@TJ_Hooker you are misrepresenting my words based on your own extrapolation. I never talked about betrayal or large groups of backers or polls. All of those exist only in your post.
I merely expressed my (negative) feedback on the lack of mod support and stated that next time I will wait and see how a project turns out before engaging. I fail to see what is wrong with that.
I don't normally comment on games that are not been released yet, but I thought that one of the selling point of the Kickstarter project was to engage backers so they could provide their feedback during also the development phase.
On the bright side, I learned an important lesson: never trust a Kickstarter project ever again and always wait for the final product before getting engaged both economically and emotionally. For that at least Obsidian has my thanks.
You first mention the bit about Kickstarter allowing community feedback, and then say that PoE's Kickstarter has taught you to never trust Kickstarter. To me that really sounds like you're implying that Obsidian betrayed your trust by not adhering the Kickstarter ideal of listening to your backers. My apologies if that's not what you meant, it was not my intention to put words in your mouth.
And I don't think I ever indicated that you had mentioned large groups of backers. My point was that if you are arguing that Obsidian is not listening to their backers regarding moddability, you have to show that a significant number of backers are asking for moddability in the first place. However, if that is not what you are arguing (which you seem to have indicated), then this is indeed a moot point.
That is a shortsighted way to think. Cutting content? Moddability means never running out of content. Studios, even ones as quirky or indie as Obsidian, run out of money and interest to add content; communities do not. People are still making mods for BG from what I have seen of the boards here.
I don't like the idea that we can just count on another genius like Wes Weimer to make modding PE free and easy for us; you just can't count on that happening anymore. The idea that it can just be added after release is similarly foolhardy; modding is infrastructure, and infrastructure is easier to incorporate before a major project is complete than after.
All that considered I'd gladly give up some content if it means making it easier and faster to get modding going. Long-term advantages are better than short-term satisfaction.
So it isn't appropriate to assume that we'll have someone come along and make modding easier for people (a la Weimer), but it is appropriate to assume that we'll have talented modders coming out of the woodwork to provide a never ending stream of quality content?
To be honest, I don't need endless amounts of content. I'd rather have quality over quantity. And yes, I realize that official content is in no way automatically better than mod content. But I trust Obsidian more than I trust the average modder. I'm sure, given time, mods will be released that rival or exceed the original content. But I'm not particularly interested in waiting for those, nor am I particularly interested in sifting through all the mods to find the diamond in the rough. I'd like a complete, expansive game that I can fully enjoy at launch. I don't replay game enough (and have a big enough backlog) to require new content in perpetuity.
Lastly, I think suggesting that we count on PoE's own version of Weimer to be a fair response, given what @Erg said: "And by moddable I don't mean TES Construction Set or Aurora Toolset moddable, but just moddable like BG." If his standard of moddability is BG, i.e. a game that is not inherently moddable but instead relies on community developed tools developed after release, then I would say that PoE appears to meet that standard. At the very least, we have insufficient information to conclude that it does not meet that standard.
Yes, these is an enormous difference between counting on a small community to make mods using established tools released by the developer versus counting on some angel developer to come down from on high and reverse engineer the game and then develop, and then share, tools that do the same thing. God bless Wes Weimer, but we just can't count on that happening. Furthermore, having assurance that the basic tools will be covered by the developer is better because it means people like Weimer don't have to waste time re-inventing the wheel with regards to mod development and can focus on making and releasing mods and more powerful modding tools.
Again, yours is an enormously short-sighted viewpoint. Studio interest in developing content for a game never lasts as long as you want it to. The Skyrim community learned this the hard way after Dragonborn, when Bethesda abruptly announced there would be no more DLC for the game, dashing a lot of hopes that they would add features to the game that modders could not.
And again, modding is infrastructure. It's easier to build in before a project is complete than after, and invests the community in carrying on work in the game long after the studio moves on. There are any number of other publishers pushing out that high-quality, quickly exhausted content which you and others seem to love; far fewer that support the modding community. It is disappointing that Obsidian should choose the former path.
