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Most underwhelming party member (BG2)

RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
edited August 2014 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Note this is purely about effectiveness in terms of game mechanics.

As there are limited number of slots for the poll, I have not listed characters that I find are highly effective, but feel free to contradict me and choose other :)
  1. Most underwhelming party member (BG2)121 votes
    1. Mazzy
        5.79%
    2. Yoshimo
        3.31%
    3. Nalia
      11.57%
    4. Hexxat
      15.70%
    5. Viconia
        3.31%
    6. Aerie
        2.48%
    7. Minsc
        3.31%
    8. Cernd
      44.63%
    9. Other (please state who)
        9.92%
«134

Comments

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    I selected Mazzy primarily on account of her weapon proficiencies and complete lack of versatility. The only thing she can do is hit monsters, and due to terrible weapon choices, she cant even do that well. At least with other characters of limited combat effectiveness, like pure thieves, they perform an essential function (albiet one which could be done by Jan or Imoen, who can also cast).

    Starting with grandmastery in shortbow is simply an awful choice. Only the archer kit can be effective as a dedicated archer in BG2, given how heavily archery was nerfed. It also forces her to leave her offhand free, so you might assume that her melee weapon would be a two hander, but no, not only is it a one hander, but it is one of the worst one handers in the game, the shortsword.

    And Mazzy is supposed to be an exceptionally powerful character, based presumably on the fact that she has a handful of special abilities. Her strength ability is nice to tide her over until she gets a strength item, which she really needs because her base strength gives no combat bonuses at all. And the heal is moderately helpful. Remove fear and haste are abilities that every single party has ready access to an area effect version of, so are basically pointless.

    None of these abilities come even close to Korgan's enrage ability, and the supposed penalty of that kit is no penalty at all given that he can do far more damage with the dwarven thrower than any weapon which uses a ranged proficiency, and still hold a shield whilst doing so. The dwarven thrower, which can easily be acquired early on, does 2d4+3 damage, adds the characters strength bonus, and counts as a +3 weapon. It also shares the same proficiency as the Crom faeyr.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    jackjack said:

    Imoen.
    Unless you beeline it to Spellhold, she's woefully under-leveled for the rest of the game, which is part of why I never bring her along.

    Funny, I usually think of Imoen's under-level to be quite charming . Besides, in ToB she'll only be about two levels behind the other mages.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Cernd by a distance. Single class druids are underwhelming. Being a shapeshifter as well is like a kick in the teeth when he is down.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    edited August 2014
    As a result of her constant whining and irritating voice the circus in Waukeen's Promenade recently received a stone statue of an ogre from a mysterious benefactor.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Mhamza said:

    As a result of her constant whining and irritating voice the circus in Waukeen's Promenade recently received a stone statue of an ogre from a mysterious benefactor.

    RandyMcStud said:

    Note this is purely about effectiveness in terms of game mechanics.

    Hmmm....


    In any case, Aerie should not ever be on that list. The power of dual magic access is insane, and cleric spells are much more worthwhile when sped up by a robe of vecna and an arcane Sequencer.

  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    @Dazzu Fair enough but her INT is too low to rely on for scribing scrolls and it seems like she's there just so you can have an obscene amount of spells available. She's also way too fragile, and I like my spellcasters to be able to take a hit. Viconia is an exception because of her magic resistance and the fact that her minus 2 reputation point means its easy to stay below 18 so evil party members won't leave.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Dazzu said:

    Mhamza said:

    As a result of her constant whining and irritating voice the circus in Waukeen's Promenade recently received a stone statue of an ogre from a mysterious benefactor.

    RandyMcStud said:

    Note this is purely about effectiveness in terms of game mechanics.

    Hmmm....


    In any case, Aerie should not ever be on that list. The power of dual magic access is insane, and cleric spells are much more worthwhile when sped up by a robe of vecna and an arcane Sequencer.

    I would have to disagree. There really isnt a lot of synergy between cleric and mage. Whereas other other multiclass combinations provide complementary skill sets, mage/clerics clash; you are either using one half of your character or another.

    You arent, for example, backstabbing with a specialisation bonus and then holding your own in meele as a fighter thief, where a pure thief would simply blow his load with one weaker backstab and be near useless for the rest of the fight.

    You arent wading into meele as a fighter mage, buffed up to make you far more durable than any pure warrior could be, and able to complement your meele abilities with damage spells and crowd control.

    You are either casting a mage spell to the exclusion of casting a cleric spell, or vice versa. There are few real advantages to having one character be able to cast both. A cleric admittedly gains a number of useful defensive mage buffs that are caster only, but has to sacrifice decent health and armour to do so, but a mage gets virtually nothing that couldnt simply be cast by a different member of the party who was a pure cleric. The caster only buffs of clerics are far inferior to those of a mage, and I cant think of many cleric spells I would rather have in my sequencers and contingencies over mage spells.

