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Most underwhelming party member (BG2)

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  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Mazzy
    CrevsDaak said:


    Mazzy is basically the best vanilla Fighter (after Sarevok, but you get him pretty late in the game), she's beast with Shortbows, and dual-wielding Shortswords isn't something to be left unconsidered (even if piercing damage sucks), she can deal pretty good damage, and she has good natural DEX, which gives her a pretty good base AC. She isn't as good as Yoshimo in power gaming terms, but she's probably the second best Fighter (after Anomen) in terms of defense.

    Well dual wielding faces the problem of preventing you from using the weapon she has grandmastery in, unless you are ok with constantly switching out to the inventory screen. Also, if you want at least 2 stars in two weapon fighting before using it, the earliest you can get than and grandmastery is level 24.

    And even with grandmastery and the best bow in the game, she does 1d8+7 per hit as an archer. That simply isnt competitive. Korgan can use a much easier to obtain throwing hammer to do 2d4+12 per hit, even with his base strength (though granted with one fewer attack per round) and still hold a shield.

    And yes she is the best vanilla fighter in the game after Sarevok, but she is the ONLY vanilla fighter in the game after Sarevok, so that might be considered damning with faint praise :P.

    As for being the second best fighter in the game in terms of defence, compare her to Korgan. They both get nice racial saves, and she has 3 more armour class from dexterity, though 3 fewer hitpoints per level from constitution. However, even ignoring the gauntlets of dexterity, Korgan can wear a shield, several of which provide an equal or larger bonus than 3 armour, and which provide some useful secondary benefits, like elemental resistances, immunities, or missile and beholder ray reflection. And crucially, Korgan has enrage. That is another +2 armour +15 HP, and most importantly, immunity to virtually every disabling effect in the game. And his 12 intelligence means he can survive 2 hits against mind flayers compared to Mazzy's 1 hit. So I would say that Korgan is easily a better tank.

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Mazzy
    CrevsDaak said:


    Nalia is a mage that is able to use Shortbows and Elven Chain Mail, she's actually a pretty good Party-Mage, even better than Imoen since you can have her for the whole game.

    I'd say the worst character, in power gaming means is Imoen, but since she's a Thief->Mage, which is a very good class, she actually is pretty good, but comparing to other characters, without taking classes into account, she's the worst of all (plus I never liked her character concept and she's a walking plothole so...).

    But Imoen is actually a passable thief, freeing up another party slot. With Nalia, you still need another dedicated thief. That difference alone makes Imoen far superior.

    dstoltzfusArdulFenghoang
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Dazzu said:

    There's also Minor Sequencers for bless/chant, a nice fast +2 dmg/To Hit/Saving Throws while giving -1 to nearby enemies. These stack with Doom, Prot Evil 10, and Malison.


    The problem to me sounds like it comes from trying to use Aerie as your only mage or priest: DON'T! By all that is overpowered, do not, unless you're doing a 3 or 4 man party. Simply put, Aerie is an extra source of endless magic. To compare her to Edwin isn't very fair since comparing even Charname is ludicrous.

    Aerie is your backup artillery and backup bandage, and at that role, she does great.

    Saying that she can only cast 1 spell at a time... I don't understand the complaint. The same can be said for any spellcaster.

    A Cleric/Fighter cannot swing his blunt weapon (or sling) while casting his spells, nor can a F/M get his Tenser's/Imp Haste/etc up while cutting through enemies.

    But multiclassed fighter/casters shouldnt be spending much time in combat casting spells. You use your spells to prebuff to make you into a stronger fighter, and to cast short cast time spells which are unlikely to be interrupted on the front lines and will allow you to attack in the same round. A protection from magic weapons or chain contingency-> 3x horrid wiltings doesnt stop you meleeing in the same round. That is not to say you should absolutely never cast spells with a significant cast time in combat as a fighter/caster, but it isnt what you should spend most of your time doing. If you are, you might as well be a pure caster.

    Clerics and Mages on the other hand, only do one thing well: cast spells. So you are going to be chain casting in combat if you are a cleric/mage, and therefore, the fact that you are limited to one spell per round does represent a significant limitation for the multiclass. Whatever cleric spells you are using is instead of a mage spells and vice versa. That is why the synergy between the two classes is so much weaker than it is between say, a fighter thief or a fighter mage.

    Stealth and backstab and traps compliment a fighter's melee abilties well, and a fighters melee abilities certainly compliment a thief's abilties well, who are otherwise rather limited in combat. And mage spells compliment both classes extremely well. A fighter with fireshields, stoneskin, mirror image, blur, spirit armour, mislead and protection from magical weapons is FAR more durable than any pure warrior ever could be. And if you dont mind the cheese, mislead and haste makes for an extremely powerful backstabber. On top of that, the main role for a thief is outside of combat, so having spells to cast in combat makes them a lot more useful.

    But a mage is no better a mage for being able to cast cleric spells, and a cleric is no better a cleric for being able to cast mage spells. In fact they are far worse mages and clerics because the loose the MAJORITY of their high level spell slots in order to be multiclassed. So whereas a fighter/mage or thief/mage can be viewed as a more powerful and more versitile fighter or thief, and cleric/mage is simply a sub par cleric and sup par mage in one character.

    And another point to bare in mind: not only are fighters and thieves complimented much better by casters than casters are by each other, they sacrafice far less by multiclassing. Beyond 13th level for both fighters and thieves, there is no major progression for either class. Even the HLAs are gained at the same total experience, and they get about as many HLAs in total. But casters gain more of their most valuable spell slots well into their 20s. Therefore, they sacrifice far more by multiclassing.

    Post edited by RandyMcStud on
  • ItstucktwiceItstucktwice Member Posts: 182
    edited August 2014
    Cernd
    With a bit of inventory management/potion use, Nalia is a competent enough thief to cover the entire series. It might be a bit of extra effort, but you can definitely beat the game with her as the best dedicated thief.

    In terms of Mazzy being underwhelming, it is all about getting her early enough so that she doesn't have EXTRA proficiency points wasted on short swords. You use her as a ranged support character until she gets enough levels to put pips into a useful proficiency. The fact remains that she is only one of 3 pure fighters in the game and two of them are evil(at least initially.) After remedial points are put into a useful proficiency, Mazzy is the second best fighter until TOB, where she slips to third.