Again, yours is an enormously short-sighted viewpoint. Studio interest in developing content for a game never lasts as long as you want it to. The Skyrim community learned this the hard way after Dragonborn, when Bethesda abruptly announced there would be no more DLC for the game, dashing a lot of hopes that they would add features to the game that modders could not.
See, here you seem to be telling me what my own opinion is on how long studios ought to keep developing content. And no, as a whole I don't feel that studio interest ends prematurely. At a certain point I kind of just like to move on to another game, especially these days with Steam and GOG sales, where new games can be had for what literally amounts to pocket change. And as I said, by the time I get around to playing the first game again, it will likely have been long enough for everything to feel fresh. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to modding in any way. All else being equal, it'd be great for a game to be moddable, (and I do play with mods in a few of my games) but for me it's just not necessary. Call that short-sighted if you will.
You do realize where you are, no? :P The Baldur's Gate forum strikes me as a place where those who play a game long beyond the point where most have moved on gather.
I don't see games like blockbuster movies, something to experience once and then file away, to occasionally reference every now and again at a party or gathering. I like it when they have long-term value. Modding is a perfect accessory to games like that - providing long-term value from the technical and development standpoint to compliment a game with long-term value in terms of its thematic and literary depth. It's why games like Baldur's Gate or Alpha Centauri or Morrowind are still so intensely beloved decades after they have been released - the timelessness of their stories fortified by the evergreen renewal offered through modding.
It is now up to Obsidian whether PE will pass into history as footnotes in the history of that exalted company, or as one of their number.
From @LiamEsler posts it looks like PoE will be much less moddable than BG was at release. Even before WeiDU, mods were possible in BG because it had an override folder and an huge amount of externalised stuff, all those 2DAs files for example. PoE will have none of those.
I fear, as I said in my previous posts, that we will have the same level of moddability of Mass Effect, i.e. almost null. Where is the Mass Effect's own version of Weimer ? Not all games have one apparently.
And I think this comes down to opinion somewhat, as it depends on how you interpret @LiamEsler's comments. See, Liam was responding to comments made where the Devs said the game would not be modder un-friendly, and mentioned externalization of a few things. Liam responded with:
I'm not sure that's still accurate. That interview was from late last year - a lot has changed in that time. I could be wrong, but - for example - I don't think weapons will be externalized (I implemented almost all of them myself).
Everything is moddable to an extent, of course, but Unity isn't great with mods.
So now we know that not everything said in that interview is still true, the part about weapon externalization in particular. You seem you have interpreted this as meaning that the opposite of what was said in that interview is now true, i.e. instead of having some nice externalizations, "PoE will have none of those [externalizations]". (And please correct me if I'm miscontruing your comments again.)
I instead view it as meaning that what in that interview isn't necessarily true, but at the same time not necessarily meaning that it is false. With the exception of the weapons externalization bit (which we now seem to know is false), things seem pretty up in the air; just because we know of one thing that is no longer externalized, doesn't mean that nothing is externalized.
And I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong. Liam might be able to clear up a few things, but I think it likely that none of us will truly know who was right or wrong until the game comes out and people start trying to crack it open.
I don't understand the big deal. As far as I know, consoles are very difficult to mod, but that industry seems to be doing just fine. I think some people here are grossly overestimating the value of mods. Yes, the majority of die hard fans who will play the game for 15 years will probably rely on mods. But most people don't do that. Most people play a game once or twice, a big RPG a few different times to see the whole thing. They don't stay around for more than a few years, and then they move on to the next big thing. The fact that most gamers have consoles I think speaks to that.