    By the time Aerie gets 6th level spells, Edwin is spamming fingers of death and dropping 3 skull trap sequencers. When Aerie eventually gets a single 7th level spell slot, Edwin has 4 9th level spell slots. The fact that she can also cast greater restoration once per day (though not at the same time as she is casting any mage spell) is hardly adequate compensation, when Anomen at the same experience level gets 3 7th level spell slots and I think 6 6th level spell slots (vs Aerie's 2). He can also buff up with DUHM and wade into meele with grandmastery in his weapon of choice.

    Aerie is not substitute for a pure mage. And whilst she is passable as your main healer, the other two clerics do the job a lot better, and Anomen is a decent tank and meele damage dealer too.

    As for the robe of Vecna, I cant really see myself giving this to Aerie with her handful of high level spells over Neera or Edwin who can dump a huge arsenal of offensive spells inside one casting of improved alacrity.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    I think Hexxat may have suffered from excessively high expectations, at least from me. That 20 strength just doesn't do much on a thief when you still only get one attack per round. In retrospect, I should probably have tried to get her to dual-wield with Improved Haste if I wanted her to have a respectable damage output, but oh well. In the long run, none of her vampire quirks really do much to set her apart from a generic single-class thief. That doesn't make her the weakest NPC in my opinion, but I gave her my vote because the gap between my expectations and what I got was so jarring.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    the_spyder said:

    @RandyMcStud - I think the synergy that is being spoken of is the ability to sequence/contingency both divine and arcane spells. There are some pretty significant combinations there.

    Add to that a selection of almost every spell in the game and you have a pretty powerful character. Shame she is so annoying.

    Which divine spells would you want to sequence though? Thats a serious question not a dig. I honestly dont see any spells that would be particularly valuable in a sequencer or contingency, but perhaps I am missing something.

    As for access to every spell in the game, whilst having access to both arcane divine spells is obviously very useful, I just dont see why it is particularly useful to have access to both sets of spells on a single character. On the contrary, as you can only cast one spell per round, it is better to spread out your access to spells more evenly. That way you can cast both a divine and an arcane spell in a single round, not one or the other, and more of the spells you will cast will be of a high level.

    Plus, with so few high level spell slots, Aerie has plenty of known spells, but not that many memorised, which in practice makes her somewhat less versatile. With Edwin, I can afford to memorise somewhat situational spells, because I still have plenty of available spell slots for the frequently used spells. With Aerie, I have to devote my spell slots exclusively to the frequently cast spells, and eschew the situational ones. I would never have Aerie memorise 3 lower resists for example, but I frequently do with Edwin.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Ok, but its only a -2 to thac0 and saves on a single target. That will increase a target's likelihood to fail a save by 10%, not bad, but eliminating the cast time of one moderate debuff isnt enough to compensate for the shortcomings of the class imo.

    As for contingency heal, mislead and protection from magic weapons will generally be better when taking heavy damage than a full heal, given how small a pure caster's health pool is.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    Contingency Remove Paralysis seems like it might come in handy every now and then. There's also Contingency Sanctuary, although I see less use for that because your Mage/Cleric has better things to do than tank anyways, so I'd have to wonder how you screwed up badly enough to need it.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @RandyMcStud - there's no question that "as a wizard" Edwin totally rocks. And comparing Aerie "As a wizard", you are right, Edwin is going to win. Just saying that the combination of Wizard/Cleric adds some synergies that you don't get otherwise. The sheer number of spells available makes her ideal for any situation you care to name. And there are sequences/contingencies that don't exist otherwise.

    And the number of spells she can cast is almost unparallelled as well. She gets wizard spell progression AND Cleric spell progression. In later game play she will (numerically) out cast anyone else, even being a lower level, by a significant margin.

    Plus, there are ways to make her so that she can take a hit (Stoneskin, mirror image, etc... not to mention the belt of Constitution). She just doesn't make a good front liner or tank, but then neither does Edwin.

    Not trying to convince you that she is 'All that', merely that there are benefits to the combination.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    RandyMcStud said:


    Which divine spells would you want to sequence though? Thats a serious question not a dig. I honestly dont see any spells that would be particularly valuable in a sequencer or contingency, but perhaps I am missing something.

    Well for instance they work really well if you want to shapeshift with her. Whether that is giving the Polymorph Self's spider form a strength boost through Draw Upon Holy Might, or to doing likewise with one of the Shapechange forms much, much later into the game when she gets access to level 9 mages spells.

    With Spell Sequencer you could do a triple casting of Holy Smite. If nothing else its likely a lot more party friendly than doing the same with Skull Trap. Its also good if you need to throw down party buffs (Protection From Evil 10'Radius, Defensive Harmony, Haste, etc) on the fly in the event that they are dispelled.
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    Indeed, even fake Hexxat, with her dreadful stats would have been more interesting, albeit as Clara and not Hexxat.
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @Meanbunny‌, I don't get the scorn...especially considering Dorn (he's pretty out there if you do a play-through with him). I've only done one play-through with Hexxat, but I found her quests compelling, her thieving abilities very very useful (unfortunately, my charname was a thief=>mage, so he was overshadowed completely in the thieving aspect and in retrospect, completely gimped in the mage aspect). Her stats are awesome without the Cloak of Dragomir on. Her summoning ability was very useful on many many fights (after you get past the early levels), though I only successfully used Blood Drain a few times and Dominate I had found near worthless (which is regrettable, as they talk it up early in the game).

