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Most underwhelming party member (BG2)

13

Comments

  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    Nalia
    @RandyMcStud‌, "Tiax will place a mark of shame upon your forehead! All will know your treachery!"

    It's all cool though, some don't see the majesty and glory of Tiax.

    jackjack
  • FouneFoune Member Posts: 53
    Mazzy
    Mazzy is just useless, in and out of combat, I had Hexxat kill her.

    I'm a bit disapointed at Hexxat aswell, she's useful but not amazing. I wanted an awesome new backstabber/combat thief but Valygar can do that job 10 times better, I just can't see why they didn't make her a Shadowdancer or something, there's plenty of utility thiefs in the game and I don't want a pure-classed Thief to just go around disarming traps and stuff.

  • UnknownQuantityUnknownQuantity Member Posts: 242
    Cernd
    Mazzy is actually quite a powerful. I think all fighters are powerful regardless of what proficiencies they have. Any weapon can be deadly with enough proficiency points. Give Mazzy a shortbow with unlimited ammo and she will destroy casters when their protection comes down. She can tank pretty well with a shortsword and shield.

    jackjackFenghoang
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Aerie
    ...just because her whining overshadows any casting capabilities she may have.

    jackjackMeanbunny
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Hexxat
    Pure unkitted thieves are just so subpar SoA-ToB :/

    jackjack
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited August 2014
    @RandyMcStud - fair enough. we have very different opinions. One of the great things about the game is that there are a million and one ways to play it and at least as many opinions, all of which are valid. Play and enjoy.

    "Tiax Rules ALL!!"
    "One day Tiax will point and click."

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Foune said:

    Mazzy is just useless, in and out of combat, I had Hexxat kill her.

    I'm a bit disapointed at Hexxat aswell, she's useful but not amazing. I wanted an awesome new backstabber/combat thief but Valygar can do that job 10 times better, I just can't see why they didn't make her a Shadowdancer or something, there's plenty of utility thiefs in the game and I don't want a pure-classed Thief to just go around disarming traps and stuff.

    She would probably be my second choice for most underwhelming character. It might have been interesting to have her given natural weapon attacks and level drain that scaled with level like Wilson, and gave more than 1 attack per round. Then she would actually have the feel of a vampire and be effective in combat. But as she is, she isnt all that useful outside of locks and traps, and she really doesnt live up to the expectations I had for a vampire NPC.

    Also, micromanaging the cloak is just irritating. It would have been far better if her stat debuffs automatically applied in daylight instead, and link her sunlight resistance to the unremovable amulet she has.

    Meanbunny
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Mazzy

    @RandyMcStud - fair enough. we have very different opinions. One of the great things about the game is that there are a million and one ways to play it and at least as many opinions, all of which are valid. Play and enjoy.

    "Tiax Rules ALL!!"
    "One day Tiax will point and click."

    Yep, no problem with having a difference of opinion.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Has anyone mentioned Garrick yet? Talk about useless. My second choice would be Xan. He's only good at drawing up a suicide pact.

    LeonCrevsDaakjackjack
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    Cernd

    Has anyone mentioned Garrick yet? Talk about useless. My second choice would be Xan. He's only good at drawing up a suicide pact.

    It is my experience that there are no useless characters.

    In fact, these two you mention I find to be extremely effective and actually complement each other well. Garrick can cast the evocation spells Xan cannot and Xan, as a specialist mage, gets more CC spells than you could ask for + Skull Trap. Also, because of Garrick's class, his Magic Missiles and Fireballs are usually slightly more effective due to faster leveling than the party mage.

    If you haven't played a no reload, no res game, I would recommend it. You come up with all sorts of creative uses for NPCs. I have found neglected characters to be quite useful, due to necessity.

    the_spyderjackjackTuthMeanbunny
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Jlee - interesting. To be honest, every time I have tried to play with Garrick, I ended up dropping him by the time I hit Nashkal. Maybe it's a personality thing? Maybe it's a personal thing I have against bards (a failing I admit)? Maybe I am just not a really great player. Either way, he just never appealed.

    As for Xan, he is just plain depressing. Five minutes in my party and the rest of the team want to lynch him. Again, not from a game mechanics perspective because I haven't played with him that much. Just from a "I can't stand that, that.... Breathing in and out all the time. STOP IT!" mentality.

    JLeejackjack
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    @RandyMcStud‌ Dude, buddy, you can quote more than 1 person in 1 post. Do that, and don't double post. It's the most annoying thing you're doing... or that anyone can do, really.

    CrevsDaak
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Dazzu said:

    @RandyMcStud‌ Dude, buddy, you can quote more than 1 person in 1 post. Do that, and don't double post. It's the most annoying thing you're doing... or that anyone can do, really.