I don't understand the big deal. As far as I know, consoles are very difficult to mod, but that industry seems to be doing just fine. I think some people here are grossly overestimating the value of mods. Yes, the majority of die hard fans who will play the game for 15 years will probably rely on mods. But most people don't do that. Most people play a game once or twice, a big RPG a few different times to see the whole thing. They don't stay around for more than a few years, and then they move on to the next big thing. The fact that most gamers have consoles I think speaks to that.
This was my thoughts exactly when I saw this thread become a debate for the game's moddability.
I think it likely that none of us will truly know who was right or wrong until the game comes out and people start trying to crack it open.
That's exactly why I said:
"next time I will wait and see how a project turns out before engaging."
Sorry, totally forgot about that. Yeah, to be honest, even if I am wildly impressed with both PoE and T:ToN, I still think I'll try to be a little more skeptical when it comes to Kickstarter (and preorders, which are very similar, functionally). I like to pride by self on being a savvy consumer, but when I saw those Kickstarters I was far too quick to start throwing money at my screen. Especially with T:ToN; I pretty much just skimmed over the page, and even that I think was largely a formality. I think I had pretty much decided I was donating as soon as I heard about it.
I don't understand the big deal. As far as I know, consoles are very difficult to mod, but that industry seems to be doing just fine. I think some people here are grossly overestimating the value of mods. Yes, the majority of die hard fans who will play the game for 15 years will probably rely on mods. But most people don't do that. Most people play a game once or twice, a big RPG a few different times to see the whole thing. They don't stay around for more than a few years, and then they move on to the next big thing. The fact that most gamers have consoles I think speaks to that.
You and I are going to have to agree to violently disagree on everything, then. Success in the free market doesn't confer intellectual or moral legitimacy.
I played Baldur's Gate when it first came out, and have been playing it on and off over the years. Aside from trying to troubleshoot other people's issues, I have never installed a mod with the intent of playing the game with it. I'm still here. Mods are not everything, but it is a bit disappointing to hear that the game won't be as moddable as the interviews made it out to be. It is nice when developers leave their game open to a few creative minds in the community.
Had I known this when paying, I would have only paid the standard cost of a PC game, around £40.
That said, there are apparently tools already out there for generic Unity games (for sale, no less, though I have no idea what their capabilities are or if they are even reliable). There is an attempt at creating an unpacker (but not a packer), it's called DisUnity (no idea where it comes from, just did a quick search for 'unity unpacker' on Google but didn't follow any particular link). Of course, it will depend on whether or not Obsidian encrypt their files or have some custom method of packing that the already available tools haven't accounted for.
It would be considerably easier if Obsidian created a sort of Override folder (it is apparently easy to do, and you can load resources directly from a file path or from the internet, but it means writing all the file handling themselves). I'm not sure I would be particularly bothered if it didn't have some inbuilt modularity to its file structure.
Edit: of course, it's easy to sit here and say it would be easy, but they are no doubt on a tight deadline. Adding that stuff, if not already accounted for, will likely mean something else will suffer.
I don't understand the big deal. As far as I know, consoles are very difficult to mod, but that industry seems to be doing just fine. I think some people here are grossly overestimating the value of mods. Yes, the majority of die hard fans who will play the game for 15 years will probably rely on mods. But most people don't do that. Most people play a game once or twice, a big RPG a few different times to see the whole thing. They don't stay around for more than a few years, and then they move on to the next big thing. The fact that most gamers have consoles I think speaks to that.
You and I are going to have to agree to violently disagree on everything, then. Success in the free market doesn't confer intellectual or moral legitimacy.
...and modability does? I'm not sure where to go with this. Why is the "moral/intillectual legitimacy" relevant?
I don't understand the big deal. As far as I know, consoles are very difficult to mod, but that industry seems to be doing just fine. I think some people here are grossly overestimating the value of mods. Yes, the majority of die hard fans who will play the game for 15 years will probably rely on mods. But most people don't do that. Most people play a game once or twice, a big RPG a few different times to see the whole thing. They don't stay around for more than a few years, and then they move on to the next big thing. The fact that most gamers have consoles I think speaks to that.