    Fenghoang
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,158
    edited August 2014
    Other (please state who)


    And even with grandmastery and the best bow in the game, she does 1d8+7 per hit as an archer. That simply isnt competitive. Korgan can use a much easier to obtain throwing hammer to do 2d4+12 per hit, even with his base strength (though granted with one fewer attack per round) and still hold a shield.


    Its actually more than a 1 APR difference. With normal haste active at say level 10 she can have 5 APR compared to 3 APR for Korgan when he is throwing.

    Tuigan Bow (grants an additional APR over a regular shortbow and gives +1 damage) + Acid Arrows + Grandmastery = 8 to 13 damage per hit (+ an average of 2 acid damage).

    10 to 15 damage is an average of 12.5 damage. Times that by 5 is 62.5 damage/round.

    With improved haste active (which can come when a mage gets access to it at level 12) at this level she would have 9 APR, or 112.5 average damage/round.

    But for arguments sake lets just say she had to resort to using the quite easily acquired quiver of plenty +1 instead of acid arrows.

    1 to 6 damage, + 1 (Tuigan), +5 from grandmastery is 7 to 13 damage/ round, or an average of 10 damage. With 5 APR that is an average of 50 damage and with 9 APR that is an average of 90 damage.

    At level 10 Korgan has 5-11 damage from the hammer, +3 strength damage, + 2 from berserk, and +2 from specialization. That is 12 to 21 damage. That is an average of 16.5 damage. Times that by 3 is 49.5 damage.

    With improved haste active he can have 4 APR at this level with the warhammer being thrown. That is an average of 66 damage. Even with 19 strength from a belt this would still would be 82 damage (which is still a lot of damage but not quite what Mazzy can dish out at this point).

    You basically would want him using the returning throwing axes instead until this point if you really want to challenge Mazzy in terms of ranged damage.

    But getting back to the hammer. At level 15 with 19 strength (belt) he would do 5-11 damage from the hammer, + 7 (strength), +2 (berserk), +4 (high mastery) damage, or 18 to 24 damage. An average of 21 damage (110 damage with 5APR from Improved Haste).

    Its not until around when Korgan gets grandmastery in warhammers (level 18) that he will have surpassed her from a ranged damage standpoint when using warhammers (before this he can do that with the warhammer when using some of the more powerful strength boosting potions but they are rare enough to make it so that you can't use them with every battle). With 19 strength (belt) he would do 2d4+3, + 7 (strength), +2 (berserk), +5 (grandmastery) damage, or 19 to 25 damage. An average of 22 damage (132 damage with 6APR from Improved Haste). The 21 strength granting belt found in the Koa Toa tunnels would also grant him an additional 12 damage with 6 apr.


    But at that point from a non-total damage standpoint she has other uses. You can buy up to 80 arrows of dispelling from the fletcher in Athkatla. One of these will drop all of a mages combat protections, which if nothing else is very handy (it won't work against liches but it is useful especially against dragons in my experience). But the elemental damage arrows she can use (acid, fire, eventually cold, lightning through gesen) are handy for causing casting disruption. Plus even just the firing of 5-10 arrows/round is pretty disrupting towards enemies trying to move anywhere. Finally she herself at that stage can have at least mastery in a weapon other than short swords, so at that point even she could be throwing that warhammer pretty well (because at the end of the day we are talking about damage amounts that will kill most enemies in a few rounds).

    Post edited by elminster on
    Abi_DalzimJuliusBorisov
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Well to nitpick, the warhammer is dwarf only, so no, she cant throw it effectively regardless of her proficiencies :P. Also, some of your calculations are off. The tugian bow using arrows without a damage bonus with grandmastery has a range of 7-12, not 7-13, and Korgan at level 10 using the dwarven thrower (he recieves +4 damage from strength) would do: 2d4+11 damage when enraged, which is 13 to 19 damage, an average of 16 per hit.

    And one major consideration is the enemies for which you require +3 weapons. They are hardly trivial in number, and include some of the more dangerous enemies, and some of the enemies which most rely on physical damage to beat, due to very high magic resistance, including demons and golems. Against these, you have two options: Tansheron's bow, which does very low damage, and the Gesen bow, which is hardly a high damage weapon and by the time you have that, Korgan would very likely have grandmastery in warhammers.

    Further, its dubious whether or not calculations with acid arrows are sensible for a dedicated archer, given they are quite finite and a dedicated archer will use a lot of ammo. If finite resources are part of calculations, its only fair to make calculations using strength potions for Korgan, which can grant up to +12 damage.

    Enraged, with improved haste and a storm giant strength potion, a level 10 Korgan will do 5apr at 1d6+19 damage with the +2 throwing axe, for an average of 112.5 damage per round, exactly the same as Mazzy with the tugian bow and acid arrows at the same level. Now how does a level 10 mazzy with the shortsword of backstabbing measure up against a level 10 Korgan with stonefire? :P

    The key point is that ranged combat is Mazzy's strength and Korgan's weakness, and even in this regard, he has several advantages, eclipsing her entirely in the long run. And when whirlwinds start becoming available, its not even a close call. And when it comes to meele damage and defensive capabilities, its not a close call either: Korgan is clearly stronger.

  • JenzafarJenzafar Member Posts: 303
    edited August 2014
    Other (please state who)
    I thought about this one for a while and I can't answer.

    I could have said Cernd, but I'm using him now for the first time in years and I'm really enjoying the higher level druid spells.

    I could have said Mazzy, but the truth is I have a tendency to forget she exists and never really learned how to exploit her skills properly (yet?)

    I could say Imoen or Hexxat--well, maybe I can still say Hexxat, because at least Imoen has spells, and I don't have to play around with cloaks and daylight with her. I don't expect badassery from thieves anyway. Just find traps and open locks and if they can do anything else, that's great.

    I could say Wilson, but he's more of a novelty, isn't he? Still, I'd have liked him to get special skills over time. So maybe that's my answer.

