here.
I have also been approached many a time at gun shows wanting to buy a gun outside the door with no license , and sell as well, with no $5 license from the sheriffs office. Never offered to sell.
As to FULLY automatic rifles, they can be gotten at 'trunk sales',AK-47's and SKS's mostly. Now the right people and it is possible.
Obvious this guy had some full auto,I knew just from first listening.
Anyway, it is a tough thing to deal with. I researched this for a year in my undergrad in public health degree, coming up with idea after idea, But it still came back to the stockpile of guns and ammo in this country. Gun show loopholes, ammo taxes, limits on this or that. Might get a little harder to buy yes, nd would be a good start but still.
***There is also the issue of states reporting to the federal database for crimes committed by an individual or records of mental heatlh. So many times states do NOT report these things, for various reasons, so they are often missed at the point of sale or when purchasing a rifle or shotgun (no license needed) or a license to buy a handgun from the sheriffs dept.
I am for better and more accurate checks, better reporting, etc. but not for total temoval. Yes, guns are for killing but they can also protect FROM killing. I KNOW this as they have protected me and mine before.
Unfortunately, "Just call the police does not always work, as it only takes a few seconds for death to follow in an assault, whether by knife or by gun.
We cant say' hold on mr robber, ya gotta wait til the police arrive'.
Even the so called policing of school campuses does not work. I enacted scenarios at college to educate folks as to just what a plain old semi -automatic plain jane ranch rifle with preban high capacity mags could do.
I showed how I could walk in and shoot the whole class could be killed in a matter of seconds even with a guard at the end of the hallway.
Point is I don't know the answer either, given what we already have in the country, Prohibition did not work either, people found a way, even increasing the number of unlawful businesses in large scale alcohol production.
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I dont need a drivers license to steal the dump trucks down at the construction site and plow into the state fair, with wall to wall people. I dont need anything but a jug to set the forest fires in TN. A hose and somebody elses gas tank. I wont go into more deadly methods I often use as example's at university that are cheap, require simple checks, no guns or weapons, and WAY deadlier, on a national scale.
We have a violent media, movies ,etc, we have attn seeking internet, the dark net for huamn trafficking, online sales of anarchist handbooks.
The violence will continue unfortunately, with guns or without. I get pissed off every time I see this mss killings, and hear the rhetoric on both sides, with someone thinking THEY know the answer to end it all with the stroke of a pen in this country.
More guns is not the answer either. In NC for example it is not legal to carry concealed in parades or ticketed events. Not that someone intending harm or disregarding this would listen anyway but just saying.
I imagine if during a crowded event, like we just had, everybody pulls a gun and starts looking for the shooter. What would happen to the largely untrained person seeing others with guns drawn. Who's the bad guy and who is the good, esp if only one mistaken shot was taken and then many others followed suit?
This Vegas shooting as well as all the others pretty much sucks, no way about it. One of the reasons I got into conflict management was to learn how to get people to cooperate and understand one another both on a one on one (or groups) better, but at higher lvls in disasters ,building codes, and govt. lvls. I wish I had started sooner as the biggest problems I see in most things are getting different ppl to understand the other and to come to compromises.
But this gun thing is one of the toughest in this country, and involves issues not encountered in others I do not know, but wish I did. I will however continue to educate others and learn more myself.
But he survived and was arrested. So ISIS ignored the whole thing. Because dead people won't tell anyone that they didn't actually have anything do with ISIS. And living people might make ISIS look bad by how they behave after being arrested. Dead men tell no tales and all that.
ISIS really want to make themselves look like some kind of SPECTRE organization with competent agents lurking all over the world.
I was actually surprised at his position as it showed at least some show of clear and measured thought, and did not involve the usual close up tactics we see in these tragedies. This was more akin to the DC sniper or Anders Breivik.
It will be interesting to learn more of the shooters background as the investigation continues to learn more.
AND to learn how this is ultimately classified, especially given the current climate of race issues and crime classification.
EDIT: This shot suppressors for hearin and huntin debate crap from the NRA is nonsense. Electronic Wolf Ears for that (filters out the LOUD sounds allowing normal talking and listening), and as for hunting, a dang gun makes it easy enough to kill wildlife as it is.
and wine was fetched, and they drank. Right soon came an adder out of a little heath bush, and it stung
a knight on the foot. And when the knight felt him stung, he looked down and saw the adder, and then he drew his sword to slay the adder, and thought of none other harm. And when the host on both parties saw that sword drawn, then they blew beams, trumpets, and horns, and shouted grimly. And so both hosts dressed them together. And King Arthur took his horse, and said: Alas this unhappy day! and so rode to his party. And Sir Mordred in like wise. And never was there seen a more dolefuller battle in no Christian land; for there was but rushing and riding, foining and striking, and many a grim word was there spoken either to other, and many a deadly stroke."
-Le Morte d'Arthur
And that's 550 years old.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts
For example, there were more than one mass shooting (4+ victims) per day on average in 2015.
A search of the shooter's car turned up ammonium nitrate, the typical go-to chemical for people looking to make inexpensive homemade explosives, and they also found explosives at his primary residence. Shooting into the crowd was not his only plan, it seems.
There's a difference between saying something doesn't matter and not saying when something does. Figure it out.
Just for the sake of discussion, let us presume that today, right now, Congress enacts a full ban on the sale of any gun which is not a handgun. This law won't begin to touch the stockpile of weapons which currently exists and it won't stop the next mass shooting (some of which occur with handguns despite being more difficult). I am not saying "do nothing because the solution won't immediately fix the problem"; what I *am* saying is that even a full ban on sales won't stop the trend, only slow it down some.
Hotels are now going to start screening luggage guests are bringing in. This will be tricky, though, because if I am a wealthy person I might decide to go stay in someone else's hotel where they won't screen my baggage because of my status. Of course, this won't stop someone from renting a room, having their bags screened, settle in, then going to get the shoulder bag containing the weapons out of the car and bringing them in via the side entrance at 230am--crafty people will always find a way.
I'm as liberal as they come. I probably had roughly zero in common ideologically with most of the people at this country music festival. That doesn't mean I don't weep for the senseless loss of life.
I also live about 19km from the site of the killings. I used to work at the university which is right down the street. It's personal for me. I understand it isn't personal for everyone, but I will speak up about it. If folks want to defend their inhumanity and say killing doesn't matter, that is certainly their right but I will mention that it's fucked up.