You and I are going to have to agree to violently disagree on everything, then. Success in the free market doesn't confer intellectual or moral legitimacy.
...and modability does? I'm not sure where to go with this. Why is the "moral/intillectual legitimacy" relevant?
No, but that is the point you are making - consoles are successful because most people have them, ergo their way is right.
I don't understand the big deal. As far as I know, consoles are very difficult to mod, but that industry seems to be doing just fine. I think some people here are grossly overestimating the value of mods. Yes, the majority of die hard fans who will play the game for 15 years will probably rely on mods. But most people don't do that. Most people play a game once or twice, a big RPG a few different times to see the whole thing. They don't stay around for more than a few years, and then they move on to the next big thing. The fact that most gamers have consoles I think speaks to that.
You and I are going to have to agree to violently disagree on everything, then. Success in the free market doesn't confer intellectual or moral legitimacy.
...and modability does? I'm not sure where to go with this. Why is the "moral/intillectual legitimacy" relevant?
No, but that is the point you are making - consoles are successful because most people have them, ergo their way is right.
His point is that a lot of people buy consoles, so a lot people aren't really that concerned about mods. It's not about whether it's right or wrong, it's that it's not an issue for most people. If a company is developing a product, would it make sense to invest a lot of resources to develop a feature that only a small minority will care about? The answer could possibly be yes depending on the situation, but most of the time it's no.
The first is that only a minority of users ever use mods. An even smaller minority make them. Modding tools do extend the longevity of a game, but that should never mean a company ships a sub-par product just to cater to said minority.
The second is that frankly, those of you saying Obsidian should just do it clearly don't understand how much money, time and effort would be involved in such a venture. Game development is a heinously expensive, difficult field: Please don't presume you know better than people with decades of experience.
If it was possible to do it before release, they'd have done it. Obsidian have never shied away from mods and mod tools - Josh Sawyer, project lead on Pillars of Eternity and all around swell guy, actually released mods for Fallout: New Vegas. They understand how important mods are to some of their userbase. I'm sure they'll do everything they can post-release.
There is a reason I posted "agree to violently disagree," and it is because I didn't want to derail the thread into console war territory. I will gladly engage on this debate further in another thread.
My last word on modding: I find it disappointing that no strong effort is apparently being made to support it from the outset. Not strongly enough to pull an Oculus and demand my money back, but strongly all the same. Next topic.
My last word on modding: I find it disappointing that no strong effort is apparently being made to support it from the outset. Not strongly enough to pull an Oculus and demand my money back, but strongly all the same. Next topic.
@Erg simple question - are you really going to take less satisfaction playing PoE, let's say first or second time, knowing that the game will be less prone to modding right after release? I bet, by the time you thoroughly finish the game once or twice there will be some mods you could enjoy in your next playthroughs.
Seriously do you guys really believe that if the game turns out to be a success, the devs will let it to be forgotten? I think they will produce modding suit or at least make mod making easy for the community as much as they can.
They had to temporarily gave up from this for the sake of quality of a full product. I doubt they gave up from it for good.
I don't understand you...it's like if I suddenly stop believing in Torment: Tides of Numenera, when the devs announced that battle will be turn-based after community poll, which was by the way inch close in favor of this solution. I prefer real time combat, but still don't throwing curses at Inxile for pulling a fast one on me.
simple question - are you really going to take less satisfaction playing PoE, let's say first or second time, knowing that the game will be less prone to modding right after release?
@Cahir, simple answer to your simple question: the lack of mods would IMO severely impact the longevity and the replay value of the game. In other words, it will most likely be yet another game that I'll play maybe once and then forget forever. Moreover, I've already paid for the first expansion, but if there will be a second one (or DLCs) I would definitely not buy them.
it's like if I suddenly stop believing in Torment: Tides of Numenera, when the devs announced that battle will be turn-based after community poll, which was by the way inch close in favor of this solution. I prefer real time combat, but still don't throwing curses at Inxile for pulling a fast one on me.