    Alternatively, I can respond to a different post in separate replies because its a lot clearer. Particularly when some of the posts have been very long anyway, and would be nigh on impossible to navigate if I was replying to several people at a time.

    To say its the most annoying thing anyone can do is frankly ridiculous. Dictating to people how they ought to lay out their replies is arguable somewhat more presumptuous and annoying.

  • UnknownQuantityUnknownQuantity Member Posts: 242
    Cernd
    Bards don't seem that great of a class to me. The standard song seems to have a bug and you have to sit there doing nothing while using it. They don't get any extra attacks per round except via spells. It's works out well for me though. I like to use Garricks portrait for the main NPC.

    JLee
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    Cernd

    @Jlee - interesting. To be honest, every time I have tried to play with Garrick, I ended up dropping him by the time I hit Nashkal. Maybe it's a personality thing? Maybe it's a personal thing I have against bards (a failing I admit)? Maybe I am just not a really great player. Either way, he just never appealed.

    As for Xan, he is just plain depressing. Five minutes in my party and the rest of the team want to lynch him. Again, not from a game mechanics perspective because I haven't played with him that much. Just from a "I can't stand that, that.... Breathing in and out all the time. STOP IT!" mentality.

    I have grown to like Garrick's poetry and laugh at Xan's despondency. Garrick's "Yes siirrrr" still really grates on my nerves though! I completely understand your point of view though.

    jackjack
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    Hexxat
    hexxat because she functions in so few parties I know that's rp as much as mechanics but I think its enough to render her pretty pointless.

    in the whole saga though id say Skie by a long shot

    jackjack
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,152
    Other (please state who)

    CrevsDaak said:


    Mazzy is basically the best vanilla Fighter (after Sarevok, but you get him pretty late in the game), she's beast with Shortbows, and dual-wielding Shortswords isn't something to be left unconsidered (even if piercing damage sucks), she can deal pretty good damage, and she has good natural DEX, which gives her a pretty good base AC. She isn't as good as Yoshimo in power gaming terms, but she's probably the second best Fighter (after Anomen) in terms of defense.

    Well dual wielding faces the problem of preventing you from using the weapon she has grandmastery in, unless you are ok with constantly switching out to the inventory screen. Also, if you want at least 2 stars in two weapon fighting before using it, the earliest you can get than and grandmastery is level 24.

    And even with grandmastery and the best bow in the game, she does 1d8+7 per hit as an archer. That simply isnt competitive. Korgan can use a much easier to obtain throwing hammer to do 2d4+12 per hit, even with his base strength (though granted with one fewer attack per round) and still hold a shield.

    And yes she is the best vanilla fighter in the game after Sarevok, but she is the ONLY vanilla fighter in the game after Sarevok, so that might be considered damning with faint praise :P.

    As for being the second best fighter in the game in terms of defence, compare her to Korgan. They both get nice racial saves, and she has 3 more armour class from dexterity, though 3 fewer hitpoints per level from constitution. However, even ignoring the gauntlets of dexterity, Korgan can wear a shield, several of which provide an equal or larger bonus than 3 armour, and which provide some useful secondary benefits, like elemental resistances, immunities, or missile and beholder ray reflection. And crucially, Korgan has enrage. That is another +2 armour +15 HP, and most importantly, immunity to virtually every disabling effect in the game. And his 12 intelligence means he can survive 2 hits against mind flayers compared to Mazzy's 1 hit. So I would say that Korgan is easily a better tank.
    I was saying Mazzy isn't bad--not that Korgan is better, since it's obvious, he's basically the best fighter in the game with some well-spent proficiencies. I'd say Mazzy is somewhat better than Sarevok--just because you can pick her up in SoA and she'll get more XP than Sarevok, and I mostly avoid ToB (unless I have Wheels of Prophecy and Ascension) since I don't like it much and after the first time battles aren't that challenging, so I don't use Sarevok much.

    CrevsDaak said:


    Nalia is a mage that is able to use Shortbows and Elven Chain Mail, she's actually a pretty good Party-Mage, even better than Imoen since you can have her for the whole game.

    I'd say the worst character, in power gaming means is Imoen, but since she's a Thief->Mage, which is a very good class, she actually is pretty good, but comparing to other characters, without taking classes into account, she's the worst of all (plus I never liked her character concept and she's a walking plothole so...).

    But Imoen is actually a passable thief, freeing up another party slot. With Nalia, you still need another dedicated thief. That difference alone makes Imoen far superior.

    Actually I have more problems FILLING up my entire party than maybe having another slot open for a different character. :P
    Imoen has too few XP after Spellhold, making her by far more useless that Nalia, and, even if so, you can get Jan Jansen if you want a Thief (or Yoshimo, and dual-class him later), while, besides that, Nalia, even if completely useless as a Thief, she's still not a bad character. Imoen isn't that good after all, you can pick Jan Jansen--both the best Thief (after Yoshimo) in the game and one of the most versatile characters in the game.