    Someone in another thread once said that if you feel a character sucks, you just haven't learned how to properly play that person yet. I think that's really true.

    kaguanaelminsterJuliusBorisov
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Jenzafar said:


    Someone in another thread once said that if you feel a character sucks, you just haven't learned how to properly play that person yet. I think that's really true.

    Evidently that person never played Baldur's Gate 1.

    As terrific as was to have no dex and strength bonus, and the truly awful spell selection of druids in BG1, and a shapeshift ability that treating you as non proficient in your creature weapons, I came to the conclusion that Jaheira sucked.

    Oh and then there was "Evocation is my opposition school" Xan. Awesome. On the plus side, he did have a nice moon blade if for some reason you wanted to go into meele with a single class mage's thac0, armour class and single digit hitpoints. But for those of who were sane, he sucked too.

    Faldorn, Tiax and Yeslik also left something to be desired. Safana and Skie, whilst not strictly bad thieves, were simply not as good as Imoen who you pick up right at the start.

  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    edited August 2014
    Aerie

    Jenzafar said:


    Someone in another thread once said that if you feel a character sucks, you just haven't learned how to properly play that person yet. I think that's really true.

    Evidently that person never played Baldur's Gate 1.

    As terrific as was to have no dex and strength bonus, and the truly awful spell selection of druids in BG1, and a shapeshift ability that treating you as non proficient in your creature weapons, I came to the conclusion that Jaheira sucked.

    Oh and then there was "Evocation is my opposition school" Xan. Awesome. On the plus side, he did have a nice moon blade if for some reason you wanted to go into meele with a single class mage's thac0, armour class and single digit hitpoints. But for those of who were sane, he sucked too.

    Faldorn, Tiax and Yeslik also left something to be desired. Safana and Skie, whilst not strictly bad thieves, were simply not as good as Imoen who you pick up right at the start.

    I disagree on Yeslick and Tiax. Yeslick has dispel magic and if you give him the guantlets of dexterity and a few strength enhanching spells, which he has available, then he becomes a really good tank. The only downside is that you have to save some gear for him when you're about to go to the Cloakwood Mines.

    Tiax may have low wisdom but he's still a decent enough cleric. He has Summon Ghast which is wonderful against basilisks and makes for good cannon fodder, especially since it has a chance to paralyze.

    He's a passable thief, and though his proficiency points are in clubs and staves he can still backstab.

    jackjack
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    Cernd
    Comparing NPCs in isolation can make for an interesting discussion, but that is not how they are played. They are part of a group and therefore party constituency is an important factor. The fact is that some groups would benefit by Anomen as the cleric, for others Aerie is clearly the better choice. It completely depends on who surrounds them, the available gear, and the tactics of the player.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,158
    edited August 2014
    Other (please state who)

    Well to nitpick, the warhammer is dwarf only, so no, she cant throw it effectively regardless of her proficiencies :P. Also, some of your calculations are off. The tugian bow using arrows without a damage bonus with grandmastery has a range of 7-12, not 7-13, and Korgan at level 10 using the dwarven thrower (he recieves +4 damage from strength) would do: 2d4+11 damage when enraged, which is 13 to 19 damage, an average of 16 per hit.

    And one major consideration is the enemies for which you require +3 weapons. They are hardly trivial in number, and include some of the more dangerous enemies, and some of the enemies which most rely on physical damage to beat, due to very high magic resistance, including demons and golems. Against these, you have two options: Tansheron's bow, which does very low damage, and the Gesen bow, which is hardly a high damage weapon and by the time you have that, Korgan would very likely have grandmastery in warhammers.

    Further, its dubious whether or not calculations with acid arrows are sensible for a dedicated archer, given they are quite finite and a dedicated archer will use a lot of ammo. If finite resources are part of calculations, its only fair to make calculations using strength potions for Korgan, which can grant up to +12 damage.

    Enraged, with improved haste a storm giant strength potion, a level 10 Korgan will do 5apr at 1d6+19 damage with the +2 throwing axe, for an average of 112.5 damage per round, exactly the same as Mazzy with the tugian bow and acid arrows at the same level. Now how does a level 10 mazzy with the shortsword of backstabbing measure up against a level 10 Korgan with stonefire? :P

    The key point is that ranged combat is Mazzy's strength and Korgan's weakness, and even in this regard, he has several advantages, eclipsing her entirely in the long run. And when whirlwinds start becoming available, its not even a close call. And when it comes to meele damage and defensive capabilities, its not a close call either: Korgan is clearly stronger.

    You are right about some things (the damage miscalculations on my part of negligible) but either way if we are talking about the dwarven thrower Mazzy does do more damage than Korgan for awhile. Eventually he will outdamage her but by that point fighters take a backseat to mages anyways.

    In SoA alone Arledrian (the guy above Gaelan Bayle) sells 240 acid arrows and Bernard sells 400. At 20 gold an arrow that works out to be about 13,000 gold, which is probably around 3000 or so higher than what you'll pay for the 19 strength belt. Of course that number of arrows is in addition to 20 in the D'Arnise Keep, 40 in the cottage in the druid grove, and 40 in the Asylum. Either way its very, very easy (especially in a larger group where other characters are doing damage) to make it through SoA without using this many arrows.

    Compare that to the 3 Storm Giant potions you can buy from Roger (and 1 you can find in the temple of Talos). That is basically it for those until you make it into the underdark. Before the underdark you can buy 3 cloud giant strength potions (roger) and 1 fire giant strength potion (from Arledrian) but that is it for those. In chapter 2/3 you can buy 11 potions of frost giant strength (3 from roger, 1 from the adventure mart, 2 from Cragmoon, 5 from the smithy in trademeet), so those would work to a degree.

    With potions of frost giant strength with the throwing axe +2 it would be 1d6 + 18 (+2 from enchantment, +9 from strength, + 2 from enrage, + 5 from grandmastery). Average of 21.5 damage x 4 is 86 damage. So initially he would be doing more damage but with Improved Haste and in the fights where he couldn't use these potions (the majority of fights at that point) she would do either about the same (with haste) or a lot more damage (with Improved Haste).