I believe the combat system to be the less important factor in a game sold like the spiritual successor of Planescape Torment. The original has one of the worse combat in the history of videogames and it is a great game nevertheless.
OK. I'll have a little faith, so I will stop complaining (not really, I'm not serious here) and I will wait faithfully for the first mod to be released before playing the game. I just hope that the word Eternity in the game title will have nothing to do with the duration of my waiting period. This was a (bad) joke.
In other words, it will most likely be yet another game that I'll play maybe once and then forget forever.
This part I find genuinely odd. I've played through Baldur's Gate, both games, even without any mods, just attempting different characters and parties and strategies, sometimes even finding things I missed the first playthrough. I'm reasonably certain I will continue to do this with Pillars of Eternity as well.
There'll be plenty of replay value in it, as there are in many other games, even without mods. A good game is one where you can never do everything on a single playthrough, and you need no mods to do this.
@Cahir, simple answer to your simple question: the lack of mods would IMO severely impact the longevity and the replay value of the game. In other words, it will most likely be yet another game that I'll play maybe once and then forget forever. Moreover, I've already paid for the first expansion, but if there will be a second one (or DLCs) I would definitely not buy them.
I agree that lack of mods may impact longetivity and replay value, no argue here. But would you not buy another DLC if the vanilla game and first DLC turns out to be splendid games just because there will be no mods from the start?
OK. I'll have a little faith, so I will stop complaining (not really, I'm not serious here) and I will wait faithfully for the first mod to be released before playing the game. I just hope that the word Eternity in the game title will have nothing to do with the duration of my waiting period. This was a (bad) joke.
Again, correct me if I got you wrong (and missed which part of your statement was an actual joke), but do you really plan to put the game on shelf, until the first mod arise, before even playing the game at least once? Don't get me wrong, but if you indeed do, that's just...ridiculous. Don't tell me that you only play games that have mods? Do you prefer playing the game that not entirely matches your taste, but for which community produced tons of mods, than a magnificent game for which mods may or may not eventually pop up? Take the PST, it's on the IE engine, so theoretically there should be a tons of mods made by the modders, just like with BG1 and BG2. But there are only few, most of them made by one modder. What does it say to me? That the game is so good, that it really no need dozens of mods to last long. To be honest, I finished PST more times than BG1 and BG2 and only once I played with all mods available. Each time I had the same amount of fun. No mods needed - just the brilliance of vanilla game.
I'm just trying to understand you guys, and to some extent I really do, but your thinking is way too extreme - to the limits of ridiculousness, I dare to say. No mods, no playing.
This is actually very sad. Are they able to change this post release to make it easier? Is such a change likely?
I agree that making a product like this unmoddable is an AWFUL idea. Mods can do wonders for your products longevity and popularity. While it is true that there will be some 'bad' mods, there will also be AMAZING ones. There are also a lot of people who find their calling and gain experience by first modding other peoples games. Some of these people now work for/have their own studios. Every mod can be great or awful, it can depend on the end users preference. But I think we should at least be given the option at some point.
I find odd that you find odd that others may have different tastes than you.
I find odd that your tastes are so incredibly specific and difficult to fulfill. Even in the present day, when modding games is common, I cannot imagine you could find many a game to play more than once.
What did you do earlier on, in the era of the Gold Box games, before you had even heard of the mods? Did you only ever play a game once then, too?
I agree that making a product like this unmoddable is an AWFUL idea.
And like I said before, I am absolutely certain they would do it if they could. Obsidian is smart enough to understand that mods are important - yet for a reason or another, they found it impossible to focus on it. They had their reasons: we may not know of them, but I think we can pretty safely say they were good reasons.
I agree that lack of mods may impact longetivity and replay value, no argue here. But would you not buy another DLC if the vanilla game and first DLC turns out to be splendid games just because there will be no mods from the start?