    JuliusBorisov
  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    Hexxat
    I reallyyyyyyyyyyyyy don't like Yoshimo he is annoying and yeah we all know "I can dance on the head of a pin as well." But I guess he is useful being the only good pure thief in the game still I don't get him into my party.

  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 329
    Cernd
    "As there are limited number of slots for the poll, I have not listed characters that I find are highly effective" and you decide to put Aerie as one of the options? She is arguably the most powerful npc in the entire series. (At least from an end-game standpoint.)

    But yeah, Cernd. If I want druid spells (and honestly, why would I?), I'll take Jaheira. A single-class druid is fairly useless, a shapeshifter even more so.

    JLee
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    edited August 2014
    Zanian said:

    and you decide to put Aerie as one of the options? She is arguably the most powerful npc in the entire series. (At least from an end-game standpoint.)

    ... And the cycle repeats once more. Make no mistake, I agree, but you'll see.

    JLee
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Hexxat
    I like Cleric/Mages as much as the next guy, but I do wish Aerie had better casting stats. Her Wisdom is what, 16? Compare that to a PC that could have it in the 20's. And no 18 Intelligence means no Time Stop or Chain Contingency.

  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    edited August 2014
    Cernd
    Aerie can get to 18 intelligence. And she can have Time Stop and Chain Contigency. I don't want to open that can of worms, but if you wish her to have it, she can attain it in ToB.

  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    Lategame Hexxat I guess. Even with use any item and spike trap, single class thieves in Throne of Bhaal are so underwhelming. Perhaps if she was a bounty hunter like Yoshimo and had access to maze traps, should would have been more useful

    CrevsDaak
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Mazzy
    Zanian said:

    "As there are limited number of slots for the poll, I have not listed characters that I find are highly effective" and you decide to put Aerie as one of the options? She is arguably the most powerful npc in the entire series. (At least from an end-game standpoint.)

    But yeah, Cernd. If I want druid spells (and honestly, why would I?), I'll take Jaheira. A single-class druid is fairly useless, a shapeshifter even more so.

    Well I have explained before (you can read my earlier comments in the thread) so I wont repeat myself at length, but I dont think she is a particularly good example of a cleric/mage, nor are cleric/mages all that great in the first place.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Yoshimo
    Perma death limits his power...

    kaguana
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    edited August 2014
    Zanian said:

    "As there are limited number of slots for the poll, I have not listed characters that I find are highly effective" and you decide to put Aerie as one of the options? She is arguably the most powerful npc in the entire series. (At least from an end-game standpoint.)

    But yeah, Cernd. If I want druid spells (and honestly, why would I?), I'll take Jaheira. A single-class druid is fairly useless, a shapeshifter even more so.

    I don't see how any Druid is useless when they get access to some of the most useful spells mid and late SoA (go ahead a tell me that woodland beings is a useless spell). And I certainly don't see how a shapeshifter is worst than a single class druid when it has a form that actually useful for fighting.

    Meanbunny
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Wilson.

    Seriously, no class levels! No equipment!

  • thespacethespace Member Posts: 1,039
    Other (please state who)
    I just voted to see the results. The more I've played these games, the less interested in power gaming I've become (it's just not necessary once you learn a handful of strategies), and am more interested in characters and their interactions with each other. This is the primary reason for my restartitis: wanting to have a PC that I like, that happens to fit in with a party that's going to have fun dynamics. Any PC that I avoid using, or have barely used, is simply because I haven't figured a way that they fit into my party, as I don't know if there are any that I outright don't like.

    JLeekaguanajackjackthe_spyder
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @thespace - And I think that is pretty much it. All of the NPCs are usable to some degree. The degree to which that happens to be depends on how you use them and what you tolerance is for whatever their weakness is. Sure there are outliers in terms of power, and sure there are those that annoy beyond reason for some. But given any reasonable player and any (reasonably) balanced combination of party members, the game is eminently playable.

    I'd love to see someone actually take the 'Winners' here and play through with just them. That might be loads of fun to watch.

    JLeejackjack
  • TinterTinter Member Posts: 152
    Minsc
    Minsc is worse than Mazzy.

    Mazzy:
    Grandmastery
    Minor buffs
    Better dex
    Better saves

    Minsc:
    Uncontrolled rage
    slower levelling
    3 levels of Druid spells...woop.
    Charm animal & Stealth (YMMV, I get little use from either)
    Strength (most easily buffed stat)

    Ultimately, I'd rather have the saves and Grandmastery than Stealth, Druid spells and some strength, I think.

    But, you know, most people have played through with him at one point. This isn't BG1 where you can have some Eldoth/Garrick/Tiax/Alora deathfight of minimal utility. All the NPCs are perfectly usable.

    jackjackFenghoang
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