    Either way there aren't that many enemies at that point that can survive 60-70 damage/round, especially given your other characters will be dealing damage as well.

    Anyways, given the limited amount of strength boosting potions there are for the portion of the game I was talking about I think not including them was fair on my part.

    There are relatively few enemies in the game who are immune to +1 weapons (much less +2). Normal weapon immunity is pretty common (since vampires and liches have that). Those that end up being immune to these weapons (particularly in SoA) tend to be immune to a lot more than just that (like the lesser demon lord in the underdark who is immune to all weapons less than +5) or they've cast something like PFMW.

    Post edited by elminster on
    jackjackJuliusBorisov
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    elminster said:

    Well to nitpick, the warhammer is dwarf only, so no, she cant throw it effectively regardless of her proficiencies :P. Also, some of your calculations are off. The tugian bow using arrows without a damage bonus with grandmastery has a range of 7-12, not 7-13, and Korgan at level 10 using the dwarven thrower (he recieves +4 damage from strength) would do: 2d4+11 damage when enraged, which is 13 to 19 damage, an average of 16 per hit.

    And one major consideration is the enemies for which you require +3 weapons. They are hardly trivial in number, and include some of the more dangerous enemies, and some of the enemies which most rely on physical damage to beat, due to very high magic resistance, including demons and golems. Against these, you have two options: Tansheron's bow, which does very low damage, and the Gesen bow, which is hardly a high damage weapon and by the time you have that, Korgan would very likely have grandmastery in warhammers.

    Further, its dubious whether or not calculations with acid arrows are sensible for a dedicated archer, given they are quite finite and a dedicated archer will use a lot of ammo. If finite resources are part of calculations, its only fair to make calculations using strength potions for Korgan, which can grant up to +12 damage.

    Enraged, with improved haste a storm giant strength potion, a level 10 Korgan will do 5apr at 1d6+19 damage with the +2 throwing axe, for an average of 112.5 damage per round, exactly the same as Mazzy with the tugian bow and acid arrows at the same level. Now how does a level 10 mazzy with the shortsword of backstabbing measure up against a level 10 Korgan with stonefire? :P

    The key point is that ranged combat is Mazzy's strength and Korgan's weakness, and even in this regard, he has several advantages, eclipsing her entirely in the long run. And when whirlwinds start becoming available, its not even a close call. And when it comes to meele damage and defensive capabilities, its not a close call either: Korgan is clearly stronger.

    You are right about some things (the damage miscalculations on my part of negligible) but either way if we are talking about the dwarven thrower Mazzy does do more damage than Korgan for awhile. Eventually he will outdamage her but by that point fighters take a backseat to mages anyways.

    In SoA alone Arledrian (the guy above Gaelan Bayle) sells 240 acid arrows and Bernard sells 400. At 20 gold an arrow that works out to be about 13,000 gold, which is probably around 3000 or so higher than what you'll pay for the 19 strength belt. Of course that number of arrows is in addition to 20 in the D'Arnise Keep, 40 in the cottage in the druid grove, and 40 in the Asylum. Either way its very, very easy (especially in a larger group where other characters are doing damage) to make it through SoA without using this many arrows.

    Compare that to the 3 Storm Giant potions you can buy from Roger (and 1 you can find in the temple of Talos). That is basically it for those until you make it into the underdark. Before the underdark you can buy 3 cloud giant strength potions (roger) and 1 fire giant strength potion (from Arledrian) but that is it for those. In chapter 2/3 you can buy 11 potions of frost giant strength (3 from roger, 1 from the adventure mart, 2 from Cragmoon, 5 from the smithy in trademeet), so those would work to a degree.

    With potions of frost giant strength with the throwing axe +2 it would be 1d6 + 18 (+2 from enchantment, +9 from strength, + 2 from enrage, + 5 from grandmastery). Average of 21.5 damage x 4 is 86 damage. So initially he would be doing more damage but with Improved Haste and in the fights where he couldn't use these potions (the majority of fights at that point) she would do either about the same (with haste) or a lot more damage (with Improved Haste).

    Either way there aren't that many enemies at that point that can survive 60-70 damage/round, especially given your other characters will be dealing damage as well.

    Anyways, given the limited amount of strength boosting potions there are for the portion of the game I was talking about I think not including them was fair on my part.

    There are relatively few enemies in the game who are immune to +1 weapons (much less +2). Normal weapon immunity is pretty common (since vampires and liches have that). Those that end up being immune to these weapons (particularly in SoA) tend to be immune to a lot more than just that (like the lesser demon lord in the underdark who is immune to all weapons less than +5) or they've cast something like PFMW.
    Ok well 740 arrows is 148 combat rounds at 5apr. That isnt easily enough to get you through the game as a dedicated archer. I remember playing Tutu with an archer kit, which is a shorter game, and I bought a stack of 2400 arrows at the start (a mod allowed infinite stacking, and they sold 120 per stack from vendors, so it was only 20 gold). It came far short of lasting me the entire game. Not only that, but enemies died in far fewer arrows shot by an elven archer in BG tutu than they do to Mazzy in BG2, for two reasons. Firstly and most obviously, enemies have a lot more hit points in BG2 than BGtutu. Secondly, with the much higher damage modifiers on bows and ammo, the archery kit bonuses, the fact you could get grandmastery as early as level 3 (tutu allows all 4 starting pips to go into a single weapon), and the fact that you can get the gloves of weapons specialisation much earlier, archers actually hit significantly harder in BGtutu, than Mazzy does in BG2. My archer spent the majority of the game doing 1d6+12 just with normal arrows, and up to 3d6+13 with acid arrows. That means the normal arrows of my elven archer harder than acid arrows fired by Mazzy, and yet in shorter game with much squishier enemies, I used thousands of arrows.

    So I think it is rather optimistic to expect 740 arrows to last you the entire game as a dedicated archer, if you are using her in most fights.