Why should I buy DLCs for a game without longevity and replay value? How can a game without longevity and replay value be splendid? Based on my personal tastes it can't.
Again, correct me if I got you wrong (and missed which part of your statement was an actual joke), but do you really plan to put the game on shelf, until the first mod arise, before even playing the game at least once? Don't get me wrong, but if you indeed do, that's just...ridiculous. Don't tell me that you only play games that have mods? Do you prefer playing the game that not entirely matches your taste, but for which community produced tons of mods, than a magnificent game for which mods may or may not eventually pop up? Take the PST, it's on the IE engine, so theoretically there should be a tons of mods made by the modders, just like with BG1 and BG2. But there are only few, most of them made by one modder. What does it say to me? That the game is so good, that it really no need dozens of mods to last long. To be honest, I finished PST more times than BG1 and BG2 and only once I played with all mods available. Each time I had the same amount of fun. No mods needed - just the brilliance of vanilla game.
I'm just trying to understand you guys, and to some extent I really do, but your thinking is way too extreme - to the limits of ridiculousness, I dare to say. No mods, no playing.
What is at the limits of ridiculousness here, it's you over-analysing and taking literally my joke.
I find odd that your tastes are so incredibly specific and difficult to fulfill. Even in the present day, when modding games is common, I cannot imagine you could find many a game to play more than once.
Are you serious here? There is plenty of games with mods. The most recent example is Divinity Original Sin. Apparently they didn't have any of the problems preventing Obsidian from supporting mods. And if I'm not mistaken their Kickstarter was even less successful.
What did you do earlier on, in the era of the Gold Box games, before you had even heard of the mods? Did you only ever play a game once then, too?
I didn't play them for long, most of them I don't even remember. BG was the first game I've played for 15+ years. Other games I've played for years without never getting bored are for example Neverwinter Nights and Morrowind. All games with mods.
The most recent example is Divinity Original Sin. Apparently they didn't have any of the problems preventing Obsidian from supporting mods. And if I'm not mistaken their Kickstarter was even less successful.
It was also an entirely different kind of a game, with a different engine - one that may have been better to implement mods from the beginning, rather than forcing the developers to start from scratch if they wanted to add them in because they found out too late that it's not possible. They are absolutely not comparable.
How can a DLC not increase the game's longevity and replay value? It's literally more things to do in the game. It's like an official mod.
That's not enough. Mods have limitless possibilities. A DLC just adds few hours to the gameplay.
Additionally mods allows you to change those aspects of a game that you don't like (especially if you are a modder yourself), bringing it closer to your ideal perfect game. DLCs don't do that.
Besides, as I keep saying, these days, I don't usually buy and/or play games unless they have mods. PoE will most likely accumulate virtual dust on my game library and not because I'm a spoilt child throwing a tantrum, but simply because I will be too busy playing something else.
We live in the age of Steam and GOG sales, and I don't think I'm the only one with several titles in my game libraries waiting to be played, PoE simply went from the top to the bottom of my list of games to play.
It was also an entirely different kind of a game, with a different engine - one that may have been better to implement mods from the beginning, rather than forcing the developers to start from scratch if they wanted to add them in because they found out too late that it's not possible. They are absolutely not comparable.
My point exactly. Obsidian didn't plan in advance for mod support and they should have. They may have chosen the wrong engine. This was very shortsighted of them.
If we are ever to hold games as an art form we must look at them with the same standard as we look at movies. A good movie can pull you back into it for its own merits despite the lack of new scenes or content (Star Wars notwithstanding) and fan-made add-ons. A good game should be able to do the same, and for me it often does.
My point exactly. Obsidian didn't plan in advance for mod support and they should have. They may have chosen the wrong engine. This was very shortsighted of them.