    People dislike pure thieves for powergaming, I get that, but 20 str and 20 dex can make for some good backstabs, plus the HLA's....not that bad.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Absolutely, Aerie is NOT going to go well as the only wizard in your group. However, particularly later in SoA and into ToB, the additional arcane spell casting that she brings in addition to her Divine casting can make all the difference in the world.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    @RandyMcStud , your views may be correct if you treat Aerie as a weaker mage/ weaker cleric . That is not the best way to play a multiclasses C/M.

    Sure, at level 14th Edwin will be casting fingers of death and skull traps , but Aerie at level 10/11 will have 32 wizard spells and at least 35 priest spells f. She can heal, summon elementals, cast buffers, disabling and protection spells of all kinds. As a backup character, she can have an essential role.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Cernd is a very good SoA companion (even if I play solo, I know a lot about this, and I sometimes don't play ToB... so...), when he gets to level 15 he'll have lots of Spellslots (no guarantee they are useful because of his spell choices :p), plus Greater Werewolf form is actually pretty cool, and he can get a pretty decent AC without much tinkering.

    Yoshimo is a great character, both for SoA and (download this to keep him until the end of the game) ToB, even more if he is dual-classed to Fighter at level 19 (or 21, which is also a pretty good build) after Spellhold (I'm assuming the player is using the Keeping Yoshimo mod and that the player has around 4 millions XP per character by that point), make him dual-wield Katanas (or maybe scimitars, or even short swords) with Grand-mastery (and I still haven't started talking about _backstabbing_ with them) and Improved Haste plus some others fine buffs, and he'll be the best melee NPC in the game, since he is also able to backstab and set Special Traps, which are also pretty deadly (if you prefer damaging traps instead of disabling traps dual-class him at level 15, trust me, that will do good to).

    Mazzy is basically the best vanilla Fighter (after Sarevok, but you get him pretty late in the game), she's beast with Shortbows, and dual-wielding Shortswords isn't something to be left unconsidered (even if piercing damage sucks), she can deal pretty good damage, and she has good natural DEX, which gives her a pretty good base AC. She isn't as good as Yoshimo in power gaming terms, but she's probably the second best Fighter (after Anomen) in terms of defense.

    Nalia is a mage that is able to use Shortbows and Elven Chain Mail, she's actually a pretty good Party-Mage, even better than Imoen since you can have her for the whole game.

    I'd say the worst character, in power gaming means is Imoen, but since she's a Thief->Mage, which is a very good class, she actually is pretty good, but comparing to other characters, without taking classes into account, she's the worst of all (plus I never liked her character concept and she's a walking plothole so...).
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    elminster said:

    RandyMcStud said:


    Which divine spells would you want to sequence though? Thats a serious question not a dig. I honestly dont see any spells that would be particularly valuable in a sequencer or contingency, but perhaps I am missing something.

    Well for instance they work really well if you want to shapeshift with her. Whether that is giving the Polymorph Self's spider form a strength boost through Draw Upon Holy Might, or to doing likewise with one of the Shapechange forms much, much later into the game when she gets access to level 9 mages spells.

    With Spell Sequencer you could do a triple casting of Holy Smite. If nothing else its likely a lot more party friendly than doing the same with Skull Trap. Its also good if you need to throw down party buffs (Protection From Evil 10'Radius, Defensive Harmony, Haste, etc) on the fly in the event that they are dispelled.
    Ok those are fairly useful. Though if you have Aerie, (or a high wis mage) a good option is limited wish and then pick "I want to make my party invulnerable" (it gives everyone in the party minor globe of invulnerability). Then sequencer and skull trap is both party friendly and a lot more dangerous than holy smite.

    But using DUHM for shapeshifts is one I handnt thought of, but I do remember polymorphy self and using DUHM Bhaalspawn power being very effective for some shapes, like flind and sword spider.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    DJKajuru said:

    @RandyMcStud , your views may be correct if you treat Aerie as a weaker mage/ weaker cleric . That is not the best way to play a multiclasses C/M.

    Sure, at level 14th Edwin will be casting fingers of death and skull traps , but Aerie at level 10/11 will have 32 wizard spells and at least 35 priest spells f. She can heal, summon elementals, cast buffers, disabling and protection spells of all kinds. As a backup character, she can have an essential role.

    Well in terms of the number of spell slots, I will grant you she has plenty. But mostly they are low level. I seldom end up resting on account of running out of cure light wounds. I am much more likely to rest having run out of Abi Dalzim's for example.

    Dont get me wrong, Aerie is by no means the least effective character in combat. But I dont think cleric/mage is a combination which compliments each other nearly as well as other multi classes (and certainly cant hold a candle to some dual classes), nor do I think Aerie compares favourably to Anomen, who is a much better cleric and fighter. And even as Cleric/Mages go, she isnt that good, an illusionist/cleric gnome with decent stats could have far more health, better saves and more mage spell slots.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    RandyMcStud said:

    Note this is purely about effectiveness in terms of game mechanics.

    uhhhh......


    oops?

    *runs away*
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