    Also, consider the damage Korgan does at level 10 with the throwing axe +2 with enrage and improved haste when using strength potions: 102.5 with stone, 107.5 with frost, 112.5 with fire, 117.5 with cloud and 122.5 with storm. So there are 5 types of potions that allow Korgan to do comparable (within 10% either side) damage to mazzy with tugian and acid arrows and improved haste, even at level 10. And between all 5 types of potions, which last 3 hours each if I recall, I am pretty sure you could get more than 148 combat rounds out of those potions, even allowing for the fact that you wont be in combat for a significant portion of the potions' durations. So I dont think it is true to say they are more scarce than acid arrows.

    And if we talk about combat without finite items, then Korgan with 19 strength at level 10 will do 97.5 damage per round, vs Mazzy doing 87.5 per round with the quiver of plenty. And the gap widens further when you do need higher enchantment levels, which isnt all that rare.

    And I would reiterate the point that this is comparing Mazzy to Korgan in the most favourable light. Mazzy starts off roughly equal with Korgan as a ranged combatant, somewhat inferior defensively and vastly inferior as melee (or vs any kind of enemy that makes heavy use of the abilities enrage grants immunity to). Over the course of the game, Korgan overtakes her in ranged combat, and she never catches up in melee and defence. She is also more hassle to get in the first place, and is advertised in the manual as being unusually powerful.

  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    edited August 2014
    Hexxat
    I still didn't get why you compare Mazzy which is a Lawful Good halfling to Korgan which is Chaotic Evil dwarf, so they are both fighter so what but they have different race bonus not to talk about that Korgan has a berserker kit while Mazzy have no kit at all. So we got it you like playing powering game it doesn't mean Mazzy isn't a good fighter.

    JLeeJuliusBorisovlolien
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    edited August 2014


    Faldorn, Tiax and Yeslik also left something to be desired.

    Okay, you've gone too far!

    Yeslick might be the strongest vanilla BG1 NPC, yes stronger than Edwin in a world where Stoneskin scrolls don't bleed out of every orifice! That instacast Dispel is a lifesaver and the best innate skill in the game... and Tiax's ghoul is probably second best.

    The undead creature strikes thrice per round, in a game where your fighters cant even do that, is immune to petrification gazes (possibly other gazes,) fear, charm, hold and I believe poison. The things you can cheese out with this thing make me so glad that BG1 NPC project allows you to get Tiax much sooner. Go ahead and fight Mulahey and win easily. Even as a cleric, he cannot turn your ghast and if it stuns him, the fight is a breeze. Same for Bassilus and Bassilisks. Sirens become an absolute joke and you don't have to spend a cent on potions/scrolls to do so. Melee might be a ghoul's biggest weakness, but even then, it gets more APR than Greywulf and Brage.


    That's just the innate skills alone: the characters are definitely viable healers and being short people with high con, their saving throws are through the roof for pre-10 gameplay. Yeslick lacks Dex, just like say, Keldorn does, and nobody will call Keldorn weak, even if you do challenge yourself to not use the Holy Sword.

    Similarly enough, Keldorn's dispel is stronger, BUT Yeslick can still use holy magic and make dead things go boom.


    Meanwhile, Tiax is not in his prime, that's true. C/T's really hit it off well in ToB, when they can do monster backstabs with a +6 weapon that has obscene damage rolls that the game doesn't expect you to roll max damage on... but priest spells fix that. I could o on about C/T's awesomeness and why Orcs are weaker than Gnomes at it despite having more strength and wisdom, but I think Tiax rules... what a waste of a good character to leave him in spell jail!

    Faldorn gets a wolf summon... okay, she really needed like, an Avenger kit, but we cannot hurt the game's integrity... we wouldn't want people to enjoy the kit system too much!

    dstoltzfusFenghoang
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    kaguana said:

    I still didn't get why you compare Mazzy which is a Lawful Good halfling to Korgan which is Chaotic Evil dwarf, so they are both fighter so what but they have different race bonus not to talk about that Korgan has a berserker kit while Mazzy have no kit at all. So we got it you like playing powering game it doesn't mean Mazzy isn't a good fighter.

    Well in a question of which character is most underwhelming, comparing the power of characters who perform equivalent roles strikes me as fairly relevant. Its certainly more relevant than their alignment. Mazzy doesnt simply compare unfavourably to Korgan, for my money, she doesnt hold up well against Keldorn with his dispel and holy avenger, and Valygar dual wielding and backstabbing with the celestial fury. Even Anomen with DUHM makes a better fighter, and he virtually indistinguishable casting power to a pure cleric. Korgan just happens to be the best character to compare because he does pretty much everything she can do better than she does.

    So yes, in my opinion, particularly given that she more of a hassle to get and this is supposed to be justified by her being exceptionally good, Mazzy is a bit underwhelming.

  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    Hexxat
    @RandyMcStud Ok we got it you don't like Mazzy you like Korgan better, so just don't take Mazzy along on your runs, I'm sorry I don't mean to offend or anything but you are repeating yourself and I think we all get your way of thinking here. It doesn't mean other people don't like to take Mazzy along the way and I care about alignment because I don't play evil and Korgan is evil so I won't take him along, but I'm not ragging about it and saying Korgan is no good or anything he is good for what he is that all.

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Dazzu said:


    Faldorn, Tiax and Yeslik also left something to be desired.

    Okay, you've gone too far!
    I do apologise :P.
    Dazzu said:


    Yeslick might be the strongest vanilla BG1 NPC, yes stronger than Edwin in a world where Stoneskin scrolls don't bleed out of every orifice! That instacast Dispel is a lifesaver and the best innate skill in the game... and Tiax's ghoul is probably second best.

    The undead creature strikes thrice per round, in a game where your fighters cant even do that, is immune to petrification gazes (possibly other gazes,) fear, charm, hold and I believe poison. The things you can cheese out with this thing make me so glad that BG1 NPC project allows you to get Tiax much sooner. Go ahead and fight Mulahey and win easily. Even as a cleric, he cannot turn your ghast and if it stuns him, the fight is a breeze. Same for Bassilus and Bassilisks. Sirens become an absolute joke and you don't have to spend a cent on potions/scrolls to do so. Melee might be a ghoul's biggest weakness, but even then, it gets more APR than Greywulf and Brage.