I don't know about that. It could also be they just didn't consider the issue to be that high on their list of priorities: maybe all the potential engines that could have allowed mods would have had other flaws or drawbacks, not worked at all as well with the game they were going for, been glitchy piles of junk, or many other reasons. We can only speculate.
If we are ever to hold games as an art form we must look at them with the same standard as we look at movies. A good movie can pull you back into it for its own merits despite the lack of new scenes or content (Star Wars notwithstanding) and fan-made add-ons. A good game should be able to do the same, and for me it often does.
I disagree, still irrelevant. Just to mention an important difference, you are comparing a passive medium with an active one. I'm not going to comment further on movies.
I don't know about that. It could also be they just didn't consider the issue to be that high on their list of priorities: maybe all the potential engines that could have allowed mods would have had other flaws or drawbacks, not worked at all as well with the game they were going for, been glitchy piles of junk, or many other reasons. We can only speculate.
Many other games, some of them produced with much less funds, show that it is possible to officially support mods, if there is the desire to do so. Again, Obsidian was very shortsighted.
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And I don't think I ever indicated that you had mentioned large groups of backers. My point was that if you are arguing that Obsidian is not listening to their backers regarding moddability, you have to show that a significant number of backers are asking for moddability in the first place. However, if that is not what you are arguing (which you seem to have indicated), then this is indeed a moot point.
Again, yours is an enormously short-sighted viewpoint. Studio interest in developing content for a game never lasts as long as you want it to. The Skyrim community learned this the hard way after Dragonborn, when Bethesda abruptly announced there would be no more DLC for the game, dashing a lot of hopes that they would add features to the game that modders could not.
And again, modding is infrastructure. It's easier to build in before a project is complete than after, and invests the community in carrying on work in the game long after the studio moves on. There are any number of other publishers pushing out that high-quality, quickly exhausted content which you and others seem to love; far fewer that support the modding community. It is disappointing that Obsidian should choose the former path.
I don't see games like blockbuster movies, something to experience once and then file away, to occasionally reference every now and again at a party or gathering. I like it when they have long-term value. Modding is a perfect accessory to games like that - providing long-term value from the technical and development standpoint to compliment a game with long-term value in terms of its thematic and literary depth. It's why games like Baldur's Gate or Alpha Centauri or Morrowind are still so intensely beloved decades after they have been released - the timelessness of their stories fortified by the evergreen renewal offered through modding.
It is now up to Obsidian whether PE will pass into history as footnotes in the history of that exalted company, or as one of their number.
I instead view it as meaning that what in that interview isn't necessarily true, but at the same time not necessarily meaning that it is false. With the exception of the weapons externalization bit (which we now seem to know is false), things seem pretty up in the air; just because we know of one thing that is no longer externalized, doesn't mean that nothing is externalized.
And I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong. Liam might be able to clear up a few things, but I think it likely that none of us will truly know who was right or wrong until the game comes out and people start trying to crack it open.
Had I known this when paying, I would have only paid the standard cost of a PC game, around £40.
That said, there are apparently tools already out there for generic Unity games (for sale, no less, though I have no idea what their capabilities are or if they are even reliable). There is an attempt at creating an unpacker (but not a packer), it's called DisUnity (no idea where it comes from, just did a quick search for 'unity unpacker' on Google but didn't follow any particular link). Of course, it will depend on whether or not Obsidian encrypt their files or have some custom method of packing that the already available tools haven't accounted for.
It would be considerably easier if Obsidian created a sort of Override folder (it is apparently easy to do, and you can load resources directly from a file path or from the internet, but it means writing all the file handling themselves). I'm not sure I would be particularly bothered if it didn't have some inbuilt modularity to its file structure.
Edit: of course, it's easy to sit here and say it would be easy, but they are no doubt on a tight deadline. Adding that stuff, if not already accounted for, will likely mean something else will suffer.
I'm going to be blunt with two points.
The first is that only a minority of users ever use mods. An even smaller minority make them. Modding tools do extend the longevity of a game, but that should never mean a company ships a sub-par product just to cater to said minority.