    That's just the innate skills alone: the characters are definitely viable healers and being short people with high con, their saving throws are through the roof for pre-10 gameplay. Yeslick lacks Dex, just like say, Keldorn does, and nobody will call Keldorn weak, even if you do challenge yourself to not use the Holy Sword.

    Similarly enough, Keldorn's dispel is stronger, BUT Yeslick can still use holy magic and make dead things go boom.


    Meanwhile, Tiax is not in his prime, that's true. C/T's really hit it off well in ToB, when they can do monster backstabs with a +6 weapon that has obscene damage rolls that the game doesn't expect you to roll max damage on... but priest spells fix that. I could o on about C/T's awesomeness and why Orcs are weaker than Gnomes at it despite having more strength and wisdom, but I think Tiax rules... what a waste of a good character to leave him in spell jail!

    Faldorn gets a wolf summon... okay, she really needed like, an Avenger kit, but we cannot hurt the game's integrity... we wouldn't want people to enjoy the kit system too much!

    How many times is the difference between a normal dispel and an instant dispel (at a lower caster level) a lifesaver in BG1? I think you are overstating your case a bit. Stongest NPC? Well there is Coran who is a good multiclass and has excellent dexterity and 3 stars in bow, Imoen who is able to dual class to mage and regain her thief levels whilst still maxing locks and traps, Edwin's unrivalled spell casting, and prior to having her proficiencies gimped in enhanced edition, Shar-Teel as the strongest melee fighter. I find it hard to believe that a once per day dispel at a relatively low caster level is enough to elevate Yeslik above any of them, let alone all, even if it is instant cast.

    And aside from that, his stats make him a distinctly subpar fighter, which DUHM doesnt even remedy.

    And the key differences with Keldorn are that A) You can boost both his strength and his dexterity with items in BG2, whereas you cannot in BG1, and there are 4 strength items rather than 1, and 2 are available early on, so having to use a strength booster to make him a decent damage dealer isnt nearly as serious a drawback. B) His dispel isnt great because it is instant cast, it is mainly great because it is cast at double level. Magic, particularly from casters several levels higher than your party (and therefore otherwise undispellable) is a heck of a lot more common in BG2 than it is in BG1, and he gets several casts of dispel a day (and true sight). And C) the Holy Avenger. Take away the Holy avenger and give keldorn a single instant cast dispel per day at normal caster level, and people would indeed say he was a bad character.

    Given that Yeslik isnt a decent fighter, I would rather take one of the pure clerics, which have the additional advantage of being recruitable a lot earlier.

    As for Tiax's ghast. Well it may have more attacks around than a warrior in melee, but given those attacks are at a thac0 of 17 and hit nothing like as hard, I am not sure it compares favourably to a warrior. If I wanted to hold an enemy, I would sooner rely on a spell, which I know when it will land, whereas I have no certainty over when a thac0 17 attack will actually land. Bare in mind that Ghasts dont have that much health, nor impressive armour class. Against any powerful enemy, there is a good chance they will be dead before the ghast even hits, let alone successfully paralyses the enemy. And if it is the kind of creature a ghast could reliably hit, its going to be a trivial fight by the time you can recruit tiax anyway.

    Which is a major problem with Tiax: he cannot be recruited for the majority of the game. Also, he is simply not a viable thief. He doesnt start able to reliably pick locks and remove traps, and you dont get to allocate enough skill points after recruiting him to correct that. So its very hard to justify him being multiclassed into a thief.

    Again, I would always prefer one of the pure clerics, who with better wisdom and higher levels (both from being a single class and not recruited so late into the game), will have sufficient extra spells to cast more hold persons and summon undead with all the aforementioned immunities of the ghast.

    Post edited by RandyMcStud on
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    kaguana said:

    @RandyMcStud Ok we got it you don't like Mazzy you like Korgan better, so just don't take Mazzy along on your runs, I'm sorry I don't mean to offend or anything but you are repeating yourself and I think we all get your way of thinking here. It doesn't mean other people don't like to take Mazzy along the way and I care about alignment because I don't play evil and Korgan is evil so I won't take him along, but I'm not ragging about it and saying Korgan is no good or anything he is good for what he is that all.

    I was replying to someone who answered my posts. I am not insisting that anyone else agrees with what I write or even reads it.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    As for Tiax's ghast. Well it may have more attacks around than a warrior in melee, but given those attacks are at a thac0 of 17 and hit nothing like as hard, I am not sure it compares favourably to a warrior. If I wanted to hold an enemy, I would sooner rely on a spell, which I know when it will land, whereas I have no certainty over when a thac0 17 attack will actually land. Bare in mind that Ghasts dont have that much health, nor impressive armour class. Against any powerful enemy, there is a good chance they will be dead before the ghast even hits, let alone successfully paralyses the enemy. And if it is the kind of creature a ghast could reliably hit, its going to be a trivial fight by the time you can recruit tiax anyway.

    I think you miss something here. Sure you can compare the ghast to one of your hard hitting fighters and the fighter is going to come out ahead. However... the ghast IN ADDITION TO Tiax as a cleric and that's a whole different ball game. He adds an extra combatant to the formula instead of comparing to an existing one. Add in the immunities listed and he makes quite the little joiner.

    As for the "If I wanted to hold an enemy, I would sooner rely on a spell", are you serious? The Ghast doesn't have to try to hold someone, he merely attacks. it isn't a wasted spell if he misses or the opponent makes their saving throw. And you don't have to 'waste' a spell slot on that spell if you don't want. No matter how you slice it, the ability to summon the Ghast is nothing to sneeze at.

    I personally think Tiax is great. I am not gonna compare pissing lengths on him with another NPC because I am not a power gamer. But these arguments put forth why he ISN'T a good NPC just don't hold water.

    jackjack
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy


    As for Tiax's ghast. Well it may have more attacks around than a warrior in melee, but given those attacks are at a thac0 of 17 and hit nothing like as hard, I am not sure it compares favourably to a warrior. If I wanted to hold an enemy, I would sooner rely on a spell, which I know when it will land, whereas I have no certainty over when a thac0 17 attack will actually land. Bare in mind that Ghasts dont have that much health, nor impressive armour class. Against any powerful enemy, there is a good chance they will be dead before the ghast even hits, let alone successfully paralyses the enemy. And if it is the kind of creature a ghast could reliably hit, its going to be a trivial fight by the time you can recruit tiax anyway.