The second is that frankly, those of you saying Obsidian should just do it clearly don't understand how much money, time and effort would be involved in such a venture. Game development is a heinously expensive, difficult field: Please don't presume you know better than people with decades of experience.
If it was possible to do it before release, they'd have done it. Obsidian have never shied away from mods and mod tools - Josh Sawyer, project lead on Pillars of Eternity and all around swell guy, actually released mods for Fallout: New Vegas. They understand how important mods are to some of their userbase. I'm sure they'll do everything they can post-release.
My last word on modding: I find it disappointing that no strong effort is apparently being made to support it from the outset. Not strongly enough to pull an Oculus and demand my money back, but strongly all the same. Next topic.
I bet, by the time you thoroughly finish the game once or twice there will be some mods you could enjoy in your next playthroughs.
Seriously do you guys really believe that if the game turns out to be a success, the devs will let it to be forgotten? I think they will produce modding suit or at least make mod making easy for the community as much as they can.
They had to temporarily gave up from this for the sake of quality of a full product. I doubt they gave up from it for good.
I don't understand you...it's like if I suddenly stop believing in Torment: Tides of Numenera, when the devs announced that battle will be turn-based after community poll, which was by the way inch close in favor of this solution. I prefer real time combat, but still don't throwing curses at Inxile for pulling a fast one on me.
Have a little faith, do you?
There'll be plenty of replay value in it, as there are in many other games, even without mods. A good game is one where you can never do everything on a single playthrough, and you need no mods to do this.
Don't get me wrong, but if you indeed do, that's just...ridiculous. Don't tell me that you only play games that have mods? Do you prefer playing the game that not entirely matches your taste, but for which community produced tons of mods, than a magnificent game for which mods may or may not eventually pop up?
Take the PST, it's on the IE engine, so theoretically there should be a tons of mods made by the modders, just like with BG1 and BG2. But there are only few, most of them made by one modder. What does it say to me? That the game is so good, that it really no need dozens of mods to last long. To be honest, I finished PST more times than BG1 and BG2 and only once I played with all mods available. Each time I had the same amount of fun. No mods needed - just the brilliance of vanilla game.
I'm just trying to understand you guys, and to some extent I really do, but your thinking is way too extreme - to the limits of ridiculousness, I dare to say. No mods, no playing.
I agree that making a product like this unmoddable is an AWFUL idea. Mods can do wonders for your products longevity and popularity. While it is true that there will be some 'bad' mods, there will also be AMAZING ones. There are also a lot of people who find their calling and gain experience by first modding other peoples games. Some of these people now work for/have their own studios. Every mod can be great or awful, it can depend on the end users preference. But I think we should at least be given the option at some point.
What did you do earlier on, in the era of the Gold Box games, before you had even heard of the mods? Did you only ever play a game once then, too? And like I said before, I am absolutely certain they would do it if they could. Obsidian is smart enough to understand that mods are important - yet for a reason or another, they found it impossible to focus on it. They had their reasons: we may not know of them, but I think we can pretty safely say they were good reasons.
Additionally mods allows you to change those aspects of a game that you don't like (especially if you are a modder yourself), bringing it closer to your ideal perfect game. DLCs don't do that.
Besides, as I keep saying, these days, I don't usually buy and/or play games unless they have mods. PoE will most likely accumulate virtual dust on my game library and not because I'm a spoilt child throwing a tantrum, but simply because I will be too busy playing something else.
We live in the age of Steam and GOG sales, and I don't think I'm the only one with several titles in my game libraries waiting to be played, PoE simply went from the top to the bottom of my list of games to play. Irrelevant. Movies aren't games. They are more than enough for me. Considering than even one of those can keep me busy forever. My point exactly. Obsidian didn't plan in advance for mod support and they should have. They may have chosen the wrong engine. This was very shortsighted of them.