    I think you miss something here. Sure you can compare the ghast to one of your hard hitting fighters and the fighter is going to come out ahead. However... the ghast IN ADDITION TO Tiax as a cleric and that's a whole different ball game. He adds an extra combatant to the formula instead of comparing to an existing one. Add in the immunities listed and he makes quite the little joiner.

    As for the "If I wanted to hold an enemy, I would sooner rely on a spell", are you serious? The Ghast doesn't have to try to hold someone, he merely attacks. it isn't a wasted spell if he misses or the opponent makes their saving throw. And you don't have to 'waste' a spell slot on that spell if you don't want. No matter how you slice it, the ability to summon the Ghast is nothing to sneeze at.

    I personally think Tiax is great. I am not gonna compare pissing lengths on him with another NPC because I am not a power gamer. But these arguments put forth why he ISN'T a good NPC just don't hold water.
    The only reason why I discussed the comparison with a warrior was because the person I was responding to stated that the ghast has three attacks per round, which not even a warrior gets. I never suggested that the ghast was summoned to the exclusion of a party member.

    Yes, it is a free summon. But Branwen has extra third level spell slots with which to summon undead with the same immunities, and more spells with which to cast hold person.

    And yes I am serious about casting hold person being superior to a ghast. Having to rely on a quite fragile melee range monster landing a hit when it has a poor thac0 makes holding with a ghast significantly less reliable than just casting the spell. What enemies, which are not completely trivial by the time you can recruit tiax, and are not immune to hold, could a ghast reliably hit? You have no control over attack roles, you have plenty of control over when you cast your spells.

    I am not saying that summon ghast is a bad ability to have. I never tried to argue that Tiax was bad because he had summon ghast. I am simply responding to the argument that Tiax is a good character, in spite of his very serious shortcomings because of one fairly mediocre summon. If you really want a summon to for crowd control, you would be far better off picking up Faldorn and filling her spell book with summon nymph. Each one of those has many disabling spells, including hold monster which is harder to save against, effects more enemies, and doesnt require you to land an attack.

    And I would say that the arguments against him do hold water. He is multiclassed as a cleric/thief, but is a wholly inadequate thief. So you basically have a lower level cleric with a crappy wisdom score, who you are unable to obtain until the game is mostly complete, and who likely be tens of thousands of experience behind the rest of the party when you get him. Is the ability to summon a ghast enough to redeem his shortcomings? Not in my view.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @RandyMcStud - in what way is a "Wholly inadequate thief"? Given that there are potions of master thievery and perception around, anyone at all with the ability to USE thieving skills in any degree in Baldur's gate 1 is a perfectly adequate thief. if he can get the job done, why then is he inadequate?

    As for the "Hold" issue, you are missing the point. Certainly if there is a high value target that you "NEED" to hold, you cast Hold. However the beauty of the Ghast is that every single attack that hits has the potential to hold a target. Any target thus held can't attack. That leaves the rest of the party open to focusing on other targets. You get much more 'hold' bang for your buck than any Hold spell.

    And you use it strategically, by putting him against lesser targets that he is more likely to hit. Where's the value in holding orcs and goblins? Well, for one, that means that the heavy hitters can focus on bigger threats without having to worry about getting chipped away on by those lesser targets.

    For my money, Tiax plays three roles for the cost of two classes. He's a cleric and can heal. He's a thief who can perform the usual thiefly functions. And he provides an additional combatant to the equation which is immune to a whole host of ills and can disable opponents. Name a better NPC that can do that. Plus, he is extremely funny and entertaining.

    A lot of stuff is said against multi classed characters and the "level drain" effect as a result. For my money, in almost any circumstance the multi class character isn't 'That much' lower. And they are just as valuable because they can fill multiple roles in a limited party arena. In BG1, healing is not that big a deal. There are so many potions around that a 1/2 cleric is all you really need. Unless you go uber into back stabbing, a 1/2 thief is all you need (plus potions in certain circumstances). That means one character fits both roles, leaving the rest of the group for heavier hitting fighters and wizards. Hey, presto. Value.

    jackjack
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Hexxat


    And you use it strategically, by putting him against lesser targets that he is more likely to hit. Where's the value in holding orcs and goblins? Well, for one, that means that the heavy hitters can focus on bigger threats without having to worry about getting chipped away on by those lesser targets.

    This is ridiculous. There aren't any orcs or goblins to fight in Baldur's Gate 1. /nitpick

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    And you use it strategically, by putting him against lesser targets that he is more likely to hit. Where's the value in holding orcs and goblins? Well, for one, that means that the heavy hitters can focus on bigger threats without having to worry about getting chipped away on by those lesser targets.

    This is ridiculous. There aren't any orcs or goblins to fight in Baldur's Gate 1. /nitpick
    Shhhh!!! maybe no one will notice. :-)

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    There's actually .5 Orcs
    Mulahey

    jackjackJuliusBorisov
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Dazzu said:

    There's actually .5 Orcs

    Mulahey
    Well, to be fair....
    Dorn is also a .5 Orc


    So .5 plus .5 equals 1 Orc in the game.

    DazzujackjackJuliusBorisov
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy

    @RandyMcStud - in what way is a "Wholly inadequate thief"? Given that there are potions of master thievery and perception around, anyone at all with the ability to USE thieving skills in any degree in Baldur's gate 1 is a perfectly adequate thief. if he can get the job done, why then is he inadequate?

    As for the "Hold" issue, you are missing the point. Certainly if there is a high value target that you "NEED" to hold, you cast Hold. However the beauty of the Ghast is that every single attack that hits has the potential to hold a target. Any target thus held can't attack. That leaves the rest of the party open to focusing on other targets. You get much more 'hold' bang for your buck than any Hold spell.

    And you use it strategically, by putting him against lesser targets that he is more likely to hit. Where's the value in holding orcs and goblins? Well, for one, that means that the heavy hitters can focus on bigger threats without having to worry about getting chipped away on by those lesser targets.

    For my money, Tiax plays three roles for the cost of two classes. He's a cleric and can heal. He's a thief who can perform the usual thiefly functions. And he provides an additional combatant to the equation which is immune to a whole host of ills and can disable opponents. Name a better NPC that can do that. Plus, he is extremely funny and entertaining.

    A lot of stuff is said against multi classed characters and the "level drain" effect as a result. For my money, in almost any circumstance the multi class character isn't 'That much' lower. And they are just as valuable because they can fill multiple roles in a limited party arena. In BG1, healing is not that big a deal. There are so many potions around that a 1/2 cleric is all you really need. Unless you go uber into back stabbing, a 1/2 thief is all you need (plus potions in certain circumstances). That means one character fits both roles, leaving the rest of the group for heavier hitting fighters and wizards. Hey, presto. Value.

    Yes every single attack has the chance to hold, assuming it hits. But how many hits will a ghast land before it gets killed in any difficult fight? Whereas a hold spell can effect all enemies adjacent to each other, or to your tank, and doesnt rely on a relatively frail monster surviving and hitting in melee.

    As for holding up weaker enemies whilst you focus on the stronger ones, can you give one example of a challenging fight in game where there are weak enemies that need distracting? In any case, anything that can do a non trivial amount of damage to a decent tank is going to chew through a ghast in no time at all. And if it does only trivial damage to my tank, I dont need to have something distract it.

    Again, its not that summon ghast is bad per se, its just not good enough to warrant taking Tiax. It simply isnt that decisive an ability.

    And you are seriously underestimating the impracticality of using Tiax as your party's only thief. He wouldnt need to use the odd potion, he starts with around 50% in both of the most important skills, which means he needs to drink THREE potions of perception to max his find traps, and the potions only last 30 mins. I dont recall picking up more than half a dozen in the entire game, and stores dont appear to sell many. Sorcerous sundries sells 3, Thalantyr sells 3. I cant think of any other vendors that sell them. There probably are more, but if 3 is the rule for the few who sell them, that isnt going to get you past many difficult traps when you need to drink them 3 at a time. On top of that, it will require the party to gain a further 360,000 experience before he can even max his open locks skill, which given that you pick him up in Baldur's gate, is incredibly inconvenient. And until he is maxed, you are going to have to drink a potion of mastery thievery, which are also rare to the best of my knowledge, every time you encounter a difficult lock.

    If you want a thief who has more to him than thievery, take Coran, the best archer in the game, and who starts with 100% open locks and can reach 99% find traps (which as far as I am aware allows you to disable everything). No constant reliance on rare potions, and Coran is a much better archer than Tiax is a cleric. Alternatively, you can dual class imoen to a mage or Shar teel to a thief.

  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Hexxat
    There's a pretty sizeable number of perception potions in Durlag's Tower that are pretty easy to access. Five or six, I think. Also, I suppose you could use DUHM to boost your dex a bit in a pinch. Are there that many traps outside Durlag's Tower that that won't cut it for? I honestly am not sure since I usually use Imoen and max her FT/OL skills, so I wouldn't know the minimum threshold for a lot of them.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited August 2014
    @RandyMcStud - again you are thinking in absolute extremes only. Not every single combat is killer dangerous. However, some of the 'soft' battles do take their tole. Having that extra bit of help is exactly that, a help. It is the difference between going into those tough battles at full health/spells or not.

    As for "Maxing out" thieving? I don't remember saying anything about maxing out, merely that he is useful. And in my view the line between useful and useless doesn't rest on absolute max ability. He serves as thief. Pure and simple. And he serves as cleric. AND he serves with an extra summonable above and beyond everything else.

    At the end of the day, having Tiax in my party means that I can have 3 full fighters and 2 full mages. That in and of itself more than makes up for any perceived lack on his abilities.

    But hey, beating a dead horse here.

    Post edited by the_spyder on
    jackjack
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy

    @RandyMcStud - again you are thinking in absolute extremes only. Not every single combat is killer dangerous. However, some of the 'soft' battles do take their tole. Having that extra bit of help is exactly that, a help. It is the difference between going into those tough battles at full health/spells or not.

    As for "Maxing out" thieving? I don't remember saying anything about maxing out, merely that he is useful. And in my view the line between useful and useless doesn't rest on absolute max ability. He serves as thief. Pure and simple. And he serves as cleric. AND he serves with an extra summonable above and beyond everything else.

    At the end of the day, having Tiax in my party means that I can have 3 full fighters and 2 full mages. That in and of itself more than makes up for any perceived lack on his abilities.

    But hey, beating a dead horse here.

    Well I have to be honest, no one has yet given a compelling explanation as to why summon ghast is a major advantage. I have already conceded that it isnt useless, its just not a particularly significant ability. It would be a nice perk for an already capable party member. But it is not a reason to take an otherwise weak character.

    And maxing out locks and traps is the difference between an adequate thief and an inadequate one. So no, having Tiax doesnt mean you fulfil both thief and cleric roles in the party effectively. You can get by with Tiax as your thief, you can get by without any thief at all, but if you want to disable every trap and pick every lock, Tiax and a rather limited supply of potions that you will need to drink 3 at a time is not at all practical.

    A much better option would be to recruit Coran as your thief, who can actually do the job competently, and have him as your third fighter also. Or dual Shar teel and have her as a third fighter. Or dual Imoen and have her as your second mage. And then you can get either Vicky or Branwen in place of Tiax. Heck, you can pick up faldorn for a significantly stronger priest, and use her for healing and summons, and brown bear form for a 3rd fighter (its a respectable damage dealer if a poor tank) and take a pure thief.

    And all of these characters are available somewhat earlier than Tiax. To use Tiax as a replacement for both your thief and healer at that late stage in the game means recruiting not only Tiax underleveled, but your 3rd fighter or 2nd mage underleveled too. So I think that my original remark, that he leaves much to be desired, not that he is totally useless, was reasonable.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Other (please state who)
    You are forgetting that Tiax rules all! There can be no debate.

    kaguanathe_spyderCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
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